Hell or the lake of fire?

[victorinus]

Due to lack of proper teaching.

how do you determine what is proper teaching?

 

[Dave-W]

how do you determine what is proper teaching?

The 5 main ministries in Eph 4 are said to exist in part to "equip the saints." That means that the language sources, the principles of hermenutics and exegesis that the pastor was taught in seminary should be transmitted to his/her congregation. A lack of doing that is a lack of proper teaching.

 

[Der Alte]

Even an "addition" is a loss of original understanding.

Not necessarily.
In the OT three of the 10 commandments, in Hebrew, are only one word. We use four or five words to translate them. The Jews call them the ten words.
Deu 5:17 לא תרצח׃ Thou shalt not kill
Deu 5:18 ולא תנאף׃ Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 ולא תגנב׃ Neither shalt thou steal.

 

[Dave-W]

n the OT three of the 10 commandments, in Hebrew, are only one word.

You actually have all 3 written as 2 words.

"lo" לא means "no..."
"v'lo" ולא means "and no...."

No killing
and no adultery
and no stealing

The Jews call them the ten words.

Correct. That is because "word" does not mean the same in Hebrew as it does in modern day usage in English.

And pastors are not teaching this kind of thing to their congregations WHY??

 

[victorinus]

That means that the language sources, the principles of hermenutics and exegesis that the pastor was taught in seminary should be transmitted to his/her congregation.

what seminary?

 

[Dave-W]

what seminary?

For us it would be the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute.
For other groups they would have their own.

As a catholic, I am sure your parish priest attended one of the Catholic seminaries.

 

[victorinus]

For us it would be the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute.
For other groups they would have their own.

As a catholic, I am sure your parish priest attended one of the Catholic seminaries.

does it make any difference?

 

[Dave-W]

does it make any difference?

As to content - yes.

But at least they are teaching you and that is the main thing.

 

[victorinus]

As to content - yes.

But at least they are teaching you and that is the main thing.

really? -
they are all teaching you
-but-
it does make a difference what they are teaching

 

[Hillsage]

where did you find the 'Biblical definition of "death:"'?

He didn't find it in the bible. But here is a biblical definition.

When Jesus "gave up his spirit" he 'breathed his last'....and expired/died.
When Jesus raised the maiden from death...."her spirit returned".

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[Hillsage]

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire for the destruction of death and hell along with any 'works' worthy of death in the lives of people whose name is not written. And their name will not be 'written' until their knee bows and their tongue confesses Jesus is Lord. For "the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH"....in 'the lake of Fire'. Sinners are not enemies to God, unlike the carnal minded church of today thinks.

Them being in the lake of fire has nothing to do with them not knowing Jesus on earth. It is a judgment based upon works in the book of life.

REV 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As all true believers should know, going to heaven isn't based upon 'YOUR WORKS', it is based upon 'THE WORK' of Jesus for ALL, on the cross.

And since it is "allotted unto man once to die" then the second death 'eternal hell' 'eternal separation' theology of orthodoxy is a false doctrine going all the way back to the 'then' orthodox organized church who killed anyone who disagreed with 'their' theology and tried to destroy all their written works.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is
not known."

 

[-57]

Hebrews says that our God is a consuming fire, revelations says that all sinners will have a part in the eternal lake of fire (not that they will be eternal in it as well but have a part). My understanding is that in my case I was an athiest and I felt tortured before being touched by the Holy Spirit, thus my former separation from Lord was in a sense a PART of the eternal lake of fire. I still have not read where the orthodox gets the claim that sinners will burn forever in hell if hell and death is to be cast into the lake of fire - that is by grace sinners will have a part or a taste of hell before repenting and accepting their lord and savior Jesus, though some may not taste death God wills that all his children be saved from hell.
Its a much more understandable then my experience with the Roman Catholic view that made me terrified as a child and kept me away from church. Without that experience though I might not have ever paid attention when the lord came knocking on my door.
What are your views on hell and death being tossed into the eternal lake of fire when Christ returns?
Is hell according to orthodox belief, really the same as what the Bible teaches?

What does this verse mean?

2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[Hillsage]

What does this verse mean?

2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Are you familiar with Young's Concordance? It's been an accepted theological work since 1879. He also authored the following translation.

Young's Literal Translation
2TH 1:9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Other translations not committed to forcing the Greek to line up with the doctrine of ETERNAL Hell.

The Emphatic Diaglott
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who a just penalty shall pay, destruction age-lasting, from face to the Lord and from the glory of the strength of him

Below is your same verse from some other respected works of scholarship which have stood the test of time and still valued by those capable of discerning value and truth.

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible
1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might—

Concordant Literal Translation
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength --

Those whose hearts require a "justice", "just penalty", "a penalty", "the justice" which relates to an ETERNITY of torture, have merely made God's image reflect that of a 'deceitful and desperately wicked heart'. So in answer to your question above; That's what your quoted translation's verse means...to those of us who believe differently...in bibles translated more correctly. In our opinion of course.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Truth is a fire. It's more than just a fire, it's an everlasting fire. It's a spiritual fire. Imagine a teacher in a class, and he tells his students: "Truth is fire; go now, and purge the world with fire." Then many of his students go out and buy flamethrowers, and begin burning down houses, and setting people on fire with their earthly weapons. Then the teacher shows up and cries "What are you doing?!" and the students say "But you said to purge the world with fire..." This is what is going on with "hell" and the "lake of fire": men are greatly misunderstanding spiritual teachings, and, turning them into worldly understanding.

Jesus said: Luke 12:49: He wasn't meaning, literal fire, and the Word never means literal fire. All of the doctrines of men teaching concepts about "worldly fire" for "sinners" and taking spiritual truths literally, are causing the confusion: the GREAT CONFUSION, and are, building a false image of God to present to mankind.

The fire that consumes, that purifies, that torments, and abases, and eternally burns: is the truth. That is the fire. Truth consumes lies; it burns them up. Truth burns up misunderstanding. When men create false worlds built on lies and misunderstandings - the revelation of the truth will burn their false worlds to ashes. When a man is taught false doctrines, and has a false image of God in his mind through these false doctrines; then one who speaks truth to that man - revealed truth - then that man is consumed by fire. That man is destroyed by fire. That man is purged by fire. The result being: a new man who has had his misconceptions burned away from his old man.

For a Christian, the fire can burn the hottest of all. If he is set on false doctrine, and teaching others to falsely understand the truth, and should he built a false image of God in the mind of them that hear his words; then the revealed truth causes torment, weeping, gnashing of teeth: his "nakedness" is exposed before others, to his shame. He is found to be teaching falsely, and this revealed truth is a fire that burns with a fierceness.

If the Lord love a man, and another comes and says "The Lord despises you, and you are not of His" or "The Lord will torment you forever, since you do not believe as I do" and cause the man to have a false image of God, that he may curse God, and say "God is unjust", and he may say "There is no God": but then the truth of God is revealed, and that man has cursed God through the misunderstandings put into his thoughts by the false teacher: then that may will suffer torment and anguish when it is revealed that the Lord sought only his good, and was his friend, but was made to "seem" as an "enemy" because of the false teacher who corrupted the man's understanding of the love of God. Which is why it is written here: Jude 1:15

When we take the Word of God literally, the result is worldly understanding, and worldly religion: but this is the "beast", and "Babylon", and is not of God, but is to be cast into the fire; burned up in the revelation of truth: because as the darkness perishes at the rising of the sun, so too does the darkness of misunderstanding perish at the revelation of the truth: the everlasting fire.

The death of the old is the birth of the new. Everything passes through the fire, because, everything must be purged from the old, and, become the new. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Revelation 21:5

 

[Lazarus Short]

Even an "addition" is a loss of original understanding.

Correct.

 

[dqhall]

Peter described it differently:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Colter]

Hebrews says that our God is a consuming fire, revelations says that all sinners will have a part in the eternal lake of fire (not that they will be eternal in it as well but have a part). My understanding is that in my case I was an athiest and I felt tortured before being touched by the Holy Spirit, thus my former separation from Lord was in a sense a PART of the eternal lake of fire. I still have not read where the orthodox gets the claim that sinners will burn forever in hell if hell and death is to be cast into the lake of fire - that is by grace sinners will have a part or a taste of hell before repenting and accepting their lord and savior Jesus, though some may not taste death God wills that all his children be saved from hell.
Its a much more understandable then my experience with the Roman Catholic view that made me terrified as a child and kept me away from church. Without that experience though I might not have ever paid attention when the lord came knocking on my door.
What are your views on hell and death being tossed into the eternal lake of fire when Christ returns?
Is hell according to orthodox belief, really the same as what the Bible teaches?

I believe that Hell is a fabrication by shamans and other religious leaders who have nothing better to teach. People might fear an ISIS like God and give lip service to faith, but they will only truly love a good god.

 

[Der Alte]

You actually have all 3 written as 2 words.
"lo" לא means "no..."
"v'lo" ולא means "and no...."
No killing
and no adultery
and no stealing
Correct. That is because "word" does not mean the same in Hebrew as it does in modern day usage in English.
And pastors are not teaching this kind of thing to their congregations WHY??

How do you know what pastors are teaching their congregations and how does that concern you? My point still stands, translating Hebrew into English many times it requires more words than the original. In the verses I quoted 4-5 words in English were required to communicate what Hebrew communicated in 1-2 words. Your authority for the meaning of Hebrew, "word?"

 

[Der Alte]

What does this verse mean?
2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

It does not mean as some believe that the unrepentant are destroyed, perish, are annihilated, cease to exist etc.The word translated "destruction" is "apollumi." It is used for spilled and spoiled wine, broken wineskins, spoiled food, tarnished gold, faded flowers, lost sheep, lost coin, a prodigal son etc. Also something that is destroyed does not exist and cannot be "away from the presence of the Lord" or anything else.

 

[Chriliman]

Truth is a fire. It's more than just a fire, it's an everlasting fire. It's a spiritual fire. Imagine a teacher in a class, and he tells his students: "Truth is fire; go now, and purge the world with fire." Then many of his students go out and buy flamethrowers, and begin burning down houses, and setting people on fire with their earthly weapons. Then the teacher shows up and cries "What are you doing?!" and the students say "But you said to purge the world with fire..." This is what is going on with "hell" and the "lake of fire": men are greatly misunderstanding spiritual teachings, and, turning them into worldly understanding.

Jesus said: Luke 12:49: He wasn't meaning, literal fire, and the Word never means literal fire. All of the doctrines of men teaching concepts about "worldly fire" for "sinners" and taking spiritual truths literally, are causing the confusion: the GREAT CONFUSION, and are, building a false image of God to present to mankind.

The fire that consumes, that purifies, that torments, and abases, and eternally burns: is the truth. That is the fire. Truth consumes lies; it burns them up. Truth burns up misunderstanding. When men create false worlds built on lies and misunderstandings - the revelation of the truth will burn their false worlds to ashes. When a man is taught false doctrines, and has a false image of God in his mind through these false doctrines; then one who speaks truth to that man - revealed truth - then that man is consumed by fire. That man is destroyed by fire. That man is purged by fire. The result being: a new man who has had his misconceptions burned away from his old man.

For a Christian, the fire can burn the hottest of all. If he is set on false doctrine, and teaching others to falsely understand the truth, and should he built a false image of God in the mind of them that hear his words; then the revealed truth causes torment, weeping, gnashing of teeth: his "nakedness" is exposed before others, to his shame. He is found to be teaching falsely, and this revealed truth is a fire that burns with a fierceness.

If the Lord love a man, and another comes and says "The Lord despises you, and you are not of His" or "The Lord will torment you forever, since you do not believe as I do" and cause the man to have a false image of God, that he may curse God, and say "God is unjust", and he may say "There is no God": but then the truth of God is revealed, and that man has cursed God through the misunderstandings put into his thoughts by the false teacher: then that may will suffer torment and anguish when it is revealed that the Lord sought only his good, and was his friend, but was made to "seem" as an "enemy" because of the false teacher who corrupted the man's understanding of the love of God. Which is why it is written here: Jude 1:15

When we take the Word of God literally, the result is worldly understanding, and worldly religion: but this is the "beast", and "Babylon", and is not of God, but is to be cast into the fire; burned up in the revelation of truth: because as the darkness perishes at the rising of the sun, so too does the darkness of misunderstanding perish at the revelation of the truth: the everlasting fire.

The death of the old is the birth of the new. Everything passes through the fire, because, everything must be purged from the old, and, become the new. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Revelation 21:5

Amen brother!

1 Peter 3:6-8
"Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day."