Hell is not permanent.

EchoPneuma · Mar 3, 2006

Soul Searcher said:
Here is a little different account that makes a great deal of sense.

Gospel of the Holy Twelve Lection XIV
10. AND behold there came to him two rich men, and one said, Good Master. But he said, Call me not good, for One alone is the All good, and that is God.

11. And the other said to him, Master, what good thing shall I do and live? Jesus said, Perform the Law and the prophets. He answered, I have performed them. Jesus answered, Go, sell all thou hast and divide with the poor, and follow me. But this saying pleased him not.

12. And the Lord said unto him, How sayest thou that thou hast performed the Law and the prophets? Behold many of thy brethren are clad with filthy rags, dying from hunger and thy house is full of much goods, and there goeth from it nought unto them.

13. And he said unto Simon, It is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, for the rich care for themselves, and despise them that have not.

Edit to add: btw in another chapter of this Gospel is the account that we see in the NT also, apparently (according to the text) this is a different rich man that approached at an earlier time.

Is that what is called the "Gospel of the Nazirenes"? If so, I've read portions of it. Supposedly older than our biblical gospels, but with gnostic undertones so it wasn't considered for canonization.

Soul Searcher · Mar 3, 2006

EchoPneuma said:
Is that what is called the "Gospel of the Nazirenes"? If so, I've read portions of it. Supposedly older than our biblical gospels, but with gnostic undertones so it wasn't considered for canonization.

Yes from the info I have found it was called the Gospel of the Nazirenes in it's second printing, also known as the Gospel of Light.

I have my doubts as to the validity of the claims that it was on a perserved Aramaic scrolll in Tibet but that aside it does line up very well with our other Gospels in many ways and in other ways makes a great deal of sense so I see it as a worthwhile read.

timlamb · Mar 3, 2006

Soul Searcher said:
Here is a little different account that makes a great deal of sense.

Gospel of the Holy Twelve Lection XIV
10. AND behold there came to him two rich men, and one said, Good Master. But he said, Call me not good, for One alone is the All good, and that is God.

11. And the other said to him, Master, what good thing shall I do and live? Jesus said, Perform the Law and the prophets. He answered, I have performed them. Jesus answered, Go, sell all thou hast and divide with the poor, and follow me. But this saying pleased him not.

12. And the Lord said unto him, How sayest thou that thou hast performed the Law and the prophets? Behold many of thy brethren are clad with filthy rags, dying from hunger and thy house is full of much goods, and there goeth from it nought unto them.

13. And he said unto Simon, It is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, for the rich care for themselves, and despise them that have not.

Edit to add: btw in another chapter of this Gospel is the account that we see in the NT also, apparently (according to the text) this is a different rich man that approached at an earlier time.

Soul searcher, only one thing bothers me about that quote, "call me not good". that would indicate that the discription "good" didn't fit Jesus. In mark 10:18 Jesus says "Why do you call me good?" ... "No one is good-except God alone." From other referances He made, such as "I and the Father are one" He appears to me to be pointing out that the man knew who He was.
Other than that it seems to be the same story, but 13, in your quote is a very defining statement.
Your quote, and the one in Mark 10, both make another point. Jesus told the man just what to do to have eternal life, choose God over money, and the man didn't choose Jesus way. at least not then. We would hope that after hearing of Jesus death, He would have chosen the Lord.
timlamb

Soul Searcher · Mar 3, 2006

timlamb said:
Soul searcher, only one thing bothers me about that quote, "call me not good". that would indicate that the discription "good" didn't fit Jesus. In mark 10:18 Jesus says "Why do you call me good?" ... "No one is good-except God alone." From other referances He made, such as "I and the Father are one" He appears to me to be pointing out that the man knew who He was.

A valid point but I was under the impression that these men thought of him as a Rabbi and not as God so in that sense the quote seems reasonable. Jesus often referred to himself as the son of man. It is even possible that he did not see himself as perfect but as a humble messanger. I do not know but it seems possible.

Other than that it seems to be the same story, but 13, in your quote is a very defining statement.
Your quote, and the one in Mark 10, both make another point. Jesus told the man just what to do to have eternal life, choose God over money, and the man didn't choose Jesus way. at least not then. We would hope that after hearing of Jesus death, He would have chosen the Lord.
timlamb

I disagree with the idea that these are two different points it's just spelled out more clearly in one case than the other. It does not seem to me like he is saying to choose God over money but to choose the way of God over greed or earthly riches. this way of course would be to use those extra riches to help the poor. See the sheep and the goats for some more context.

The problem with the concept of God over money lets some people believe that if they follow God and preach the Gospel then it is ok to be wealthy, yet the poor, the homeless the sick, they do without while the so called follower has more than they could ever need. Some televanglists are a good example of this. Even worse some are getting very rich while asking for and receiving money from the poor who watch thier shows.

Merzbow · Mar 3, 2006

Der Alter, it seems that you're unwilling to argue via any means other than quoting lines of scripture. To prove to you that such a method is unable to resolve the issue at hand, I will also put up some passages (from various translations, only the first verse numbered):

1 Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each man in his own order.

Colossians 1:20. For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 5:18. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 11:32. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Romans 10:9. If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:11. And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Timothy 4:9. This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Eph 4:10. He who descended [to earth] is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

Joh 12:32. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

And there are plenty more where those came from.

And now we reach an impasse. Those unwilling to draw upon philosophy, reason, interpretation, and personal insight in order to determine what God's real message is in the Bible can't proceed. Throwing scripture verses at each other is Mutually Assured Destruction, for the Bible is NOT RECONCILABLE unless you apply, you guessed it, deep philosophy, reason, interpretation, and insight to its words. You raise me a Lake of Fire, and I'll raise you an Especially of Those Whose Believe. How anyone can be a Bible innerantist just baffles me.

kepp · Mar 3, 2006

Merzbow said:
And now we reach an impasse. Those unwilling to draw upon philosophy, reason, interpretation, and personal insight in order to determine what God's real message is in the Bible can't proceed. Throwing scripture verses at each other is Mutually Assured Destruction, for the Bible is NOT RECONCILABLE unless you apply, you guessed it, deep philosophy, reason, interpretation, and insight to its words.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;" -Proverbs 3:5

"Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind." -Ecclesiastes 1:17

"To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.
What he tears down cannot be rebuilt; the man he imprisons cannot be released." -Job 12:13-14

Are we to try to gain understanding about God? Yes, of course - that's the first thing that the first proverb says - "for attaining wisdom and discipline; for understanding words of insight;". Are we to lean on our own understanding? No.

Merzbow · Mar 3, 2006

kepp said:
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;" -Proverbs 3:5

"Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind." -Ecclesiastes 1:17

"To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.
What he tears down cannot be rebuilt; the man he imprisons cannot be released." -Job 12:13-14

Are we to try to gain understanding about God? Yes, of course - that's the first thing that the first proverb says - "for attaining wisdom and discipline; for understanding words of insight;". Are we to lean on our own understanding? No.

Matthew 16-17. Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

So we are not to rely on the understanding of others. That leaves my own understanding. Not God's understanding, for if God wanted us all to have a perfect understanding of His message he would simply have rearranged the thoughts in our head. But instead, He gave us a Bible, and quite a large one at that, not in His words exactly (or the book wouldn't have such a chaotic history and organization) but filtered through dozens of prophets, all individual and unique men.

kepp · Mar 3, 2006

Merzbow said:
Matthew 16-17. Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

So we are not to rely on the understanding of others. That leaves my own understanding. Not God's understanding, for if God wanted us all to have a perfect understanding of His message he would simply have rearranged the thoughts in our head.

I said nothing about relying on others' understanding. The proverb I quoted speaks of the danger of leaning on our own understanding as opposed to God and His word.

Merzbow said:
But instead, He gave us a Bible, and quite a large one at that, not in His words exactly (or the book wouldn't have such a chaotic history and organization) but filtered through dozens of prophets, all individual and unique men.

I see, so we have God's "filtered" word...not saying exactly what He meant. The Bible has a chaotic history because of the hearts of men, not because God has a communication problem.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." -John 1:1-2,14a

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." -2 Peter 1:19-21

God's word is not incomplete, imperfect, misleading or from men.

EchoPneuma · Mar 3, 2006

Merzbow said:
Matthew 16-17. Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

So we are not to rely on the understanding of others. That leaves my own understanding. Not God's understanding, for if God wanted us all to have a perfect understanding of His message he would simply have rearranged the thoughts in our head. But instead, He gave us a Bible, and quite a large one at that, not in His words exactly (or the book wouldn't have such a chaotic history and organization) but filtered through dozens of prophets, all individual and unique men.

John said that if Christ is within us, that we need no man to teach us, because the anointing of Christ teaches us all things...

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeitjust as it has taught you, remain in him.

I don't see how it could be any clearer. Flesh and blood doesn't teach us any longer, it will be revealed to us by Christ within our own temple/body. He is our spiritual guide and teacher now. To me it's amazing that some would rather still go to another man for spiritual insight and instruction rather than to the Lord within. But I suppose it's because it's too ( cue twilight zone music) "mystical" and we're taught to be afraid of that type of stuff and never trust our "feelings" about anything. Yet, on the road to Emmaus those disciples talked about "feeling" a "burning in their heart" (what the Mormons call a burning in the bosom) when they were being enlightened by Jesus concerning the scriptures. Maybe they should have just ignored it all and pooh poohed off what Jesus said as just some weird "feelings".....and stuck with what the religious teachers were telling them was truth. Stay in the comfort zone....yeah...that's the ticket.

EchoPneuma · Mar 3, 2006

kepp said:
I said nothing about relying on others' understanding. The proverb I quoted speaks of the danger of leaning on our own understanding as opposed to God and His word.
I see, so we have God's "filtered" word...not saying exactly what He meant. The Bible has a chaotic history because of the hearts of men, not because God has a communication problem.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." -John 1:1-2,14a

This is referring to Jesus who is the living Word of God.

"

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Do you think they were referring to the bible? It wasn't even in existence for another couple hundred years after this was written. The reason the word of the prophets was now more certain, was because the living WORD was among them and was preaching and teaching.

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." -2 Peter 1:19-21

That's right. This shows that scriptures must be INTERPRETED. What this means is that we aren't supposed to trust any man's interpretation of scripture since it didn't have it's origin in the interpretation of a man. We must trust GOD ALONE to enlighten us to what ANY scripture means because man will always give you his OWN interpretation....which may OR MAY NOT be the correct one. God ALONE knows the correct one.

God's word is not incomplete, imperfect, misleading or from men.

In it's original state as penned by the apostles, you are correct, unfortunately we don't have that today. We have translations of translations of translations.....some of them not so bad....some of them horrible.

Those first century Christians who actually held in their hands the original writings of the apostles...held the unedited, inerrant, complete, perfect revelation from God. What we have today is close....but no cigar. Just read some of the writings of the early church fathers (within the first 150 or so years of the church) like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Justin Martyr and see some of the quotes that they quote from THEIR scriptures of that day......many of those scriptures that they quote are no longer in OUR bibles today. Those guys were reading from scripture that was BEFORE Constantine and the Roman Church came on the scene and our bible we have today is AFTER. In between....changes were made. The scriptures they were reading and quoting from are different from ours. Which ones do you think would be more accurate?

kepp · Mar 3, 2006

EchoPneuma said:
John said that if Christ is within us, that we need no man to teach us, because the anointing of Christ teaches us all things...

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeitjust as it has taught you, remain in him.

I don't see how it could be any clearer.

It could be clearer if presented in its full context:

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichristhe denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised useven eternal life.
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeitjust as it has taught you, remain in him."

He was expressing concern and issuing a warning about anti-Christs to those who were prone to accept anyone's teaching as "gospel". I think of it along the same lines as 2 Peter 2.

I agree that Christians today are too quick to seek out advice from other men before wholeheartedly seeking it from God - I think you make a very good point there - but I do believe that God annoints teachers (Ephesians 4:11, James 3:1) to help us out as well.

kepp · Mar 3, 2006

EchoPneuma said:
That's right. This shows that scriptures must be INTERPRETED. What this means is that we aren't supposed to trust any man's interpretation of scripture since it didn't have it's origin in the interpretation of a man. We must trust GOD ALONE to enlighten us to what ANY scripture means because man will always give you his OWN interpretation....which may OR MAY NOT be the correct one. God ALONE knows the correct one.

Any information must be interpreted in order to be applied to a specific situation. I believe, however, that a portion of the enlightenment that God gives us comes through other men (I suppose this is similar to my most recent reply to another of your posts - Ephesians 4:11, James 3:1).

EchoPneuma said:
In it's original state as penned by the apostles, you are correct, unfortunately we don't have that today. We have translations of translations of translations.....some of them not so bad....some of them horrible.

Do you believe that any of the translations encompass all of what God presented the early Christians with?

EchoPneuma said:
Those first century Christians who actually held in their hands the original writings of the apostles...held the unedited, inerrant, complete, perfect revelation from God. What we have today is close....but no cigar. Just read some of the writings of the early church fathers (within the first 150 or so years of the church) like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Justin Martyr and see some of the quotes that they quote from THEIR scriptures of that day......many of those scriptures that they quote are no longer in OUR bibles today. Those guys were reading from scripture that was BEFORE Constantine and the Roman Church came on the scene and our bible we have today is AFTER. In between....changes were made. The scriptures they were reading and quoting from are different from ours. Which ones do you think would be more accurate?

I'd be interested in seeing an example of the scripture quotes you're speaking of. I own several volumes of anti-nicene writings and I have yet to read a quote that I don't recognize from my Bible. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I haven't read any...and I've read a lot of the early writings.

kepp · Mar 3, 2006

This thread is slowly changing focus, huh?

EchoPneuma · Mar 3, 2006

kepp said:
This thread is slowly changing focus, huh?

Apparently so. Perhaps another thread....

I will see if I can dig up some references to those early church writings. I can't do it this evening because I have a class to teach....but I will get to it as soon as possible and post them. Thanks for being patient.

Merzbow · Mar 3, 2006

kepp said:
I said nothing about relying on others' understanding. The proverb I quoted speaks of the danger of leaning on our own understanding as opposed to God and His word.
I see, so we have God's "filtered" word...not saying exactly what He meant. The Bible has a chaotic history because of the hearts of men, not because God has a communication problem.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." -John 1:1-2,14a

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." -2 Peter 1:19-21

God's word is not incomplete, imperfect, misleading or from men.

Although the Bible is God's word, I don't think that it is God's WORDS. I think that it is the words of God-inspired men. Somehow God imparted them an understanding of whatever it is they were to write about, but being human their attempts at conveying this understanding were imperfect - an imperfection inherent to the original authored documents above and beyond any translation errors that have crept in over the years (which actually are remarkably few). Of course these prophets were carried along by the Holy Spirit, but in no way does that mean that they were being dictated to by God.

Therefore it is our task as Christians to try to figure out what these prophets really understood by approaching their words in context with history, philosophy, the rest of the Bible, common sense, and yes, personal inspiration from God. But in no way can we take personal inspiration from God as the only method, since guess what, we aren't prophets. God has not chosen to bless us with the same type of understanding He gave His actual prophets.

Children of Light · Mar 3, 2006

If people have felt the same way as I have on this forum then I sincerely doubt that they would be such believers of hell as they are.
People in the end stage of cancer with the mets to bones, with the excrutiating pain assoc with that, the vomiting constantly from chemo...I think if you asked most people in that state if they could believe in a place where a soul would have to deal with that feeling constantly for all eternity, I think the reaction you would receive would not be an affirmation that such a place could possibly exist. Or if it did exist that anyone on earth justifiably deserved the fate of such a place.
I mean if as daneel has said, these people who believe in hell as I do have come to a place where they are now accepting its reality and are not fervently praying every day for hells total annihalation, then these people that daneel talk of,

I mean what are you trying to prove by proving its existance? Sure ok I got it, it says in the bible about the burning fire, you believe that, I got it, then start praying daily that it shouldnt exist, because I may end up there or someone I know may end up there, and many unbelievers may end up there. Pray for its end, dont run around talking about its existance.
Ok so Ill side with you. Hell exists. Now am I suppossed to love my brother or sister? What if they die tomorrow an unbeliever? What am I supposed to do now. Hope that I dont end up with them in hell(by the way that is such a selfish thought that I can barely contain my spirit from jumping out my skin). So my brother that I love may end up in hell since he died a nonbeliever. I am a believer. If my brother whom I loved ends up in hell and I go to heaven, well there will be no tears in heaven so that means 1)I only remember the good things about my brother, my memory of his hell status is erased 2)my memory of him is erased 3)another artificial memory is implanted of him being in heaven.
Since to me none of these three things seem like God the father would have in His heaven I therefore do not believe in

Hell is so bad, that I pray that Satan doesnt end up there, or at least not the hell you all have mentioned the eternal fire that never is quenched, I cant deal with it.

Soul Searcher · Mar 3, 2006

How anyone could truly believe in this horrible place they call hell and ever be able to sleep at night is beyond my comprehension.

newyorksaint · Mar 3, 2006

Soul Searcher said:
How anyone could truly believe in this horrible place they call hell and ever be able to sleep at night is beyond my comprehension.

I believe that Hell isn't a real place of real fire and brimstone, but that is used as a metaphor to give credence to something really horrible. I believe that the most horrible thing someone can endur is seperation from God. Even here, on Earth, we aren't completely seperated from God.

I believe, after the Resurrection, and the Judgement, those who are going to "Hell", are really going to be seperated forever from the presence of God.

Personally, it scares the willies out of me. I don't want that. I do wish that there was hope for those who are going there.

Der Alte · Mar 3, 2006

Soul Searcher said:
[SIZE=-1]How anyone could truly believe in this horrible place they call hell and ever be able to sleep at night is beyond my comprehension.[/SIZE]

How anyone can read the Bible and not see, recognize, understand, that there is a horrible place they call hell and ever able to sleep at night is beyond me.

God is not interested in what you, or I, think, believe, assume, presume, want, hope, wish, desire, etc. is right, good, just, merciful, gracious, etc. about God’s punishment. The only thing that matters is God’s word, all of God’s word, not just a few out-of-context proof texts.

Feel free to actually read the Bible and respond to these passages. I have read and am not interested in your personal opinions, assumptions, and presuppositions.

I have already posted extensive documentation, noted Greek lexicons, dictionaries, concordances, etc. Here! and the post following it. Read them or don’t, believe them or don’t. Scoff at them, I don’t care. Anyone who ignores/rejects the truth and causes even one lost sheep to miss salvation will answer to God, not me.

Jesus on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Twenty seven (27) passages. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will [size=+1]say[/size][sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[sup]2[/sup] Note ,Jesus did NOT say they “have done many wonderful works” but they only “say” they have.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[6] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[7] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[8] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[9] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[10] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]3[/sup] Is there any scripture that documents any “conversion,” ever, after death?
[11] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

[12] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[13] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[14] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[15] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[16] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[17] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[18] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

[19] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[20] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

[21] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[22] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[23] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and . thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, . between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us [sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in the place of torment cannot leave.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[24] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

[25] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[26] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water and the spirit, after death?
[27] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Rev 13:9-11:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, […] He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Cf. Rev 20:10: And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Ten thousand times ten thousand eons from now, God’s eternal, unchanging word will still say, “There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image.”

Despite what the ancients may have thought, brimstone, i.e. sulfur, has no cleansing or purifying properties. John may not have known that, when he wrote Revelation, but God did.

Der Alte · Mar 3, 2006

Jewish thoughts on hell and eternal punishment.

Jewish Encyclopedia- GEHENNA By : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

Nature and Situation.
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna).
Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach dem Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22).
It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).
Judgment.
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).
There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b)

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

The definition of [size=+1]שאל[/size]/sheol from the world renowned Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament.

[size=+1]שְׁאוֹל[/size] [size=+1]שאל[/size] n.f. (appar. m.) Sheol, underworld 1. the underworld, [size=+1]תַּחְתִּית[/size] [size=+1]שׁ[/size], [size=+1]מִתַּחַת[/size]; under mts. and sea; and bars; personif. (||[size=+1]מות[/size]) as insatiable monster; as said (fig.) to have snares, [size=+1]שׁ[/size] [size=+1]חֶבְלֵי[/size] (opp. [size=+1]לְמָעְלָה[/size]) (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return; all being alike; without work or knowledge or wisdom. 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. In [size=+1]שׁ[/size]: a. wicked; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away; [size=+1]שׁ[/size] consumes them as drought water; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple); deliverance from it a blessing. b. righteous shall not be abandoned. 3. later distinction of places in [size=+1]שׁ[/size]: a. depths of [size=+1]שׁ[/size] for sensualist. 4. [size=+1]שׁ[/size] fig. of extreme degradation in sin; as place of exile for Israel.

[size=-1]Whitaker, R., Brown, F., Driver, S. (. R., & Briggs, C. A. (. A. 1997, c1906. The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament : From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, based on the Lexicon[/size]

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

III [size=+1]עלם[/size] [size=+1]עולם[/size]. n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity 1. of past time: a. ancient time: ymy olam days of old; am olam, ancient people; hrbwt olam, old waste places; ptkhy olam, ancient gates; mn (m)olam, from of old, of the fathers, the prophets, the ancient bhm olam: nplym, long in them. b. mty olam , the long dead. c. of God, molam : former acts; as redeemer; of love, judgment, dominion; long silence; his wisdom personif.; his existence. d. of things: gbawt olam, ancient hills. e. pl. awlmym shnwt, years of ancient times;almym, in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep.for ever, always (sts. = during the lifetime); abd awlm, slave for ever; abd lolam, serve for ever; galt olam, redemption at any time; hrt olam, ever pregnant (womb); klmt olam of persecutors of Jeremiah; shlwy olam, alway at ease; (yhyh) yhy lolam, may the king live always; so of the pious; other phr.; olam ashyrh, I will sing for ever (as long as I live); other emotions and activities continuous throught life. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth; other phr., heavens and contents, ruined cities, ruined lands; lad ad olam, for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: (Babylon loqu.); yshb lolam, of Judah; (3) families; the dynasty of Saul; house of Eli; (4) national relations: aybt olam, continual enmity; of exclusion from ad olam, qhl ylam; various relations; khrpt olam, perpetual reproach, of dynasty of David, families. c. of divine existence: hy holam; hy anky lolam; alhy olam; al olm; of divine name, zh shmy lolam; blessing and praise of it; of YHWH himself; attributes, ahbh; reign; presence in Zion; his salvation; zrat olam, everlasting arms. d. of Gods covenant: bryt olam, everlasting covenant; covenant with Noah, ld r t olam 5; God remembers it; will not break it, lolam. e. of Gods laws; temple to bear Gods name, ad olam; consecrated; its ceremonies; Levit. priesthood; Aaronic priesthood. f. of Gods promises: his word, yqwm lolam; promised dynasty of David; of holy land; given lolam, inherited lolam; dwelt in ad olam; other blessings; Jerus. to abide lolam . g. of relations between God and his people, lolam. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (l)olam; having divine throne; name endures; established; God blesses him; of his reign. i. = indefinite, unending future: live hwbyaym hlolam yhyw lolam, the prophets, can they live for ever?; c. neg. never. j. after death. k. = age (duration) of the world: at halm ntn blbm, the age of the world he hath set, etc. 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity. m. special phr.: m(h)olam (w)ad (h)olam (mn) from everlasting to everlasting, of yolam; khsd yolam; benedictions; the land given; wad olam math, from now and for ever (i.e. as long as one lives); of peoples hope in God; dynasty of David; of Gods acts, words, etc.; v. further I. ad.

[size=-1]Whitaker, R., Brown, F., Driver, S. (. R., & Briggs, C. A. (. A. 1997, c1906. The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament : From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, based on the lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius, 1833. Edited by Richard Whitaker (Princeton Theological Seminary). Text provided by Princeton Theological Seminary. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor WA.[/size]

Hell is not permanent.

Well-Known Member

The kingdom is within

Senior Veteran

The kingdom is within

Active Member

Member

Active Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Hebrews 11:6

The kingdom is within

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency