Hell (Unfortunately) Yes: Why I Can’t Be a Universalist by Fr. Stephen De Young

[Nick Moser]

I would very much like to be a Universalist. In terms of my Christian hope, in terms of my emotional attachments, I would love to believe that in the end, no one would harden their heart against the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ, all would repent and believe, and all would find salvation in the age to come. I believe that this is at least a logical possibility, as there is no person who ever lived who could not repent, to whom God does not extend the offer of salvation.

In recent years, Universalism has become a popular option in the Protestant world. This is true not only of larger mainline denominations in which the idea of any condemnation coming from God has been rejected for going on two centuries, but also increasingly in evangelical circles through popular books like Rob Bell’s Love Wins. Of late, it has begun making inroads into the beliefs of some Orthodox Christians, at least in the United States, albeit in a version carefully tailored to circumvent conciliar condemnation.

It is readily apparent that the sort of naked Universalism popular in the Protestant world, the simple denial of any real judgment or condemnation of anyone in the world in any age by Christ, is incompatible with the teachings of the Orthodox Faith. (Even in this, there is occasional push-back offered by some Orthodox Christians in the form of casting doubt upon the Fifth Ecumenical Council and/or attempting to rehabilitate Origen, but I leave it to another author to address the patristic witness on this issue). Rather, therefore, the particular form of Universalism making its appeal to the Orthodox faithful is a modified one, which does not deny judgment or the existence of a hell outright, but which renders these as purgative, such that everyone is eventually saved after a time of punishment. This seems appealing to many because it seems to preserve God’s Justice in punishing sin while also reflecting great compassion. Many converts to the Orthodox Faith were attracted by the teaching of a God whose Love is more ultimate than His Justice, as opposed to the God of wrath and retribution posited in Western theories of penal substitutionary atonement, and this form of Universalism seems to be the continuation of the move in that direction.

Before proceeding further, it should be noted that the Orthodox Faith does not teach the view of ‘Heaven and Hell’ which is ingrained in popular religion at least in the United States. The idea that when a person dies, their soul goes to heaven or hell for eternity, leaving their body behind is in no wise Christian. To believe in eternal condemnation or exclusion as the teaching of the Apostles and the Fathers is not to deny the universal Resurrection, nor to believe that there is a place called ‘Hell’ of evil which is equally ultimate to the new heavens and the new earth to which we look forward. The question at hand is the nature of the condemnation issued when Christ comes to judge the living and the dead and that condemnation’s duration.




Hell (Unfortunately) Yes: Why I Can't Be a Universalist – Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy

 

[mlepfitjw]

Hi, @Nick Moser. Enjoyed reading and looking at your view, and the last part just desires me to point you to Revelation 22, the last chapter in the book of Revelation.

A view, that has been taught to me, that God has in and through Jesus Christ reconciled the whole world in and through his shed blood.

That when we believe we receive holy spirit given by God, and because of Jesus Christ we die, like he did the fleshly side of becoming lower, being raised again with Him in us, we too become alive as a new creation through our faith in Jesus Christ. Of course you may already know this.

However because of our free will choices there are people who do not believe at all, maybe have difference in doctrines and things they believe, which is totally okay we are still able to say "Hey I see your view there, I disagree but that is okay I love you and be safe".

The reason that I pointed out Revelation 22, is because that every single person that passes away, believer or non-believer will be resurrected, and there is a City of God, namely Heavenly Jerusalem. Believer, are able to enter into the Kingdom of God, where God and the Jesus (Lamb) live. However outside are the unbelievers, who have been resurrected by God (given a body that is pleasing to him) outside of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

It seems like the resurrection of life to those who are closer to God as believer who cared and loved God in and through their works of Love, the fruit of the spirit.

It seems like the resurrection of condemnation those who are father away from God as a unbeliever who did not care about God nor loved him, and their works non-love, and unfaithfulness, seem to be outside of the Light of God. Seem to be outside of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Thank for your time in reading. Nick have a great day, and hopefully didn't post anything that was contrary to the rules, for posting the position that is had by myself on this subject.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yep, this is why we listen to theologians, and not certain philosophers.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

This sort of 'Universalism' presupposes a '2-story' view of heaven and earth doesn't it?

I always thought the Orthodox teaching of heaven, earth, and hell sort of nullifies Universalism?

"The Fires of Hell are the Presence of God." - some Syrian saint.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I posted a bunch of Church Father quotes against Universalism here if you want to check it out :

Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism

I'll post them here.

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint Cyprian of Carthage - The Treatises of Cyprian - Treatise 5 (V) -
An Address to Demetrianus - 24.
(200-258 A.D.)

"An Ever-Burning Gehenna Will Burn Up The Condemned, and A Punishment Devouring With Living Flames; Nor Will There Be Any Source Whence At Any Time They May Have Either Respite Or End To Their Torments.
Souls With Their Bodies Will Be Reserved In Infinite Tortures For Suffering."



• Saint Justin Martyr - The First Apology of Justin - Chapter 52 - (100-165 A.D.)

"For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, And Shall Send Those Of The Wicked, Endued With Eternal Sensibility, Into Everlasting Fire With The Wicked Devils."



• St. Irenaeus of Lyons - Against Heresies 4:28:2 (130-189 A.D.)

"Thus also The Punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise his advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; Being Not Merely Temporal, But Eternal. For to whomever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire” [Mt 25:41],
These Will Be Damned Forever!"



• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus - Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 3.
(170–235 A.D.)

3.
..... "And To The Lovers Of Iniquity Shall Be Given Eternal Punishment. And The Fire which is Un-quenchable and Without End Awaits These Latter, and a certain Fiery Worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, But Continues Bursting Forth From The Body With Unending Pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; No Death Will Deliver Them From Punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them."




• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus -
Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 187 - 1. and 3.
(170–235 A.D.)

1.

And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which
"The Souls" Both Of The Righteous And The Unrighteous Are Detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one's deeds The Temporary Punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, A Lake Of Unquenchable Fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all.
And The Unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), Shall Be Sentenced To This Endless Punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham's bosom. But The Unrighteous are dragged toward the left by Angels Who Are Ministers Of Punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near Hear Incessantly The Agitation,
And Feel The Hot Smoke. And when that vision is so near, as They See The Terrible And Excessively Glowing Spectacle Of The Fire, They Shudder In Horror At The Expectation Of The Future Judgment, (as if they were) Already Feeling The Power Of Their Punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint John Chrysostom - Homily 9 (IX) on First Corinthians -
(349-407 A.D.)

"This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; Namely, Whether Hell Fire Have Any End.
For That IT HATH NO END Christ Indeed Declared When He Said, "Their Fire Shall Not Be Quenched, And Their Worm Shall Not Die."



• Saint Lactantius - The Divine Institutes - Book 7 (VII.) Of a Happy Life - Chapter 21. (XXI.) - Of the Torments and Punishments of Souls.
(240-320 A.D.)

"But, however, The Sacred Writings Inform Us in what manner The Wicked Are To Undergo Punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, But Indestructible, And Abiding For Ever,That It May Be Able To Hold Out Against Tortures And Everlasting Fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material."



• Tatian the Assyrian - Address of Tatian to the Greeks - Chapter 14. (XIV)
(120-180 A.D.)

"And as we, to whom it now easily happens To Die, Afterwards Receive The Immortal With Enjoyment,
Or The Painful With Immortality ......."



• St. Hilary of Poitiers - On Matthew 5.12 - (300-368 A.D.)

Thus there will be given No Rest to the pagans nor will the onset of death bring the peace they desire. Instead, Their Bodies Are Destined To Suffer Eternally Because Their Punishment Of Eternal Fire Will Be Physical. What they endure, along with everything else destined for eternity, Will Have No End. If pagans are given a body destined for eternity in order to suffer the fire of judgment, how great is the impiety of those saints who doubt the glory of eternity Since Eternal Punishment Is Certain For Sinners!



• Saint Augustine of Hippo - Enchiridion 112-113 - (354-430 A.D.)

"It Is In Vain, then, that some, indeed Very Many, Make Moan Over The Eternal Punishment, And Perpetual, Unintermitted Torments Of The Lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture, but, at the suggestion Of Their Own Feelings, they soften down everything that seems hard, and give a milder turn to statements which they think are rather designed to terrify than to be received as literally true."



• Saint Maximus the Confessor - Commentary on the Our Father - (580-662 A.D.)

"Indeed there exists but one happiness, a communion of life with the Word, The Loss Of Which Is An Endless Punishment Which Goes On For All Eternity. And that is why abandoning his body and whatever is the body’s he strives intensely toward that communion of life with God, thinking that the only loss – even he were master of everything on earth – would be in the failure of the deification by grace which he pursues."



• St. Andrew of Caesarea - Commentary on the Apocalypse - 6th century

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

"This smoke must imply either the labored breath that cornes out along With The Groaning Of Those Being Punished Emanating Up From Below, or the smoke coming forth from The Fire Punishing Those Who Have Fallen. It is to ascend forever and ever, it says, that we might learn That It Is Endless, just as the bliss of the righteous (will be endless), in like manner also, The Torment Of The Sinners."



• St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lectures 18:19 - (313-386 A.D.)

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past."



• St. John Chrysostom - Homily 3 on 2nd Thessalonians - (349-407 A.D.)

"There are many men, who form good hopes not by abstaining from their sins, but by thinking that hell is not so terrible as it is said to be, but milder than what is threatened, and temporary, not eternal; and about this they philosophize much. But I could show from many reasons, and conclude from the very expressions concerning hell, that it is not only not milder, But Much More Terrible Than Is Threatened. But I do not now intend to discourse concerning these things. For the fear even from bare words is sufficient, though we do not fully unfold their meaning. But that it is not temporary, hear Paul now saying, concerning those who know not God, and who do not believe in the Gospel, that “they shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction.” How then is that temporary which is everlasting? “From the face of the Lord,” he says. What is this? He here wishes to say how easily it might be. For since they were then much puffed up, there is no need, he says, of much trouble; it is enough that God comes and is seen, and all are involved in punishment and vengeance. His coming only to some indeed will be Light, but to others vengeance."
.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Marcus Minucius Felix - Octavius 34-35 - (226-260 A.D.)

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be Restored For Punishment... Nor Is There Either Measure Nor End To These Torments. That Clever Fire Burns The Limbs And Restores Them, Wears Them Away And Yet Sustains Them, Just As Fiery Thunderbolts Strike Bodies But Do Not Consume Them"



• Saint Justin Martyr - First Apology, 21 - (100-165 A.D.)

"But, as we have said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that only those are deified who have lived near God in holiness and virtue; And We Believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent Are Punished In Everlasting Fire."



• St. Theophylact of Ochrid - Explanation of the Gospel According to St. Luke, Chap. 16
(1055-1107 A.D.)

"A conclusion to be drawn Against The Origenists who say that there will be a time when there is an end to hell, that the sinners will be united with the righteous and with God, and thus God will be all in all. Let us hear what Abraham says, that they who would pass from hence to you, or from thence to us, cannot. Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to go from the place apportioned to the righteous to the place of sinners, and likewise, Abraham teaches us, it is impossible to go from the place of punishment to the place of the righteous. And Abraham, I Presume, Is More Trustworthy Than Origen."



• St. Gregory Palamas - To the Nun Xenia, P.G. 150:1043-1088 -
(1296-1359 A.D.)

"Although in the future restoration, when the bodies of the righteous shall be raised, the bodies of the lawless and sinners will also be raised, they will be raised only so as to be subjected to the ‘second death’, That Is, To Eternal Torment, the unsleeping worm, the gnashing of teeth, the outer and inpenetrable darkness, to dark and inextinguishable Gehenna. The prophet says, ‘The lawless and the sinners shall be burnt together, and there shall be none to quench. For this is the ‘second death’, as John teaches us in his Apocalypse."



• 5th Ecumenical Council - Second Council of Constantinople -
(553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)


• The Capitula of the Council
_________________________________________________________

11.

"If anyone does not Anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris,Nestorius, Eutyches and ORIEGEN as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and Anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and if anyone does not equally Anathematized all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned:
Let Him Be Anathema"



• The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen
____________________________________________________________

9.

"If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and Wicked Doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them."

.

 

[ArmyMatt]

"The Fires of Hell are the Presence of God." - some Syrian saint.

St Isaac.

 

[JSRG]

• 5th Ecumenical Council - Second Council of Constantinople -
(553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)


• The Capitula of the Council
_________________________________________________________

11.

"If anyone does not Anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris,Nestorius, Eutyches and ORIEGEN as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and Anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and if anyone does not equally Anathematized all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned:
Let Him Be Anathema"



• The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen
____________________________________________________________

9.

"If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and Wicked Doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them."
.

The anathemas of Emperor Justinian were not from the Second Council of Constantinople, but were from a letter he sent out years earlier.

If you are simply citing him as a "Church father" that is all right, but it is misleading to put it under the umbrella of the council.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The anathemas of Emperor Justinian were not from the Second Council of Constantinople, but were from a letter he sent out years earlier.

If you are simply citing him as a "Church father" that is all right, but it is misleading to put it under the umbrella of the council.

I believe they were, however, accepted at this council, as well as subsequent ones, because the anathema of Origen came from somewhere.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Nick Moser I would very much like to be a Universalist.

Then be one. You will be in excellent company, such as St. Isaac of Syria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and others whom I cannot recall at this time. Neither of these men were condemned at any ecumenical council as heretics, even though their teaching was well-known.

In terms of my Christian hope, in terms of my emotional attachments, I would love to believe that in the end, no one would harden their heart against the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ, all would repent and believe, and all would find salvation in the age to come. I believe that this is at least a logical possibility, as there is no person who ever lived who could not repent, to whom God does not extend the offer of salvation.

God, in His immense love, has already saved all. (Romans 5:12-19). As sin entered the world through the act of one man, so justification has entered the world through the act of one Man. The offer is not to salvation, for Christ has done that once and for all, but rather to enter into the reality of His restoration of all things. Those who ignore this shall suffer the effect of their choices.

In recent years, Universalism has become a popular option in the Protestant world.

It is also becoming well-known and accepted in Orthodoxy. Men such as Fr. John Behr, a professor at St. Vladimir's Seminary, are holding to it. He has written very glowingly about the musings of David Bentley Hart in his new book. A book, BTW, to which no one has yet given a good response in opposition.

It is readily apparent that the sort of naked Universalism popular in the Protestant world, the simple denial of any real judgment or condemnation of anyone in the world in any age by Christ, is incompatible with the teachings of the Orthodox Faith.

This is a bald-faced lie. No Universalist teachs that there is any escape from the choices we make here. St. Paul and Christ are both very clear that what we choose in this life determines what we experience in the next - suffering for the wicked in God's chastening fire, or bliss for those who have applied themselves to ascesis in this life. If you are going to make a statement about the opposing side, please take the time to get it right.

(Even in this, there is occasional push-back offered by some Orthodox Christians in the form of casting doubt upon the Fifth Ecumenical Council and/or attempting to rehabilitate Origen, but I leave it to another author to address the patristic witness on this issue). Rather, therefore, the particular form of Universalism making its appeal to the Orthodox faithful is a modified one, which does not deny judgment or the existence of a hell outright, but which renders these as purgative, such that everyone is eventually saved after a time of punishment.

Funny, that's what Christ taught also. But the Bible isn't as important as our personal desire for revenge on the wicked, is it? You know, my personal opinion of those who lust after the eternal burning of the wicked is that they have no idea of the depths of their own sin. Those who cheered for the death of the man who assassinated the Trump supporter in Wisconsin have no idea that given the right circumstances, they could have done the same thing.

BTW - Jesus teaching on the issue of limited justice is found in Matthew 5: 21 - 26. It is in the larger context of being like our heavenly Father.

This seems appealing to many because it seems to preserve God’s Justice in punishing sin while also reflecting great compassion. Many converts to the Orthodox Faith were attracted by the teaching of a God whose Love is more ultimate than His Justice, as opposed to the God of wrath and retribution posited in Western theories of penal substitutionary atonement, and this form of Universalism seems to be the continuation of the move in that direction.

It's not a question of love being more ultimate than justice. It is a question of both love and justice properly applied. We have been given the standard of justice by God Himself - lex talionis - which means that the punishment fits the offense. There is no sin that warrants eternal burning in torture. None. Unless you accept perverse Roman Catholic ideology regarding sin and punishment as put forth by Anselm and Aquinas.

Before proceeding further, it should be noted that the Orthodox Faith does not teach the view of ‘Heaven and Hell’ which is ingrained in popular religion at least in the United States. The idea that when a person dies, their soul goes to heaven or hell for eternity, leaving their body behind is in no wise Christian. To believe in eternal condemnation or exclusion as the teaching of the Apostles and the Fathers is not to deny the universal Resurrection, nor to believe that there is a place called ‘Hell’ of evil which is equally ultimate to the new heavens and the new earth to which we look forward. The question at hand is the nature of the condemnation issued when Christ comes to judge the living and the dead and that condemnation’s duration.

The real question at hand is this: what kind of love would it be to create sentient beings (especially when you have no need of them to enhance your glory), foreknowing that they would fall and be damaged by sin, and foreknowing that this sin would condemn the majority of them to eternal, conscious suffering which would never end? God didn't have to create anything. The idea that He would create in foreknowledge of the Fall sentient beings capable of failing means that just as the Calvinists say, it was (is) His will to create unto suffering. All creation, whether it be God in Creation or me making a piece of stained glass for a friend, is done to a specific telos. Therefore, if eternal conscious hell is true, then God is:

A.) willing that people suffer.

B.) created certain human beings to that end.

C.) not omniscient or omnipotent as either He didn't know what would happen or can't figure out a way in which to overcome the effects of the Fall in man.

D.) able to be defeated, since His express will is that all be saved (1Timothy 2:4) and yet He cannot bring that to pass.

Josef Goebbels is rumored to have stated that if you tell a lie long enough and long enough, soon it become accepted as truth. We have already seen this take place with the Covid virus and all the lies about it. In my opinion, this is the same thing. For five hundered years, Apokatastasis was taught in the Christian world and was the majority opinion. Somehow, the wretched anthropology (man is a piece of dung)and severe justice of Augustine (babies are sent to hell to burn forever) became the prominant theology, anthropology, and soteriology of the Roman Empire and has infested everything.

You believe what you want....I desire a God who is powerful enough to overcome all sin, loving enough to do it to all people, and wise enough to find a way to convert even the most stubborn, either here or now.

And as for the Fathers of the Church....they were not infallible. Therefore, what they said must be put against as single rule of faith which has the acceptance by East and West of being divine revelation - the Sacred Scriptures. Eternal Conscious Torment creates a massive interpretive problem with the Scriptures and it is time that the contradictions and problems it causes is looked at by the Church.




Hell (Unfortunately) Yes: Why I Can't Be a Universalist – Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy

 

[Light of the East]

I posted a bunch of Church Father quotes against Universalism here if you want to check it out :

Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism

I'll post them here..

I will just respond with a single quote:

For instance, the first quote we are given is from The Epistle of Barnabas (70 - 130 AD).

“The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death, with punishment.”

In what language was this epistle written? A simple Google search reveals that it was written in Greek. By now, you should immediately realize that there could be a problem with the translation of this epistle from Greek to Latin, and then to the English we read. To check on this, I first found the epistle in the English translation. The above quoted part is Verse 1 in Chapter 20.

Now let’s look at the Greek:

δὲ το μ λαος ὁδ ς ἐστιν σκολιὰ καὶ κατ ρας μεστ .ὁδὸς ἐστιν θάνατον αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας,

The Greek word here is aionios. Aionios, as the Greek linguist, Dr. Ilaria Ramelli, has noted, does not mean “eternal.” There is a specific word for eternal in Greek. That word is “adidios.” But when you, as a translator, have been taught by your professor that aionios means eternal, then you follow what you have been taught as a good member of the Church. It is also interesting to note that the full quote in English translation uses the words “thou” and “thee,” which belong more to Medieval English than the Greek language. This distinctly points to a translation bias from translators who did not know Greek and were following the erroneous translation from Greek to Latin which started with Augustine. We can discount the Epistle of Barnabas as being some sort of indelible proof of eternal hell.

In other words, you are not reading the original language of the Fathers, which is Greek. You are reading a third translation (Greek mistranslated to Latin and mistranslated to English). I don't think you even take the time to do research on this, do you?

Have you thought about this -- if "aionios" (that highly disputed word) clearly and without any ambiguity meant eternal, then how could it have been possible for so many people in the first five centuries of the Greek speaking world to have taught otherwise?

Might I have an answer for this question?

 

[Light of the East]

I believe they were, however, accepted at this council, as well as subsequent ones, because the anathema of Origen came from somewhere.

They were accepted under the same threats that Justinian used on Pope Virgilius - throwing him in prison for months until Virgilius gave up and accepted the council as legitmate. It's sometimes hard to oppose someone who has a record of thuggish behavior and will chop your head off if you oppose him. This whole council has the smell of dead fish left to rot in the sun, and it is time that a new council is called to do what was done with the Robber's Council - clean up this stinking mess.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

They were accepted under the same threats that Justinian used on Pope Virgilius - throwing him in prison for months until Virgilius gave up and accepted the council as legitmate. It's sometimes hard to oppose someone who has a record of thuggish behavior and will chop your head off if you oppose him. This whole council has the smell of dead fish left to rot in the sun, and it is time that a new council is called to do what was done with the Robber's Council - clean up this stinking mess.

If you become Orthodox You Must Except The Canons and Councils of The Church.


.

 

[Light of the East]

Just out of curiousity I looked up Fr. Steven DeYoungs bio:

Here's what I found:

Fr. Stephen De Young was born in Redlands, California.

He holds a Master of Divinity degree from Westminster Theological Seminary,

Uh huh! Calvinism. I suspected as much. I read somewhere an Orthodox priest ( should have bookmarked the quote) who was lamenting the numbers of Western converts who were coming into Orthodoxy and bringing their baggage with them, destroying Orthodoxy in the process.

Eternal burning hell is not just baggage, it is a steamer trunk.

 

[Light of the East]

If you become Orthodox You Must Except The Canons and Councils of The Church..

Does that include the Robber's Council?

I do accept all seven Ecumenical Councils. I just don't accept Justinian's unwarranted and unauthorized additions to the council. Modern scholarship has shown them to be highly suspect (probably bogus).

 

[ArmyMatt]

They were accepted under the same threats that Justinian used on Pope Virgilius - throwing him in prison for months until Virgilius gave up and accepted the council as legitmate. It's sometimes hard to oppose someone who has a record of thuggish behavior and will chop your head off if you oppose him. This whole council has the smell of dead fish left to rot in the sun, and it is time that a new council is called to do what was done with the Robber's Council - clean up this stinking mess.

if that were the case only, they would not have been accepted by the 6th, Qunisext, or 7th Councils. there were also local councils prior to Constantinople 2 which condemned universalism and Origen.

plus it's in our prayer life.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Just out of curiousity I looked up Fr. Steven DeYoungs bio:

Here's what I found:

Fr. Stephen De Young was born in Redlands, California.

He holds a Master of Divinity degree from Westminster Theological Seminary,

Uh huh! Calvinism. I suspected as much. I read somewhere an Orthodox priest ( should have bookmarked the quote) who was lamenting the numbers of Western converts who were coming into Orthodoxy and bringing their baggage with them, destroying Orthodoxy in the process.

Eternal burning hell is not just baggage, it is a steamer trunk.

he also holds an MDiv from St Tikhon's, and an MTh from the Antiochian House of Studies.