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Featured Hell is Payback

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  6. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Young's Literal Translation
    wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Few were finding it, is what it says:

    how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt.7:14)

    Not that few would ever find it. Clearly all will find it, as the same author said earlier in the same writing:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Matthew wrote "few" finding it. Paul says "many" will (Rom.5:18-19). Who is wrong? How to harmonize?

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    Answer:

    Matthew was speaking in the present tense (not final destiny)

    Paul was speaking in the future tense (final destiny).

    Also Paul was teaching universalism. The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says is "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  11. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    And yet God created us that we all will die, at least of old age. Then why kill us, is that not evil that God did? created us to die the death of the body. Don't deny your creator. He kills.
     
  12. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We were not originally created with the intent that we would die. Death came as a result of our sin. Our sin was wrong. God's reaction to our sin was not wrong. In fact, part of His purpose in not allowing us to live indefinitely after our fall was so that we would not live forever in a miserable state of sin and rebellion:

    NIV Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
     
  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This argument might be valid if stoning was the only punishment under "Moses' law" but there were four forms of capital punishment. As I have said before Hebrews 4:8 refers to a punishment worse than death
    Jewish Encyclopedia-Modes of Punishment.
    Only in comparatively few instances is the particular mode of death incurred by the commission of a crime prescribed. Blasphemy, idolatry, Sabbath-breaking, witchcraft, prostitution by a betrothed virgin, or deceiving her husband at marriage as to her chastity (Deut. xxii. 21), and the rebellious son are, according to the Pentateuchal laws, to be punished with death by stoning; bigamous marriage with a wife's mother and the prostitution of a priest's daughter are punished by burning; communal apostasy is punished by the sword. With reference to all other capital offenses, the law ordains that the perpetrator shall die a violent death, occasionally adding the expression, "His (their) blood shall be upon him (them)." This expression, as we shall see presently, post-Biblical legislation applies to death by stoning. The Bible speaks also of hanging (Deut. xxi. 22), but, according to the rabbinical interpretation, not as a mode of execution, but rather of exposure after death (Sanh. vi. 4, 75b).
    CAPITAL PUNISHMENT - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What difference does it make which method of death is used?
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/capital-punishment

    Where does "Hebrews 4:8 refers to a punishment worse than death"?

    Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Now that your "'Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler." argument has been sunk without missing a beat you just ignore it and jump to another empty argument.
    The penalty for violating the law of Moses was one of four methods of death without mercy. Hebrews 10:29 says there is a punishment "more evil or aggravated (physically, mentally or morally): - sorer, worse." than that death without mercy..

    Heb 10:29
    (29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Jesus also mentioned punishment worse than death twice. Matthew 18:6, Matthew 26:24,
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nobody said stoning was the only method of death in the law of Moses. Although according to the following source:

    "Stonings were presumably the standard form of judicial execution in biblical times (Lev. 24:23; Num. 15:36; I Kings 21:13; II Chron. 24:21)."
    Capital Punishment




    "The three methods of executing criminals found in the Bible are stoning, burning, and hanging."
    Capital Punishment

    Furthermore:

    "Burning is mentioned as a pre-Sinaitic punishment (Gen. 38:24). As a mode of judicial execution it is prescribed in respect of two offenses only (Lev. 20:14, 21:9), but it seems to have been used to aggravate the punishment of stoning, the corpse being burned after execution (Josh. 7:25). It is also reported as a non-Jewish (Babylonian) punishment (Dan. 3:6). There is no biblical record to indicate whether and how judicial executions were ever carried out by burning."
    Capital Punishment

    Additionally, the book of Hebrews is to Hebrews, not non Jews. But read what this says:

    "Hanging is reported in the Bible only as either a mode of execution of non-Jews who presumably acted in accordance with their own laws (e.g., Egyptians: Gen. 40:22; II Sam. 21:6–12: Philistines; and Persians: Esth. 7:9), or as a non-Jewish law imported to or to be applied in Israel (Ezra 6:11), or as an extra-legal or extra-judicial measure (Josh. 8:29)."
    Capital Punishment

    And what's worse, stoning or hanging?

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  17. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    Lazarus and the Rich Man is a very good example of what hell is like. It seems to be an eternal separation from God's presence. There is a line or barrier which no one can cross to soothe those in hell.

    Is hell payback? In God's justice system, yes. In man's interpretation, no. We are not to have any vengeance ourselves because we are not without sin, but God is. We are told to forgive because since Jesus' death on the cross - He paid the price for sin for us all. We forgive as Father forgives us when we stumble.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that God is timeless. We are not, so long as we are in Christ do we have eternal life with Him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that God is our Creator, He made us. What right do we have to go on our own accord? Why would we want to ever be separated from Him? Yet, this will come to pass as scripture states: Matthew 7:22-25


    "On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’"
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word mistranslated "never" above is Strong's Hebrew word #5331, netsach. Here it is translated "permanence":

    Psa.49:19 Yet he shall come unto the generation of his fathers; Unto permanence, they shall not see light. (CLV)

    permanently, "in a way that lasts or remains unchanged indefinitely"

    "the state or quality of lasting or remaining unchanged indefinitely. "the clarity and permanence of the dyes" "

    Here netsach is used of finite duration that had already ended & is translated "perpetually":

    Amos 1:11 Thus, saith Yahweh, Because of three transgressions of Edom, and because of four, will I not turn it back,—Because he pursued, with the sword, his brother, and stifled his compassions, and his anger tare in pieces evermore, and, his indignation, kept watch perpetually[5331]

    The LXX Hebrew scholars who translated NETSACH in the Septuagint rendered it AION[165] in the Greek OT, meaning literally an "age" or "eon" (The Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear, p.794). This Greek-English interlinear says "unto the eon he shall not see light". The Greek OT was the Scriptures most often quoted in the NT & used by the early church.

    There is no endless punishment in Psa.49:19.

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  19. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your previous argument only mentioned stoning. Note the word "presumably" in your quote. Guessing, speculation.
    And by the sword. Isaiah 27:1, Jeremiah 11:22, Jeremiah 27:8, Jeremiah 44;13, Job 36:12, Jeremiah 11:22, Jeremiah 16:4 , Jeremiah 21:, Jeremiah 27:13, Jeremiah 34:4, Jeremiah 38:2, Jeremiah 42:16, Jeremiah 42:17, Jeremiah 42:22, Jeremiah 44:12, Ezekiel 5:12, Ezekiel 6:12, Amos 7:11, Amos 9:10

    The scripture which directs punishment by burning says nothing about it being after death by some other means. Thus Josh 7:25 is irrelevant.
    (14) 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
    Leviticus 21:9
    (9) "'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

    What is your point?
    Irrelevant, hanging was one of the punishments prescribed in the law.

    Irrelevant! My argument was and is there is a punishment worse than death. I was not arguing which punishment under the law was worse. Hebrews 10:28 says there is a punishment worse than dying without mercy.
    The writer of Hebrews said nothing about stoning. Since you can't get that part right the rest of your assumptions/presuppositions and arguments from silence is irrelevant. I wasn't aware that you could read the mind of the writer of Hebrews 2000 years +/- after his death and know what he believed, would have done etc.
     
  20. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    There is a problem in my mind with your view. If all those unsaved are annihilated, then all incur the "death sentence" irrespective of the severity of their sins. Thus a little nice old lady who lived a "moral" life but who never believed and trusted in Jesus for the forgiveness of her sins suffers the same fate as Hitler. Our own penal system is based on the severity of one's crimes which is what justice is all about. Can God whom we know is just, do any less?
     
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