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Katallasso quotes:
Certainly not me.....but all those that believe in an eternal hell do.
Where does it show all these coming to an end?
the Beast
the harlot of Babylon
the Woman with Child
the 3 unclean spirits like frogs
the beast out of the earth
the beast out of the sea
the dragon
and so on and so on?
As FineLinen so aptly put it.
In order that in the Name of Jesus (so that in adoration of the Name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
daneel said:Ok. As I believe in an eternal LOF, show me where I said 'G-d is not able to redeem all'.
As far as Scripture shows, there is no end to the LOF.
I didn't say you said He couldn't. I said, in so many words, that the belief in eternal damnation infers that He can't.
To the adoration...?
Yes, all knees will bend. All will be subject to Him. Even the enemies beneath His footstool.
Every tongue shall confess Jesus is LOrd.
And all to the Glory of God.
Unfortunately, "to the adoration of..." is not shown in the Scriptures.
O I C! We are only supposed play just certain cards that pertain to Revelation, and hide the rest? Thats called cheating, isn't it?timlamb said:Havahope, if you play the symbolisum card, everything goes up to the imagination, you discredit Revelation, end of discussion. I just deleted three paragraphs, because I just remembered I was staying out of this.
daneel, you have made your point well, however, there is no truth for those who choose not to believe.
this whole discussion has become a lesson in futility.
timlamb
der Alter said:Ah, yes. The old cop-out answer of every false religion there ever was. SPAM-FIG. Anything, in scripture, that contradicts their false religion, is either Symbolic, Poetic, Allegorical, Metaphorical, or Figurative, not literal. And the only things in scripture that are not SPAM-FIG, you guessed it, supports the false religion.
Havahope said:[SIZE=-1]O I C! We are only supposed play just certain cards that pertain to Revelation, and hide the rest? Thats called cheating, isn't it?
Well, let me ask you this: Do you believe that some day a literal beast who has seven heads, ten horns, and who looks like a leopard, but has feet like a bear, and a mouth like a lion is going to rise up out of a literal sea, and take over world rulership?
And do you believe that a literal dragon (serpent) is going to be caught by an angel, bound with literal chains and cast into a literal bottomless pit?
No? Well then, how did you come to the conclusion that someday the dead, small and great, are literally going to stand before God and be judged out of things written in literal books, according to their works, and whosoever among them is not found written in a literal book of life will be cast into a literal lake of fire?
OTOH, if by some chance your answer to my first questions would be "yes", then please contact me. I have a collection of wooden nickles that I would love to sell to you.[/SIZE]
Havahope said:[SIZE=-1]Well, tell me something, Der. In your valuable opinion, are the verses below Symbolic, Poetic, Allegorical, Metaphorical, Figurative or Literal?
Rev. 21: 7. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."[/SIZE]
tattedsaint said:[SIZE=-1]Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. Clement of Alexandria
[/SIZE]
thank you for clearing up the two quotes of two of church fathers.Der Alter said:In an above post there are a bunch of alleged quotes from early church fathers, blindly, cut and pasted from hellbusted or tentburner. They are posted to support the false doctrine of universalism.
First every quote is worthless as evidence of anything. They are identified by name and a date, only. Which of the many writings of each person is the quote from? What is the context?
Second, I previously posted actual, first hand, quotes from some of these same fathers proving that they did not espouse universal salvation. My post was totally ignored.
So all you universalists keep on proving how false your doctrine is. That is why you are forced to copy/paste from these phony universalist websites.
Here is what Irenaeus actually wrote, with a link to the actual primary source, for verification.Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 4, Disciple of Polycarp a disciple of John, 120-202 AD
Chapter 27 The Future Judgment By Christ. Communion With And Separation From The Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment Of Unbelievers.
Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.
God showed Himself not well pleased in many instances towards those who sinned, so also in the latter, “many are called, but few are chosen.” As then the unrighteous, the idolaters, and fornicators perished, so also is it now: for both the Lord declares, that such persons are sent into eternal fire; and the apostle says, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, not effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Chapter 28
1. Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David
also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth”, entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it, — the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavor to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples.
Chapter 28
when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” these shall be damned for ever;
Chapter 39
For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.
Chapter 52 He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P7979_2198226
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 5
The breath, then, is temporal, but the Spirit eternal.
Let those persons, therefore, who blaspheme the Creator, either by openly expressed words, such as the disciples of Marcion, or by a perversion of the sense [of Scripture], as those of Valentinus and all the Gnostics falsely so called, be recognized as agents of Satan by all those who worship God; through whose agency Satan now, and not before, has been seen to speak against God, even Him who has prepared eternal fire for every kind of apostasy.
Chapter 26 Truly has Justin remarked: That before the Lord’s appearance Satan never dared to blaspheme God, inasmuch as he did not yet know his own sentence, because it was contained in parables and allegories; but that after the Lord’s appearance, when he had clearly ascertained from the words of Christ and His apostles that eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.
Chapter 27 The Future Judgment By Christ. Communion With And Separation From The Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment Of Unbelievers
And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of all good.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-63.htm#P8900_2545577
Quoted from the primary source, Theophilus.Theophilus to Autolycus Book I
do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, “We have not heard, neither have we known.” But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither hath eye seen, nor ear heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive. But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-41.htm#P1399_405324
Theophilus Book 2
And they also taught us to refrain from unlawful idolatry, and adultery, and murder, fornication, theft, avarice, false swearing, wrath, and every incontinence and uncleanness; and that whatever a man would not wish to be done to himself, he should not do to another; and thus he who acts righteously shall escape the eternal punishments, and be thought worthy of the eternal life from God.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-42.htm#P1469_430289
Direct quote from the primary source.Clement of Alexandria VI.-From the Book on the Soul.
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked, for whom it were better that they were not deathless. For, punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and not dying, it is impossible for them to have a, period put to their misery.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-79.htm#P10261_2871673
Clement of Alexandria Exhortation to the Heathen
For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: “He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men’s minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-50.htm#P2691_785581
Clement of Alexandria Who is the Rich Man that Shall Be Saved?
For though sparing, and aiming at testing, who will receive meritoriously or not, it is possible for you to neglect some that are loved by God; the penalty for which is the punishment of eternal fire.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-86.htm#P10493_2903393
tattedsaint said:[SIZE=-1]thank you for clearing up the two quotes of two of church fathers.
yet you didn't go against the rest of my responses....including the Bible scriptures quotes, and you didn't prove universalism wrong, by a misquote. i'm sure someone else on this forum has misquoted someone beforeand those verses you can't mis-read.[/SIZE]
daneel said:The 'new Jerusalem' is literal, the 'as a bride adorned.." is symbolic, figurative.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to decieve."Der Alter said:What part of this do you think is not literal and why? I see you have emphasized "all liars." IIRC you think you know something about me, that you have convinced yourself is a lie. And OBTW, I have two birthdays, don't you?
daneel said:Of course there is need to mention it. Then it would be fact. If someone is to proffer and end to the LOF, the eternal torment of the rejection of Gods offer of Grace, then there is the need to show from Scripture that this will happen.
The 'new Jerusalem' is literal, the 'as a bride adorned.." is symbolic, figurative.
Havahope said:Who said?
Did you have a revelation of your own that told you this?
It never ceases to amaze me how that some seem to be able to jump from symbolic to literal in a blink of the eye, without any problem. Especially when literal suits their doctrine better.
Havahope said:
Who said?
Did you have a revelation of your own that told you this?
It never ceases to amaze me how that some seem to be able to jump from symbolic to literal in a blink of the eye, without any problem. Especially when literal suits their doctrine better.
Deraj said:The part sentence; "The new Jerusalem prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" is broken down into two parts. The first part is; "The new Jeruslem", which is the subject of the simile which follows, and could also be taken either literally or metaphorically. The second part is; "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". This in itself is the simile. If you compare this simile with "black as coal", "black" plays the same part as "prepared" and "bride adorned for her husband" plays the same part as "coal".
"new Jerusalem" could just as easily be a metaphorical name given to a city, as it could be a literal name for the city. It isn't a simile, but it could be a metaphor to show how it is to be similar to the old Jerusalem, but not actually the same. A good example of a metaphor is;
All the world's a stage, (primary metaphor)
And all the men and women merely players (secondary metaphor)
They have their exits and their entrances; (the similarities that make them metaphors)Shakespeare.
You can not prove that something is metaphorical unless it has the first part of the metaphor included, which in the case of the metaphor; "all the world's a stage", would be; "all the world". The last part off the metaphor in the example is; "a stage". In the sentence that Havahope and Daneel are currently trying to argue, there is only the last part, if it is a metaphor, which is "The new Jerusalem". "The new Jerusalem" in the sentence you are arguing about, by itself, cannot be shown decisively either way, whether it is metaphorically speaking or literal. If you can find the same phrase again elsewhere with the first part of the metaphor, then you could show it to be a metaphor, otherwise you have to accept that either way could be correct.
I am afraid, that I don't think it is possible to prove something is literal, but in most cases, people speak literally.
daneel said:Contained within the new Jerusalem are walls, gates, foundations, it is measured physically, etc. etc. etc.......
If you want to take it metaphorically, or whatever, is your choice.
Just please don't try and sell it to me, cuz I aint buying that kool-aid.
Sure thing, daneel.daneel said:No, no revelation. I just read what is written. I actually jumped from literal to symbolic though, and not the other way 'round.
Let's see now,
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
John sees the holy city coming down from God out of heaven, and, oh, prepared as a bride for her husband.
I still see a literal to figurative/symbolic.
But thanx for trying, anyway.
Deraj said:Was I trying to sell it to you? no. But I was pointing out that it could be argued as metaphorical as well as literal. In fact, I mostly think it is literal.
Havahope said:Sure thing, daneel.
Something tells me that even if I did all that, you still wouldn't get it.daneel said:anytime
Maybe you can show just what is literal and what is metaphorical, analogous, descriptive of, likened to, associated with, paralelled, corresponds to, complemented, compares to, interrelated, intertwined, interwoven, knit together, pertinent and relevant to, and interconnected with with the writings of John in regards to the new Jerusalem?
please be thorough in your compendium, succinct in summary, laconic yet pithy, synoptic, yet condensed and terse and in plain english so I can understand.
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