Hell is real

[holo]

you did NOT say that before

That's what I meant when I said "the opposite of all those thing". But anyway, now you know some of the things he saved me from

and I was wondering if you really understood that SIN and HELL are what He saved you from, not just a few minor things here on earth

I'm sorry, do you think suicide and drug addiction are minor things?

BTW I've never said that God didn't save me from sin and hell. Of course he did that. But since I haven't died yet, I can't say too much about neither the hell he has saved me FROM or the heaven he has saved me TO.

 

[Ceridwen]

Again, will you be happy to see your loved ones tormented forever? Will that satisfy your definition/lust for justice? Do you think it's fair, personally?

A person is not yet completely converted to the Christian religion until they have God's sense of justice, which motivates him, and his saints, to see the divine virtue and beauty in God creating this scene:

Isaiah 63:3-6 (New International Version)
"I have trodden the winepress alone; I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground."
​

It will be a joy to see God glorious in his exaction of the death penalty upon all rebels, whether or not those traitors are blood relation to me. I love God more than I love any other person. In his sermons, "Discourses on Various Important Subjects," Jonathan Edwards righteously said the following:

Can the believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish their bliss.
​

 

[holo]

What difference does it make? I will have no sorrow or tears in heaven.

That sounds pretty cynical to me, sort of like "it doesn't matter too much that mum will be in hell forever, because in heaven I will forget about it anyway" - I mean, it's good for you to forget such a thing, but it will be just as bad for her.

Do you think the lake of fire is an aquarium where we can watch fallen family members swim around in torment?

No, but if I understood Ceridwen correctly, he or she believes that the christians will witness God tormenting non-christians forever - just for the sake of punishing them - and the christians will enjoy watching it and praising God for it.

I find it hard to imagine such a thing.

 

[holo]

A person is not yet completely converted to the Christian religion

What does that mean? Does it have anything to do with being born again, becoming a child of God as the bible puts it?

It will be a joy to see God glorious in his exaction of the death penalty upon all rebels, whether or not those traitors are blood relation to me. I love God more than I love any other person. In his sermons, "Discourses on Various Important Subjects," Jonathan Edwards righteously said the following:

Can the believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish their bliss.
​

The answer is yes, apparently. You see it as a beautiful thing to get to see your loved ones tormented forever. Does that mean that you, too, like God, will start hating these people?

 

[MrsJoy]

it is a twisting of words to say that one enjoys seeing people tortured because you agree that sin does not belong in God's presence and with the justice of God.
it is a way to try to make them and their stand on truth look bad without actually addressing the facts

 

[angelmom01]

you did NOT say that before and I was wondering if you really understood that SIN and HELL are what He saved you from, not just a few minor things here on earth

Sin and hell or sin and death?

death = hell ?? In what way?

If Christ paid the penalty for sin then why did he "die" instead of going to hell? (yes I know you will likely say that he did, but was not left there). But why isn't he still there if that is the penalty and there is "no escape"?

Did He not really pay the penalty? Or did He not pay it "in full" or did the penalty somehow "change" after he paid it?

angelmom

 

[holo]

it is a twisting of words to say that one enjoys seeing people tortured because you agree that sin does not belong in God's presence and with the justice of God.

I don't intend to be twisting anyone's words. Here are Ceridwen's own words again.

A person is not yet completely converted to the Christian religion until they have God's sense of justice, which motivates him, and his saints, to see the divine virtue and beauty in God creating this scene:

Isaiah 63:3-6 (New International Version)
"I have trodden the winepress alone; I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground."
​

It will be a joy to see God glorious in his exaction of the death penalty upon all rebels, whether or not those traitors are blood relation to me. I love God more than I love any other person. In his sermons, "Discourses on Various Important Subjects," Jonathan Edwards righteously said the following:

Can the believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish their bliss.
​

Perhaps I've misunderstood what (s)he meant. I hope so.

 

[MrsJoy]

you are very good at avoiding the actual topic and playing word games

 

[Ceridwen]

What does that mean? Does it have anything to do with being born again, becoming a child of God as the bible puts it?

You're exactly right about this -- becoming born again means having your heart changed by God as he comes into you and gives you new life and changes your point of view so that you see things the way God sees them.

Does that mean that you, too, like God, will start hating these people?

I will agree with God in his judgments. I will hate the things God hates and love the things God loves:

The saints in glory will know, concerning the damned in hell, that God never loved them, but that he hates them, and will be forever hated of God. This hatred of God will be fully declared to them; they will see it, and will see the fruits of it in their misery. Therefore, when God has thus declared his hatred of the damned, and the saints see it, it will be no way becoming in the saints to love them, nor to mourn over them. It becomes the saints fully and perfectly to consent to what God doth, without any reluctance or opposition of spirit; yea, it becomes them to rejoice in every thing that God sees meet to be done.
The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous
​

 

[holo]

you are very good at avoiding the actual topic and playing word games

How am I playing word games? I quoted his/her entire post!

I also answered your question (what has God saved my life from). And the topic is hell, which is what we have been discussing the whole way.

 

[angelmom01]

What does that mean? Does it have anything to do with being born again, becoming a child of God as the bible puts it?

The answer is yes, apparently. You see it as a beautiful thing to get to see your loved ones tormented forever. Does that mean that you, too, like God, will start hating these people?

Makes me wonder if believing that God hates his enemies makes it easier for some of us to justify hating ours (and "wishing" hell on them).

I can't count the number of times I have heard Christians say "there is a special place in hell waiting for that one".

God commanded us, weak and sinful and imperfect humans, to LOVE and FORGIVE our enemies and even pray for them... but many still believe that God "hates" His and will do worse to them then Hilter ever did to anyone.

angelmom

 

[MrsJoy]

It’s talking about destroying the ungodly. It mentions Noah and the flood (BY WATER) and it mentions Sodom and Gomorrah (BY FIRE). Think it's just a coincidence that John’s baptism was one of WATER, while Christ’s is one of the Holy Spirit and FIRE?

that was NOT the point that you were making.
you said the fact that the city was not still burning was proof that hell was not forever when that was not the picture given.

 

[angelmom01]

you are very good at avoiding the actual topic and playing word games

Can you address (or quote) the person you are speaking to so we can know who it is, please, and so whoever it is might be able to answer or even know what post you are commenting on.

thanks,
angelmom

 

[MrsJoy]

If there is "no hell"? Or if "hell" isn't what you think it is?

God burning people alive for all eternity is considered "justice"? Justice for men who are subject to sin and the lusts of the flesh and who are "by nature" disobedient?

angelmom

justice for turning your back on a free gift.
you do not have to do anything but accept.

why should God condone this?
why should it be seen as a good thing for sin to enter in God's presence and the sinner to be treated as though they are righteous?

 

[MrsJoy]

On the contrary. If anyone suffers eternally in hell, Jesus might then legitimately be thought to have died for nought -- seeing as His death is said to constitute the triumph over death and hell itself.

Pretty hollow triumph if you can't even free the captives you came to free. Fortunately, we are not obligated to believe His power is limited. Jesus' death empties hell and makes it obsolete.

so everyone is covered by Christ's blood, even those who have turned their backs on Him?
please show me where that is shown in scripture

 

[angelmom01]

that was NOT the point that you were making.
you said the fact that the city was not still burning was proof that hell was not forever when that was not the picture given.

Excuse me but who are you to tell me what point *I* was or was not making? How do *you* know where *I* was GOING with *my* question/point?

You do realize that Sodom will be returned to her former estate, don't you? is that just the "city" or might it mean the "people"?

angelmom

 

[holo]

You're exactly right about this -- becoming born again means having your heart changed by God as he comes into you and gives you new life and changes your point of view so that you see things the way God sees them.

But being born again is something God does, it's an immediate thing, it's a miracle. Being "fully converted to the christian religion" is something quite different. The christian religion is just that - a christian religion. You may have a christian religion as well as a factual relationship with God, but they're not one and the same.

I will agree with God in his judgments. I will hate the things God hates and love the things God loves:

The saints in glory will know, concerning the damned in hell, that God never loved them, but that he hates them, and will be forever hated of God. This hatred of God will be fully declared to them; they will see it, and will see the fruits of it in their misery. Therefore, when God has thus declared his hatred of the damned, and the saints see it, it will be no way becoming in the saints to love them, nor to mourn over them. It becomes the saints fully and perfectly to consent to what God doth, without any reluctance or opposition of spirit; yea, it becomes them to rejoice in every thing that God sees meet to be done.
The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous
​

Well, this author that you like is simply wrong. God calls us to love our enemies - at the same time that he apparently hates our friends? God instructs us to do one thing, but goes and does the exact opposite himself...

So it ultimately doesn't matter whether you love or hate anyone in this life, does it? Because in the end, you'll hate those who God hates and love those who he loves, and it won't make any sense - but then, apparently it doesn't have to.

 

[MrsJoy]

How did Jesus deal with it when His disciples wanted to see fire from heaven "consume" those who DID NOT RECEIVE JESUS???

Luke 9:51-56

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Questions to ponder:
(1) Has Jesus changed? (Hebrews 13:8)
(2) Is Jesus a hypocrite? Does He rebuke/chastise His followers for something He does Himself?
(3) What "manner of spirit" is it that desires to see those we disagree with get destroyed? Does God inspire that, or Satan (or selfish flesh)?
(4) Is the purpose of Jesus' mission (coming to earth as a Man, dying on the Cross) merely to demonstrate he has the right to destroy men's lives? Or is it something greater, more glorious, and more wonderful than that? (see verse 56 above).

the time had not yet come.
there is a difference from self-righteous MEN wanting to do something and GOD's righteousness

 

[MrsJoy]

I am seeing people are twisting and selecting scriptures to "fit to" their own beliefs rather than what God actually say. Its a shame.

 

[Ceridwen]

Many still believe that God "hates" His enemies.

I wouldn't have imagined that God hates certain people, except that the Bible first taught me this. Natural religion, for example, the religion of Socrates (Platonic Theism), supposed that God loves everyone and when he punishes, he punishes out of love. But Christianity is a revealed religion, and one of the doctrines that is revealed to us contrary to our expectations, is that God hates certain people and punishes them out of this hatred. God indeed hates non-Christians, for the Bible tells us so. We wouldn't have known this otherwise, and apparently many still believe that God "loves" his enemies.

The Bible also tells us that we too, if we become Godly, would also hate them and be stimulated by observing God punishing them with vengeance. The Bible also says that the righteous will rejoice at the observation of this cursing:

Psalm 58:10-11 (King James Version)
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
​

The righteous in heaven shall rejoice, and they shall also laugh and mock:

Proverbs 1:24-26 (New International Version)
But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you.'
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In other words, it is not a sin to experience joy from witnessing the punishments of the non-Christians. Rather the opposite is true -- God commands us to have this emotional reaction:

Revelation 18:8, 20
In one day [Babylon's] plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.
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