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Hell, the Lake of Fire, and Punishment.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Nick_Loves_Abba, Mar 21, 2002.

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  1. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I guess my biggest issue lately has been that issue of hell, and eternal punishment. I just don't know what the point is. I'm sure it's because I'm human, and as human fail to see the Bigger picture, but here's my question.

    Why does GOD send people to suffer for ever and ever for eternity, if they have absolutely no chance of learning from their mistakes. Punishment is to get people to learn isnt it? When I was a small child mom would send me to my room, and I would learn my lesson most of the time. Isn't it pointless sending someone to eternal suffering, if they have no way of repenting? WHy wouldn't GOD just, poof, and make them no more?

    I'm sure their is a reason, but I have yet to see it.

    The concept of hell is scary, I just hope my faith and my Christian walk is straight enough to be able to avoid hell.
     
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  2. StogusMaximus

    StogusMaximus Well-Known Member

    +6
    Protestant
    You have the opportunity to learn, right now. Salvation comes from faith, you have to believe that you are saved through the blood of Jesus. Even when you have not seen Jesus, or Heaven or Hell, you have to have faith.

    If you are sent to Hell for a couple of days, then given a second chance, where is faith? There is no faith. You have an absolute knowledge of Jesus, Heaven and Hell. It is easy to choose salvation through Jesus when you have actually seen and suffered in Hell.

    Going to Hell is not God's way to punish you, or to make you learn your lesson. You are given the chance to choose while you are here on Earth. You either say "Yes God" or "No". Think of it as your dad saying "Son do you want to go with me to the movies?" You either say "Yes Dad" or "No". If you say "No", your dad is not going punish you by making you stay home. You made the decision to not go with your father. The same goes with Heaven and Hell.

    God is saying, "Son, do you want to be with me forever?"
    How are you going to answer?
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>Why does GOD send people to suffer for ever and ever for eternity, if they have absolutely no chance of learning from their mistakes.

    More than anything we have to know and have faith that God is good. Even when we do not understand everything, we can know that God is good, right and true. There is no guilt, there is no wrong in Him in any way. The enemy, satan trys to make God look bad, but it is a lie of the enemy.

    You have to understand the duel nature of God. It was through Moses that the law was given. Through the law we learn the consequences of sin. There are those, esp. young people who think that there is no consequences. They think you can do whatever you want, hurt as many people as they want, without have to pay a price for it.

    We learn that there are not only consequences to sin. "What goes around comes around", "you will reap what you sow". We also learn that God is a God of absolute justice. You can be sure that the punishment fits the crime. Those who do not accept the forgiveness of God will only get what is justly and rightfully due to them for the crimes they commited. They will condemn themselves and proclaim that their punishment fits the crime and it is due to them.

    The really good news, the really amazing news is, that God is a God of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness also. So how can a God of justice, also be a God of Mercy. Because He sent His Son to pay the price for our sin, so that we could be forgiven. I for one just do not understand how anyone can turn down God's wonderful offer of forgiveness. It cost Him a lot, It cost Jesus His life, in our place. It was through one man: Adam, that sin entered into the world, and through one man: Christ, that the price was paid for that sin.

    When my son was young, if he broke something, like a garage window, I was responsable to pay for that window. That is what the law and justice is all about. So those who refuse to accept forgiveness, can pay their own price. In the case of young people, that means they can join a work detail and go pick up garbage along side of the road, to pay for having broken the window.

    God is a just God, and the punishment fits the crime. The really neat thing is when someone wrongs us. God says to put it on His account, and He will make it right. So, we are not only forgiven, but we can forgive those who wrong us and hurt us in some way. Because we know that God will more than repay us, so that all things work out for the best, for them that love God and are called according to His purpose. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  4. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>I just hope my faith and my Christian walk is straight enough to be able to avoid hell.

    If we walk in love, we will not fall short of the grace of God. The main thing is just to treat people right.
     
  5. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    He doesn't. The suffering is not ceaseless, but the the wages of sin is - death (from which there is no resurrection).
    That's pretty close to what He will do.
    Eze 28:19 ...thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
     
  6. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    They they suffer for a little while? Or death is the end of it? Then the Lake of Fire is just for the demons and the AC and the False prophet and the Devil?
     
  7. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    You have to understand that eternal punishment or "hell" is a place of eternal conscienceness. It is a place where God is not. People are existing in a state of their own evil.
    Mark 9:43-48
    43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    (KJV)

    the term "their worm dieth not" is a symbol of a gnawing conscienceness. Also this verse shows their existance in hell
    Rev 14:11
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    (KJV)

    You can see from the context that people are tormented for ever and ever and they have no rest. This verse would make no sense if they were simply burned up.
     
  8. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    That verse is speaking about this mortal life.
     
  9. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Wow I'm being thrown two different sides at once... More confusion -
     
  10. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Are the physical hands, feet, and eyes of the damned eternal? Do they have immortal flesh?
     
  11. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Don't be confused. Jesus said BODIES go into hell. They burn to ashes in "eternal fire." Consciousness ceases. They suffer eternal death from which there is no resurrection.
    Eternal fire has already burned out once, as it will again. Those who suffered the vengeance of eternal fire are now dead, unconscious.

    2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

    JUDE 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    Where is the "eternal punishment or 'hell' is a place of eternal conscienceness" in these verses, which GOD tells us is an example?
     
  12. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

    +91
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Another question to ask is, "Why does God send people to heaven for ever and ever to enjoy eternal bliss?"

    People have a choice and many chances from learning from their mistakes. When we all stand before God for judgement, no one will be able to point an accusing finger at God and claim "I didn't have a chance!" Jesus said every thought, every idle word will be accounted for at judgement. There the the unrighteous will see every chance they had to choose Jesus Christ as Saviour. And they will see with every chance they had, they said no. And why did they say no? Jesus said it very plainly in John 3:19;

    "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
     
  13. Tyler

    Tyler Member

    182
    +0
    Read your bibles!
    Mathew13:42
    And He will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Doesn't sound like anyone having fun there!

    Luke13:28
    There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. Not to cheery there!

    Mathew24:51
    And will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Regardless what anyone trys to tell you, hell is not a place where I would like to be!

    Don't worry you will also know exactly where you are...unfortunately.
     
  14. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Let’s look at these further verses to build my case stronger.
    Rev 20:10
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
    where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever
    and ever.
    (KJV)
    Surly you can see the context. The idea of having no rest, ever and only torment for ever
    and ever. This is the same context as my previous post shows about the state of the
    unrighteous dead.

    Now notice this verse and the all important context of the use of
    166 aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os);

    from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):

    KJV-- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


    Matt 25:46
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life
    eternal.

    See the use of everlasting punishment and the use of eternal life. If the life is eternal the punishment is just a eternal. If the soul and body were annihilated then the punishment in the form of torment would have to cease. You also have to understand that the word destruction does not mean annihilation or complete obliteration. You must also realise when verses talking about the dead knowing nothing, has a reference point. For example.
    Eccl 9:5-6
    5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither
    have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have
    they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
    (KJV)

    See the reffernce point in the last sentence.
    “under the sun” the dead are not conscience
    of what is going on “under the sun” If we
    take a wooden litteral interpretation of these
    verses we would also have to believe that
    the dead have no reward and this is refuted
    in many passages.

    As for
    2 Pet 2:6
    6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with
    an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    (KJV)

    and
    Jude 1:7
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
    themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,
    suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    (KJV)

    See how this is an example of Gods judgment. First in turning the city and people in to ashes then having them suffer the vengeance of “eternal” fire. You can’t overlook the word eternal. It is used so many times as to make a very strong point. Eternal fire,judgment, torment, smoke, etc. . These verses can be used as a clear light to shine on the obscure passages so as to interpret them correctly. Make no mistake punishment is eternal
    with no rest.
     
  15. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Eze 28:19 ...thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    The eternal fate of the "King of Tyre" is described above. Whether you believe it is a symbolic reference to Satan or a literal reference to one man, the result is the same. He shall not "be" any more. Wiped out of existence.

    The Psalmist agrees:
    Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

    No more existence for the wicked. If they were in existence consciously suffering ceaselessly throughout eternity, there would be a "place" for them. But this supposed place "shall not be."

    Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Consume away. Gone. Vanished. Into smoke.
     
  16. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

    75
    +0
    All of your old testament quotes are referring to earthly life. Theres no place for them on earth, he wasn't talking about eternity. Their mortal bodies vanish.

    According to false teaching such as this, there is no punishment of evildoers. You might as well tell your unbelieving friends to rape, murder, lie, and steal all they want because they simply vanish, God won't hold them responsible. Naturally the Bible teaches otherwise, they will be in everlasting torment.

    "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments , and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame . But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented ." Luke 16:22-25

    Never once did he say either of those. Noone is ever in a state of non-consciousness, the rich man AND the beggar Lazarus were alive and conscious in hell.

    John 5:29 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

    The evil aren't resurrected just so they can "vanish" later, they're resurrected to be given their everlasting bodies to experience the lake of fire they've chosen as home.
     
  17. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    I don't believe you read all of my posts on this thread, otherwise you would have seen that Jesus did teach that bodies go into hell.

    Yes, there is indeed punishment for evildoers. They will physically suffer in the flames of hell until their death, and they will have horrible mental torment (weeping and gnashing of teeth) because they will realize that they could have had an immortal existence through Jesus.

    Unless you are prepared to tell me that the bodies of the rich man and Lazarus didn't remain in the grave but went to "hell" and "Abraham's bosom," I will believe it is only a story that is not in "real time." Why? They had eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms. Jesus told us, "for a spirit hath not flesh."
     
  18. websitejack

    websitejack Having done all ~ Stand

    48
    +2
    There is another option to concider...

    The Lake of Fire is definatly a place a severe punishment, and as was mentioned earlier could have a duration that has an end at some point in the future.

    I have however been reading recently people expressing the view of an eventual salvation of all.

    On the surface it seemed totally at odds with scripture and everything I had studied before.

    The view that all might eventually enter into the Kingdom of God is pretty radical, but there is actually some compelling scripture that would indicate such a thing.

    hmmmm....

     

    Jack
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    (quote) Wow I'm being thrown two different sides at once... More confusion -

    Confusion does not come from God. He gives us a spirit of power, strength and a sound mind.

    The very first thing we need is to have discernment to know what is of God, what is of the enemy of God and what is of the flesh or the mind of man.

    Do a study of the divine nature and the mind of Christ. No one is saved unless they the divine nature of God and the mind of Christ. Children of God, really do reflect their father. Read the sermon on the mount. Read Ephisians. That will help you to begin to be able to discern what is of God and what is not of God.
     
  20. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
    Married
    Only those that know God and decide to reject Him for evil have anything to fear. God's is love, and learning to have faith and trust in Him to manage judgment is a good thing. Think of Him as the best loving Father you can imagine, and them multiply that times 1000. He has the power to do as He says, but I'm very sure that He will judge all things perfectly and give everything in His creation all the grace they want. Choosing to not want it is dangerous.
     
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