Hell is real

[angelmom01]

justice for turning your back on a free gift.
you do not have to do anything but accept.

why should God condone this?
why should it be seen as a good thing for sin to enter in God's presence and the sinner to be treated as though they are righteous?

Are you not a sinner? Will God not treat you AS THOUGH you are righteous? Will you not be MADE RIGHTEOUS through the blood of the Lamb? Or are you righteous all by yourself?

Where does it say that one must "accept" a free gift or it is not theirs?

And where did I say that ALL will enter in through the narrow gate that leads to life; indeed, I did not.

Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and ~many~ there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and ~FEW~ there be that find it.

MANY will die in their sins, NEVER KNOWING GOD (which is the scriptural definition OF eternal life).

If one does not abide IN LIFE then they abide IN DEATH... yet Christ is Lord OF BOTH. What does that have to do with "eternity"?

angelmom

 

[kept]

The saints in glory will know, concerning the damned in hell, that God never loved them, but that he hates them, and will be forever hated of God. This hatred of God will be fully declared to them; they will see it, and will see the fruits of it in their misery. Therefore, when God has thus declared his hatred of the damned, and the saints see it, it will be no way becoming in the saints to love them, nor to mourn over them. It becomes the saints fully and perfectly to consent to what God doth, without any reluctance or opposition of spirit; yea, it becomes them to rejoice in every thing that God sees meet to be done.​

The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous​

Is this for real? Seriously I cannot imagine that being in the heart of a people.​

I read your posts and its often after this same manner and it does make me wonder are you for real or not?​

I guess Im just really amazed at what gets passed off as the 'good news of the gospel' now a days​

kept​

 

[holo]

God indeed hates non-Christians, for the Bible tells us so.

No, it doesn't. If God hated non-christians, he wouldn't have died for them. And Paul says that God demonstrated his love by dying for US while we were still sinners.

 

[angelmom01]

so everyone is covered by Christ's blood, even those who have turned their backs on Him?
please show me where that is shown in scripture

Rom 5:19-21

For as by one man's disobedience many (all ) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (ALL, as it is the ~same~ "many" who were made sinners that will be made righteous) be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. ~BUT~ where sin abounded, grace did ~MUCH MORE~ abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you see, sometimes "many" means "all". Unless someone wants to say that not all were made sinners?

angelmom

 

[MrsJoy]

btw...this phrase makes me think of little children arguing with a parent.

but I digress.

Fair?
what would that be?

What rights do we have?
the right to be seperated from God forever.
that's the only right we have.
That's what would be "fair"

 

[kept]

ohhhhh

I see that is from Jonathan Edwards

well that explains alot

thanks for attaching the link

I seriously thought surely you were joking but I see you are serious

still shocks me though

kept

 

[angelmom01]

I wouldn't have imagined that God hates certain people, except that the Bible first taught me this. Natural religion, for example, the religion of Socrates (Platonic Theism), supposed that God loves everyone and when he punishes, he punishes out of love. But Christianity is a revealed religion, and one of the doctrines that is revealed to us contrary to our expectations, is that God hates certain people and punishes them out of this hatred. God indeed hates non-Christians, for the Bible tells us so. We wouldn't have known this otherwise, and apparently many still believe that God "loves" his enemies.



The Bible also tells us that we too, if we become Godly, would also hate them and be stimulated by observing God punishing them with vengeance. The Bible also says that the righteous will rejoice at the observation of this cursing:

Psalm 58:10-11 (King James Version)​

The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.​

The righteous in heaven shall rejoice, and they shall also laugh and mock:

Proverbs 1:24-26 (New International Version)​

But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you.'​

In other words, it is not a sin to experience joy from witnessing the punishments of the non-Christians. Rather the opposite is true -- God commands us to have this emotional reaction:

Revelation 18:8, 20​

In one day [Babylon's] plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.​

I don't deny that God "hates"; God "hated" Esau before he was ever born; before he did anything good or bad.

But there is more to that than the message that God "hates" even innocent unborn babies for no good reason other than he just decides to or something or just because he "knows" who/what they will "turn out to be".

There is a time and a season for EVERY PURPOSE under the heavens.... not only a time to HEAL, but a time to KILL (etc, etc).

angelmom

 

[MrsJoy]

And please understand

I have not insulted anyone on this thread, I have repeatedly asked for scripture and all I get is insults

I really dont understand that???

(I meant that to Howard's answers to my asking for verses)

kept

scripture per your request was given and you ignored it

 

[kept]

Oh where then is the verse that says the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell?

I missed it somehow

kept

 

[Ceridwen]

If God hated non-christians, he wouldn't have died for them. And Paul says that God demonstrated his love by dying for US while we were still sinners.

God died for Christians. He did not pay the price for the sins of Non-Christians. That is precisely why non-Christians shall not be justified. If he died for them, then they would be forgiven. They are unforgiven by him, ergo, he did not die for them.

This author that you like is simply wrong.

Jonathan Edwards is well regarded as the greatest American Theologian. But more importantly, he was a Biblical theologian, and he said nothing about God's vengeance or the affections of the saints that God did not previously say in his self-revelation and guide for salvation, the Bible. Let's see some more reference to the Word on this thread, because it is the ultimate authority in all discussions theologic.

 

[MrsJoy]

So if a word doesn't have the particular meaning that you think it does then it is "meaningless"?

Aion, even as defined by my Bible concordance, means "an age"; aionios is derived FROM the word aion (which means "an age") and would more accurately mean "perpetual" (not "eternal"). And perpetual happens to be the definition given by Strong's - even though it is translated many times (most times) as "eternal".

So the word does have a meaning (so it's not "meaningless"). It just doesn't mean "eternal".

angelmom

it's nice to grab the deffinition that suits you and leave the rest, when in actuality there are several meanings, the others being "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity.
the context of a verse helps to understand which meaning is implied.

 

[angelmom01]

it's nice to grab the deffinition that suits you and leave the rest, when in actuality there are several meanings, the others being "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity.
the context of a verse helps to understand which meaning is implied.

The definition that suites me? How do you figure that?

The proper definition of the word is given first then the definition is "elaborated" on to show how it was used/translated in the scriptures.

How does that prove that it was translated properly if the proper definition doesn't necessarily mean the english word that it was translated into?

Aion means "an age" that is it's proper definition. Aionios is the adverb of aion. So if aion means "an age", then aionios partianing to "an age" (or ages) somehow.

Let me give you an example in English and maybe that will help me make my point more clear:

We all know what an hour or a week or a year is, right?

Now let's change hour to hour-LY or week to week-LY or year to year-LY. Or you can use the plurals - hours, weeks, years.... they are all related in some way to the root word.

Something that happens hourly happens ~by the hour~ or partains to an hour in some way, right?

The same is true for something that happens or continues to happen weekly or yearly.

Now, can something that continues to happen hourly or weekly or yearly continue PERPETUALLY and never end? OF COURSE, but does that mean that hourly, weekly or yearly mean "eternal" or "eternally" or "forever" or "everlasting"? NO!

So just because someone translated aionios as "eternal" or "forever" doesn't mean that's what it actually means or meant in the Greek.

Perpetual? YES!!!

But just because something lasts or continues on perpetually and ~can~ last "eternally" or "forever" (etc) does not mean that it does or has to last eternally or forever.

If someone told me that they have a weekly meeting that they have to attend, I wouldn't just assume that that just because they go "every week" that the meeting would never cease to take place.

See?

angelmom

 

[MrsJoy]

Excuse me but who are you to tell me what point *I* was or was not making? How do *you* know where *I* was GOING with *my* question/point?

You do realize that Sodom will be returned to her former estate, don't you? is that just the "city" or might it mean the "people"?

angelmom

because those were the words you used.
simply because you said something else after i responded does not change the origional post.

 

[MrsJoy]

Are you not a sinner? Will God not treat you AS THOUGH you are righteous? Will you not be MADE RIGHTEOUS through the blood of the Lamb? Or are you righteous all by yourself?

Where does it say that one must "accept" a free gift or it is not theirs?

And where did I say that ALL will enter in through the narrow gate that leads to life; indeed, I did not.

Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and ~many~ there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and ~FEW~ there be that find it.

MANY will die in their sins, NEVER KNOWING GOD (which is the scriptural definition OF eternal life).

If one does not abide IN LIFE then they abide IN DEATH... yet Christ is Lord OF BOTH. What does that have to do with "eternity"?

angelmom

I am righteous by His blood.
Not EVERYONE Is covered by that blood.
so their sins will in fact be held against them

 

[angelmom01]

I am righteous by His blood.
Not EVERYONE Is covered by that blood.
so their sins will in fact be held against them

verse please?

 

[MrsJoy]

Rom 5:19-21

For as by one man's disobedience many (all ) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (ALL, as it is the ~same~ "many" who were made sinners that will be made righteous) be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. ~BUT~ where sin abounded, grace did ~MUCH MORE~ abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you see, sometimes "many" means "all". Unless someone wants to say that not all were made sinners?

angelmom

actually, the word there is not all, but many.
and we are to take the whole counsel of the word of God.
but the word here much and many.

 

[MrsJoy]

The definition that suites me? How do you figure that?

The proper definition of the word is given first then the definition is "elaborated" on to show how it was used/translated in the scriptures.

How does that prove that it was translated properly if the proper definition doesn't necessarily mean the english word that it was translated into?

Aion means "an age" that is it's proper definition. Aionios is the adverb of aion. So if aion means "an age", then aionios partianing to "an age" (or ages) somehow.

Let me give you an example in English and maybe that will help me make my point more clear:

We all know what an hour or a week or a year is, right?

Now let's change hour to hour-LY or week to week-LY or year to year-LY. Or you can use the plurals - hours, weeks, years.... they are all related in some way to the root word.

Something that happens hourly happens ~by the hour~ or partains to an hour in some way, right?

The same is true for something that happens or continues to happen weekly or yearly.

Now, can something that continues to happen hourly or weekly or yearly continue PERPETUALLY and never end? OF COURSE, but does that mean that hourly, weekly or yearly mean "eternal" or "eternally" or "forever" or "everlasting"? NO!

So just because someone translated aionios as "eternal" or "forever" doesn't mean that's what it actually means or meant in the Greek.

Perpetual? YES!!!

But just because something lasts or continues on perpetually and ~can~ last "eternally" or "forever" (etc) does not mean that it does or has to last eternally or forever.

If someone told me that they have a weekly meeting that they have to attend, I wouldn't just assume that that just because they go "every week" that the meeting would never cease to take place.

See?

angelmom

I gave you the deffinitions for that very greek word, you just chose to use the one that suited you.
see?

 

[MrsJoy]

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

 

[angelmom01]

I gave you the deffinitions for that very greek word, you just chose to use the one that suited you.
see?

If you are going to make accusations, then I respectfully suggest that you show "proof" that your accusation are true.

Let's take a look:

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

How it is "used" and what it might mean "by extention" are NOT the definitions of the words.

The defintion of the word aion is AN AGE.

The definition of aionios is PEREPTUAL.

According to my concordance.

So I don't think I am simply grabing whatever definition suites me best? I have studied this out THOROUGHLY and I have taken the definition EXACTLY as they appear in my Concordance.

If you will notice aionios is also translated "world", mind explaining that to me?

here is the occurance:

Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world (aionios) began:

.... since everlasting began:

.... since eternal began:

No wonder the translators didn't translate it "everlasting" or "eternal" in ~that~ verse (or the other TWO like it).


Makes perfect sense to say... since THE AGES began, though doesn't it?

You see, it doesn't mean "world" either.

angelmom

 

[MrsJoy]

aion {ahee-ohn'}

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
again, this is the other part of that deffinition.
and again,
when one is attempting to translate you do not assume that all the deffinitions apply, and if some obviously do not , they are disregarded. it's elementary to translation.
it does not mean that NONE Of the definitions are true.
it means that that particular one is not what was meant.