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Hell question

Discussion in 'LCMS / WELS / ELS / LCC' started by Ann77, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    I'm not a Lutheran, I'm somewhat in-between Lutheran and Reformed. I'm interested in your take on this.

    Does God create people to send to hell and then still calls for them to repent when they're unable to? Would this make God responsible for evil? I’ve been told this by many Calvinists. It's frightening me. I've seen many verses like Roman's 9:11 to support this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
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  2. Gregorikos

    Gregorikos Mystic

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    God didn't make hell for people. He made it for the devil. Matthew 25:41

    And his will is that everyone be saved. 2 Peter 3:9
     
  3. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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  4. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    The Lutheran understanding of salvation and damnation is this:

    Salvation, from beginning to end, is entirely of God. Damnation, however, from beginning to end, is entirely of man. So, God is not the source of evil; He does not create, bestow or impute sin upon man, nor create people for damnation, but anyone who resists God's grace, namely, the person and works of Jesus Christ, through the message of the Gospel, brought by the Holy Spirit, are already condemned.

    As Scriptures plainly says, whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe is already condemned. John 3:16-18 Mark 16:16

    I think what you're referring to is the teaching of High Calvinism, which the Lutheran Church emphatically rejects.

    Simply explained: Calvinists rightly teaches that salvation is entirely by God's grace (monergism), but are in error in their (various) teachings of election for damnation, or God passing over people. That's not what Romans 9 teaches. The Gospel is for everyone, not just the elect. Arminians, on the other hand, a counter-reaction movement to Calvinism, rightly teaches that damnation is by the will and work of man, but wrongly attribute free will in matters of salvation (synergism), as if a dead person can will himself to life. That is, our will is not the instrument of conversion, it's the object of conversion. God makes willing out of the unwilling; He makes the dead alive.

    So, both the Calvinistic system and the Arminian system are logical in their own right, but not entirely Biblical, and regrettably, they ultimately both can be the source of confusion and doubt. The Lutheran view embraces the paradox as an article of faith, as it is recognised that there are many mysteries in Scripture we cannot fully understand, yet we uphold it as true.
     
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  5. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    This is what Paul has been arguing through the letter to the Romans.

    Romans 9:30:31
    What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

    Paul is explaining that it is God's call, God's election, through and in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law.

    Faith not works, faith and not man's will.

    Now with this in mind, i.e., God's purpose; that faith is the platform of salvation, not works of the law.

    Romans 9:11-12
    For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    God's is choosing the lineage of Jacob for His ultimate purpose, the gift of the Christ. The important phrase 'so that God’s purpose'.

    Choosing Jacob is not about election to salvation but His purpose through Jacob, ultimately the Christ.
     
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  6. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I agree with all the above comments and would like to add the following notes:

    This passage is not about personal salvation but about the selection of a nation / Israel which is now surpassed by the selection of Gentiles to be the Church of God. We know this to be the case from comparing Gen 12:3 and Mal 1:2-3 and from Paul's arguments in Rom 9 and other chapters. Reformed are wrong. Stick with Lutherans.

    In Pro 16:4, God doesn't make people wicked but He destines the wicked to punishment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  7. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    Thanks everyone for your response.

    Since both hyper and High Calvinism reject the permissive will of God, is it true that they think God can't know anything unless He decreed every choice and thought in His creation? I hear from them that not even our thoughts are our own :confused2:

    Wouldn't this mean, in the book of Job, when God is talking to satan, He would be really having a one-on-one conversation with Himself since God put the thoughts in satan's mind via a decree?

    That sounds blasphemous. I don't understand how this makes any sense.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  8. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    There are several Calvinist forums, perhaps someone there can comment about this. I attended a Reformed church for over 2 years and never heard anything that I would disagree with. But reading about their theology, there are incorrect beliefs.
     
  9. J_B_

    J_B_ New Member

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    Since Lutherans don't subscribe to a Reformed theology, they don't agree with these sorts of things. You're right. It doesn't make sense.
     
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