Hell is Payback

[Halbhh]

As human beings we are bounded in both time and place. That is to say, we are finite. On the other hand we think of God as completely unbounded. God exists outside of both time and space. God is present everywhere and at all times. That is to say, God is infinite. This is the orthodox theistic understanding of God. To compare the finite to the infinite is beyond our human comprehension. Even to compare a grain of sand to Mount Everest falls far, far, far short. All of this brings up a number of questions in my mind.

The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?

The second question being “Even if it were possible for the finite to offend the infinite, would the infinite punishment of a finite creature be just?” I will attempt to craft an analogy. You are in a park enjoying a picnic lunch when you glance down and notice an ant crawling across your sandwich. You are offended. How do you react? You have a number of options. You could ignore the ant. You could brush the ant away. You could move to a different location. You could kill the ant. You could kill the entire ant colony. You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.

To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of God. I completely reject the concept of hell as it is traditionally understood in most Christian churches.

Using the fun metaphor of the ant, notice the parallel of how the ant is mortal. An eternal duration of torture is not possible unless it's an immortal ant... (I'm going somewhere with this, don't worry...)

Now, Christ said we can be given eternal life.....
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

See? We do not already have it to begin with. Without being given eternal life we will "perish".

His word.

That's why the "second death" is a "death" (not something else like "eternal life"; i.e. the wording is precise and means what it says here)

This is also shown also in Genesis chapter 3 -- that Adam and Even before the fall did not yet have immortality. They did not have it even before the new rules which happened after the fall:

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” <-- !
23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden...


So, not having yet eaten of the tree of eternal life, they were not already immortal even from the beginning. Eternal life isn't our already-situation. Instead, it's the ultimate gift. We don't have it at all, until it is given.

(Notice that the "devil and his angels" in contrast, unlike us, do have either immortality of the self/soul or a super long hardy endurance, at least one or the other, already, by their nature, unlike us;
therefore they can suffer longer than us in that 'fire')

Of course, to perish in that fire is indeed an eternal punishment.

Now every reference is fitting together, perfectly. This is how to know when we have a doctrine that can be correct -- it must fit not only certain selected verses alone, but fit together all the different verses from different books.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Anguspure]

We know that we should not seek to harm those who have harmed us. If fact, we should forgive them and do good to them as the Lord gives opportunity. But putting this truth into practice can be a great challenge when people have faced terrible evil.

I had the incredible privilege of serving the Lord in a Muslim majority nation for fourteen years. I call it a privilege in part because I was able to serve alongside of some incredibly courageous Christians. Here is one short story:

A young lady was learning how to share her faith with her Muslim neighbors. She wanted to do this but was struggling with it. She came to my wife and me for counsel. She told us her story.

Her father had been serving the Lord in a mixed area of Christians and Muslims when Islamic extremists moved in and attacked the area. She was a young girl. After hiding, her family was fortunate to be rescued by the military (the extremists had a militia, but were not part of the government). Her family was placed in the back of a military truck to be driven out of the area to a boat which would take them to relative safety. The truck had boards enclosing the back, but the boards were not tightly fitted so that one could look out the cracks. She looked and saw along the side of the road Christians who had been slaughtered. Now she wanted to reach out to her Muslim neighbors (most of which were not extremists), but this memory made it hard for her.

What do you say to something like that?

The first step in ministering to someone who shares a story like that is taking time to share in their deep hurt. But even for a case this extreme, or rather, especially for cases this extreme, the Bible gives answers.

Part of the answer (a huge, important part) is that Jesus set the amazing example for us by forgiving those who crucified Him. He also offered forgiveness to Paul, who had been involved in persecuting Christians. The blood of Christ is ENOUGH payment for any sin. Even the most terrible, horrifying sins can be forgiven because of the cross.

But not everyone will accept the payment Christ made. In such cases, does the Bible tell us that pay back is wrong? Yes and no. It’s wrong for us to personally seek pay back, but it is not wrong to desire justice, which includes pay back. Paul was writing to a group of Christians who, like the Christians I served among, were facing serious persecution. Notice what he tells them:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Notice that Paul does not say “don’t worry about justice”. Paul says God is just and will pay back those who were persecuting the believers. Paul explains that this will happen when Jesus returns. It’s not wrong to want justice, to want pay back. But vengeance is not our job. It’s God job. God promises to avenge, and uses this promise to free us from the burden and danger of seeking vengeance ourselves:

Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Believing in God’s promise to avenge does not make us angry and vengeful. It frees us to forgive and love. Believing that God is just empowers us to take risks and love our enemies and do good to them, hoping that they will be won to Christ, but knowing that some will continue to reject him and do more evil. We aren’t ignoring justice; we are trusting God’s promise to be just and repay in the end.

I have seen how this truth is part of what God uses to set the hearts of Christians who have seen and suffered terrible evil free to minister to others.

This is one reason I’m concerned about wrong views of Hell. These wrong views of Hell are not consistent with God’s promise to avenge and to pay back, and thus, they undermine this important truth.

How Wrong Views of Hell Can Undermine God’s Promise to Avenge

One popular view of Hell is that it does not really involve any active punishment from God. This popular view says that God simply allows those who prefer not to be in His presence to go on existing without Him. Such an existence is sad and unhappy, but does not involve God actively punishing anyone. This idea may sound attractive to some, but it utterly and totally lacks Biblical support. It is contrary to the repeated and consistent teaching of Scripture. God repeatedly promises to pay back people according to their sins. The Bible portrays God as being active in this. Indeed, God is the one who carries out this vengeance.

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

There is another error regarding Hell which undermines the truth that Hell involves “payback”. That is the common and widespread belief that Hell involves eternal torment. One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

If unrighteous people really did deserve to be tortured for eternity then how does God ever fulfill His promise to repay sinners? If the unrighteous “owe” an eternity of suffering as payment for their sins, then even after a million trillion years of torment they would have repaid far less than 1/1000th of 1% of the debt they apparently owe. In this view justice is NEVER complete or fulfilled.

The view which best fits with God’s promise to repay is annihilationism. God will repay each person according to their sins. The final outcome is that they perish (John 3:16), are destroyed by God in both body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and they are burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This second death is permanent, it is eternal, and is itself the primary punishment for sins which is most emphasized throughout Scripture. However, just as death in this life may be preceded by various amounts of suffering, the “second death” also will be preceded by some suffering which will be truly just. God will repay.

What do you think? Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"? Which view of Hell (eternal conscious torment, universalism, or annihilationism) seems most harmonious with the Biblical teaching of "payback"?


This is a slightly modified (hopefully improved) version of a post on my blog.

Yes it is and I would not wish it on anyone, lest somebody remembers the far greater amount that I owed before I accepted the payment offered by my King.

 

[Almost there]

God can be destroying/killing something for eternity. Just like after several plagues in Egypt -the wicked remarked as to Egypt was destroyed. The devils know that they will be destroyed - tormented.

How can you be "killing" someone if they never die?

 

[Almost there]

What I always find interesting about Jesus' words, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.", is that, first, they didn't ask to be forgiven and were not repentant and, second, they must have received forgiveness, though not salvation, for obvious reasons. Therefore, what did it mean for God to "forgive" them. Was there some other penalty they could have looked forward to, had Jesus not asked that they be forgiven? Or was Jesus actually praying for their salvation?

 

[Anguspure]

What I always find interesting about Jesus' words, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.", is that, first, they didn't ask to be forgiven and were not repentant and, second, they must have received forgiveness, though not salvation, for obvious reasons. Therefore, what did it mean for God to "forgive" them. Was there some other penalty they could have looked forward to, had Jesus not asked that they be forgiven? Or was Jesus actually praying for their salvation?

He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20)

 

[Halbhh]

What I always find interesting about Jesus' words, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.", is that, first, they didn't ask to be forgiven and were not repentant and, second, they must have received forgiveness, though not salvation, for obvious reasons. Therefore, what did it mean for God to "forgive" them. Was there some other penalty they could have looked forward to, had Jesus not asked that they be forgiven? Or was Jesus actually praying for their salvation?

Wonderful question. I've taken it (as you) that surely the Roman soldiers are forgiven for that action of physically implementing the crucifixion, and likely also the Jewish crowd there that had been tricked and riled up by the accusations of blasphemy yelled against Christ were also forgiven, also not knowing what they were doing, not knowing He was innocent. Also, I've taken that there is a powerful example to us all in forgiving. Like Philip later would also. These things I bet you had seen, but your question is interesting. We know Christ said woe to him who would betray Him, because unlike the crowd at the crucifixion the betrayer would know better, would have a chance to know Who He was, to understand. But the act of killing such a good and innocent Person, even without understanding, still to even participate just as a mob, without truly knowing there really was due process (as under the Old Covenant there would be a due process with multiple witnesses required), or perhaps just trusting in the priests too much and endorsing Roman execution despite conflicting witness about Jesus, even this is still significant wrong, and needed forgiving.

I'm not certain, but it seems possibly to be even about human evil in a way. We skirt on the border of complete destruction, due to our evil, at times in scripture.

Like in Genesis chapter 6, or in the beginning of the Gospel of Luke with the verse about the mission of John the Baptist -- with the reference back to Malachi chapter 4 (leading into verse 6!), where you can read a situation that would (if the condition had happened!) lead to the entire destruction of all the land, which might....might mean all of humanity, not only Israel. That is, possibly that moment -- us, humanity, crucifying Christ -- was a moment when only Christ's forgiving even all of humanity gives us any hope at continuing....

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Mark Corbett]

Just like if you had a piece of paper and you just keep tearing it up into smaller and smaller pieces. From that very first tear -you are destroying it.

I appreciate that you consistently seek to use Scripture and reason to explain your view, as I do. I view you as a brother in Christ whom I disagree with and not as an enemy (that's the way it should be on this forum, I just think it's worth saying every now and then).

Your analogy is interesting, but here are two vital reasons why I think it fails.

1. The Greek word used for "destroy" (in Matthew 10:28) and "perish" (In John 3:16) is apollumi. When this word is applied to humans, its meaning is to kill. Here are some examples:

Matthew 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill (apollumi) him."


Matthew 27:20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and tif
o have Jesus executed (apollumi).


Acts 5:37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed (apollumi), and all his followers were scattered.

If you want to see more examples, look at: Matthew 12:14, Matthew 21:41, Matthew 22:7, and Luke 13:33.

You can't kill someone if they never die. If someone was torturing another person, we might say "You're killing them" if we thought the torture would cause death. However, if the poor victim survived the torture we would have to admit that we were wrong. God cannot be apollumi-ing someone if they never die, not because God lacks power, but because the very word means to cause someone's death.

2. People are not like paper because paper is not alive. If you cut a person in half, and then kept cutting the halves in half, as your analogy suggests, after the very first cutting in half the person would be dead. Interestingly, Jesus does use a word which literally means to cut in half to warn of the fate that awaits the unrighteous:

NIV Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces (διχοτομέω, dixotomeo) and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

from Friberg Lexicon:
διχοτομέω of an ancient form of severe punishment cut in two, cut in pieces
​

This may be symbolic language, but it symbolizes perishing must better than it does eternal torment.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I spent, as I have said on CF before, two years digging into my KJV to see what fit best - Damnationism, Annihilationism, or Universalism. I couched them as theories, and worked my way through the KJV to see which theory fit the data (text) better. Here are a couple of gems that I found:

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the little-appreciated Jubilee principle in action, freeing us from bondage to sin, and saving us by and through the fire. No wonder that God describes Himself as a refining fire, and even as soap.

 

[Anguspure]

I spent, as I have said on CF before, two years digging into my KJV to see what fit best - Damnationism, Annihilationism, or Universalism. I couched them as theories, and worked my way through the KJV to see which theory fit the data (text) better. Here are a couple of gems that I found:

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the little-appreciated Jubilee principle in action, freeing us from bondage to sin, and saving us by and through the fire. No wonder that God describes Himself as a refining fire, and even as soap.

Better to study the Hebrew or the Greek. Any translation is worse than the original language and in respect of these issues much has been lost by the insertion of Greco-European ideas.
i.e. http://www.robertwr.com/

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[friend of]

But even IF the fire and the worms last forever, they are consuming dead bodies, not torturing live people.

But how could worms consume dead bodies forever? Wouldn't it take a little while for the worms to completely eat up the dead bodies if this passage was indeed speaking about mortal carcasses here? It seems to me that the implication is that this is an eternal body that is being eaten for eternity.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Lazarus Short]

Better to study the Hebrew or the Greek. Any translation is worse than the original language and in respect of these issues much has been lost by the insertion of Greco-European ideas.
i.e. http://www.robertwr.com/

You are correct! One European idea I found came from Norse mythology - Hel and her afterlife realm Helheim. I view Hell as an insertion.

 

[Mark Corbett]

But how could worms consume dead bodies forever? Wouldn't it take a little while for the worms to completely eat up the dead bodies if this passage was indeed speaking about mortal carcasses here? It seems to me that the implication is that this is an eternal body that is being eaten for eternity.

"for their worm shall not die" may simply be a way of saying that the worm will not die while it is doing its task of turning the dead bodies back to dust. Isaiah is explicit that it is dead bodies that are being consumed:

NIV Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

The Hebrew word translated "dead bodies" is the same as the word translated "dead bodies" here:

ESV 1 Samuel 17:46 This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down and cut off your head. And I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth, that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel,

Since it is very common for worms to consume dead bodies and relatively rare for worms to be used to torture living people, it makes sense that this is speaking of dead bodies.

 

[devin553344]

We know that we should not seek to harm those who have harmed us. If fact, we should forgive them and do good to them as the Lord gives opportunity. But putting this truth into practice can be a great challenge when people have faced terrible evil.

I had the incredible privilege of serving the Lord in a Muslim majority nation for fourteen years. I call it a privilege in part because I was able to serve alongside of some incredibly courageous Christians. Here is one short story:

A young lady was learning how to share her faith with her Muslim neighbors. She wanted to do this but was struggling with it. She came to my wife and me for counsel. She told us her story.

Her father had been serving the Lord in a mixed area of Christians and Muslims when Islamic extremists moved in and attacked the area. She was a young girl. After hiding, her family was fortunate to be rescued by the military (the extremists had a militia, but were not part of the government). Her family was placed in the back of a military truck to be driven out of the area to a boat which would take them to relative safety. The truck had boards enclosing the back, but the boards were not tightly fitted so that one could look out the cracks. She looked and saw along the side of the road Christians who had been slaughtered. Now she wanted to reach out to her Muslim neighbors (most of which were not extremists), but this memory made it hard for her.

What do you say to something like that?

The first step in ministering to someone who shares a story like that is taking time to share in their deep hurt. But even for a case this extreme, or rather, especially for cases this extreme, the Bible gives answers.

Part of the answer (a huge, important part) is that Jesus set the amazing example for us by forgiving those who crucified Him. He also offered forgiveness to Paul, who had been involved in persecuting Christians. The blood of Christ is ENOUGH payment for any sin. Even the most terrible, horrifying sins can be forgiven because of the cross.

But not everyone will accept the payment Christ made. In such cases, does the Bible tell us that pay back is wrong? Yes and no. It’s wrong for us to personally seek pay back, but it is not wrong to desire justice, which includes pay back. Paul was writing to a group of Christians who, like the Christians I served among, were facing serious persecution. Notice what he tells them:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Notice that Paul does not say “don’t worry about justice”. Paul says God is just and will pay back those who were persecuting the believers. Paul explains that this will happen when Jesus returns. It’s not wrong to want justice, to want pay back. But vengeance is not our job. It’s God job. God promises to avenge, and uses this promise to free us from the burden and danger of seeking vengeance ourselves:

Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Believing in God’s promise to avenge does not make us angry and vengeful. It frees us to forgive and love. Believing that God is just empowers us to take risks and love our enemies and do good to them, hoping that they will be won to Christ, but knowing that some will continue to reject him and do more evil. We aren’t ignoring justice; we are trusting God’s promise to be just and repay in the end.

I have seen how this truth is part of what God uses to set the hearts of Christians who have seen and suffered terrible evil free to minister to others.

This is one reason I’m concerned about wrong views of Hell. These wrong views of Hell are not consistent with God’s promise to avenge and to pay back, and thus, they undermine this important truth.

How Wrong Views of Hell Can Undermine God’s Promise to Avenge

One popular view of Hell is that it does not really involve any active punishment from God. This popular view says that God simply allows those who prefer not to be in His presence to go on existing without Him. Such an existence is sad and unhappy, but does not involve God actively punishing anyone. This idea may sound attractive to some, but it utterly and totally lacks Biblical support. It is contrary to the repeated and consistent teaching of Scripture. God repeatedly promises to pay back people according to their sins. The Bible portrays God as being active in this. Indeed, God is the one who carries out this vengeance.

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

There is another error regarding Hell which undermines the truth that Hell involves “payback”. That is the common and widespread belief that Hell involves eternal torment. One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

If unrighteous people really did deserve to be tortured for eternity then how does God ever fulfill His promise to repay sinners? If the unrighteous “owe” an eternity of suffering as payment for their sins, then even after a million trillion years of torment they would have repaid far less than 1/1000th of 1% of the debt they apparently owe. In this view justice is NEVER complete or fulfilled.

The view which best fits with God’s promise to repay is annihilationism. God will repay each person according to their sins. The final outcome is that they perish (John 3:16), are destroyed by God in both body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and they are burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This second death is permanent, it is eternal, and is itself the primary punishment for sins which is most emphasized throughout Scripture. However, just as death in this life may be preceded by various amounts of suffering, the “second death” also will be preceded by some suffering which will be truly just. God will repay.

What do you think? Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"? Which view of Hell (eternal conscious torment, universalism, or annihilationism) seems most harmonious with the Biblical teaching of "payback"


This is a slightly modified (hopefully improved) version of a post on my blog.

Hell is nothing more than the punishment of the devil. It's a lie like prison and the death sentence. I was created by God to become the man I am. And if I sin against you then God did. And if I sin against God then I sin against you. Then why punish me if I seek after God and not evil. Remember the evil God thought to do to the slaves of Egypt brought out of Egypt. And Moses did the evil instead for God. God will do evil and does, and how do you judge him? That's is the question.

I sin not against man, but there are those that do. And should we punish them and even kill them? And we do as man. But what if God was doing the evil? It says in the bible that evil punishes the wicked. And we are all wicked. Then why not the evil that should punish us?

Isaiah 13:11 Proverbs 11:21 Keep this in mind when solders kill solders and punish them, and even law enforcement kill people and imprison them God Bless.

 

[Mark Corbett]

God will do evil and does, and how do you judge him?

Your comment seems to be at odds with Scripture in several ways, but I will only point out one. God has never done anything evil:

NIV 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

NIV James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

NIV 1 John 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.