Hell is a correctional jail

Ben12 · Aug 29, 2007

Romans 4:16 speaks of "the faith of Abraham," and if we possess this faith we would obviously do the works of Abraham. As we also read, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." [John 8:39]. To hold his vision, to have his faith, results in his way of living.
If you have the "faith of the Baptists" you would live in accordance to their creed and doctrine. lf you have the "faith of the Pentecostals' you would follow their mode of living. And if you have the "faith of the Catholics" you would be following their religious system, form, and ceremony. But we are not speaking of these kinds of faith, i.e. system of beliefs, as good as they might be in their own share, and as much as God has used them in former days. But we now address ourselves to that specific faith, that which is GOD-IMPARTED, which indeed Abraham also possessed. And "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." [Galatians 3:7]. As Abraham received directly FROM GOD, so also we would receive directly FROM GOD, by the indwelling of the holy Spirit-- and as such would be counted as the children of Abraham, following God in like manner.
"But before the faith came, we were kept under (guarded by) the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." [Galatians 3:23-25].
In all cases, in the Greek text, in this passage it is identified as THE FAITH. Abraham had received this faith, however much in a mystery capsule it was given to him, for "the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [Galatians 3:23-25].
Long before the gospel-- or GOOD NEWS was announced, yes, even prior to the dispensation of the law which preceded the good news, God already spoke some of the MYSTERY OF THE FAITH into Abraham, and He lived by that faith. "Abraham BELIEVED GOD . . ." [Romans 4:3].
But it wasn't time for the "mystery of the faith" to be revealed, and so God instituted the law, which served as a schoolmaster until . . . so note this word "schoolmaster" from a Greek word that literally means "a child-conductor." The child-conductor was that servant which simply guarded and kept the child between home and school, until they could safely commit the child into the hand of the teacher. So also, the law was given, to hold in restraint until Christ, The Teacher, The Faith, (Editor's note: The Revelator), should come, and then the lesser ministry was swallowed up into the greater.

LJSGM · Aug 29, 2007

Ben12 said:
Not just faith fom God. BUT: "Accordance with the measure of faith God has given you". Some 30, 60 and 100 fold.

Faith to perform, not faith as in belief. If your performance/works is greater, it's because you have greater faith, that which has been given to you. It's the Holy Spirit that empowers us.

There is no "measure" in belief, higher or lower, you either believe or you don't. Perhaps you two are getting it mixed up.

LJSGM · Aug 29, 2007

There is also a way to over spiritualize everything, just as there is a way to over literalize everything as well.

LJSGM · Aug 29, 2007

for instance, I have even heard some universalists say that Christ did not come in the flesh, but only metaphorically/spiritually.

1 John 4

2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

james415 · Aug 29, 2007

Ben12 said:
Not just faith fom God. BUT: "Accordance with the measure of faith God has given you". Some 30, 60 and 100 fold.

Understand; Thanks Ben.

This threat keeps going round and round. Makes a guy kind of dizzy.

Looks like its about to take another hard left turn.

See ya!

Tavita · Aug 29, 2007

LJSGM said:
for instance, I have even heard some universalists say that Christ did not come in the flesh, but only metaphorically/spiritually.

1 John 4

2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

We have to be careful not to mistake Christian Universalism for Unitarian Universalism. They are very different. Christian Universalists believe in the tenets of the Nicene Creed, even though some Universalists may say they don't believe in having creeds of men.

We are all different, and believe different things about Universalism and many are a part of various denominations within Christiandom. It is about the only doctrinal belief Universalists have that is different to most Christians, but branded as heresy. It is only a doctrinal difference and we are called more than anything else to love and honor one another.

Zecryphon · Aug 29, 2007

Tavita said:
We have to be careful not to mistake Christian Universalism for Unitarian Universalism. They are very different. Christian Universalists believe in the tenets of the Nicene Creed, even though some Universalists may say they don't believe in having creeds of men.

We are all different, and believe different things about Universalism and many are a part of various denominations within Christiandom. It is about the only doctrinal belief Universalists have that is different to most Christians, but branded as heresy. It is only a doctrinal difference and we are called more than anything else to love and honor one another.

"We have to be careful not to mistake Christian Universalism for Unitarian Universalism. They are very different."

How so? Aren't Unitarians Christians? You make it sound as if you think they may not be, because Christian universalism is different than what the Unitarians believe.

"Christian Universalists believe in the tenets of the Nicene Creed, even though some Universalists may say they don't believe in having creeds of men."

A creed is a statement of belief, nothing more. The Apostle's, Nicene and Athanasian creeds are just that, statements of belief. All of them are backed up by the scriptures. To deny a creed is to deny scripturally supported statements about God. Why would any Christian do that?

Also, if Universalists deny the creeds of men, who came up with the idea of universalism? Isn't Universalism a teaching of men based upon their own interpretation of the scriptures? If the standard for disregarding a creed is that it was written by men, then Universalism and all other doctrines taught by men must be discarded as well, if you're going to be consistent in the application of this standard.

Tavita · Aug 29, 2007

Zecryphon said:
How so? Aren't Unitarians Christians? You make it sound as if you think they may not be, because Christian universalism is different than what the Unitarians believe.

Did I say they weren't Christian? Show me where I said that. I said they were different and not to be mistaken for Christian Universalism.. another name is Ultimate Reconciliationists, and they ARE different. If you don't think so then go take a look. All Christian denominations hold different views from other denoms.. as if we didn't know that. Does that mean we're not Christian? I don't want to be mistaken for a Unitarian Christian Universalist.. okay!?

A creed is a statement of belief, nothing more. The Apostle's, Nicene and Athanasian creeds are just that, statements of belief. All of them are backed up by the scriptures. To deny a creed is to deny scripturally supported statements about God. Why would any Christian do that?

There are many Christians who are not Universalists who DON'T believe in men keeping creeds. Why do you assume things I have not said?

I'm a Universalist and I believe in all the tenets of the Nicene Creed.

Also, if Universalists deny the creeds of men, who came up with the idea of universalism? Isn't Universalism a teaching of men based upon their own interpretation of the scriptures? If the standard for disregarding a creed is that it was written by men, then Universalism and all other doctrines taught by men must be discarded as well, if you're going to be consistent in the application of this standard.

This is just a follow on from assuming all the above.

Zecryphon · Aug 29, 2007

Tavita said:
Did I say they weren't Christian? Show me where I said that. I said they were different and not to be mistaken for Christian Universalism.. another name is Ultimate Reconciliationists, and they ARE different. If you don't think so then go take a look. All Christian denominations hold different views from other denoms.. as if we didn't know that. Does that mean we're not Christian? I don't want to be mistaken for a Unitarian Christian Universalist.. okay!?

There are many Christians who are not Universalists who DON'T believe in men keeping creeds. Why do you assume things I have not said?

I'm a Universalist and I believe in all the tenets of the Nicene Creed.

This is just a follow on from assuming all the above.

"Did I say they weren't Christian? Show me where I said that."

You originally wrote: "We have to be careful not to mistake Christian Universalism for Unitarian Universalism. They are very different."

It is possible to take that statement to mean that Unitarians might not be Christians. That is why I asked you to explain what you meant. No need to get all uptight and defensive about it. LOL

"I said they were different and not to be mistaken for Christian Universalism."

Right, and therefore if something is not Christian, what is it? People automatically conclude it is not Christian. So if Unitarian Universalism is not Christian Universalism, what is it? It's a belief that is unique to Unitarians and not to Christians. So if it's not a belief held by Christians, it must be a belief held by non-Christians. See the line of thinking here?

"Another name is Ultimate Reconciliationists, and they ARE different. If you don't think so then go take a look."

I don't care. I think all Universalists are heretics! LOL Plus it is not my job to provide proof for your assertion. You stated that there is a difference between the two schools of thought on Universalism, the burden of proof is upon you, not me.

"All Christian denominations hold different views from other denoms.. as if we didn't know that. Does that mean we're not Christian?"

Depends on what the differences in belief are. There are some things that are not debatable. Other things are debatable. Repentance of sins and faith in Christ for salvation is not debatable. Infant baptism for salvation, the Lord's Supper, these things are considered debatable by most Protestant denominations. This is where a lot of division arises, along with other issues.

"I don't want to be mistaken for a Unitarian Christian Universalist.. okay!?"

Why not? What's so wrong about Unitarian Universalism? As far as I'm concerned you're non-denom according to your icon, that's good enough for me. I really don't care what you are. I just deal with what you type and ask questions when things are unclear.

Quote:
A creed is a statement of belief, nothing more. The Apostle's, Nicene and Athanasian creeds are just that, statements of belief. All of them are backed up by the scriptures. To deny a creed is to deny scripturally supported statements about God. Why would any Christian do that?

"There are many Christians who are not Universalists who DON'T believe in men keeping creeds. Why do you assume things I have not said?"

There's nothing to keep in a creed, since it is a statement of belief. If you do not believe the statements made in a creed about God and Christ, how can you be said to be a Christian, since you disagree with the statements made by the creed about God and Christ? This isn't about YOU, this is about your statements. You're a little sensitive here and I have given you absolutely no reason to be.

"I'm a Universalist and I believe in all the tenets of the Nicene Creed."

Okay.

Quote:
Also, if Universalists deny the creeds of men, who came up with the idea of universalism? Isn't Universalism a teaching of men based upon their own interpretation of the scriptures? If the standard for disregarding a creed is that it was written by men, then Universalism and all other doctrines taught by men must be discarded as well, if you're going to be consistent in the application of this standard.

"This is just a follow on from assuming all the above."

Where's the assumption? I asked two direct questions about Universalism and you have chosen to ignore them. I will have to draw my own conclusions from that.

Shiversblood · Aug 29, 2007

Why must the chances to go to heaven end when someone dies. Why not have the correctional hell jail. Some people live longer then others anyways. Such as two 21 year olds both criminals one dies goes to hell the other lives untill he is 70 and has changed his life and goes to heaven. If this is right, then God has just sent a bad person to heaven, and sent a decent guy to hell who probaly would have changed his life and actually done more good than three other men combined who went to heaven, all because the guy died in a tragic accident that was not his fault at all and he was 21, thus he must be in hell forever?? And soooo many others who arent even good people at all but become good people and Christian when they are 90 or so only because they KNOW they are going to die soon, unlike the 21 year old who thought he had his whole life ahead of him. it brings me back to the same question I always have in my mind but can never awnser why do so many bad people go to heaven and why do so many good go to hell.

Why do Christians even want to go into Prisons and preach to bad men serveing long sentences. Why would we WANT them to be christians? So they can go to heaven even they are horrible people in the past and so many decent men are in hell?

Forest · Aug 29, 2007

7angel said:
Hell is a correctional jail

If that is true, it would be a bad thing since most people come out of jails, worse than when they went in.

Tavita · Aug 29, 2007

Zecryphon said:
You originally wrote: "We have to be careful not to mistake Christian Universalism for Unitarian Universalism. They are very different."

I did not say they were not christian, you assumed that's what I said.

In the same way I would say not to mistake an RCC believer for a Greek Orthodox believer. If I was Greek Orthodox I would not want to be thought of as RCC.

It is possible to take that statement to mean that Unitarians might not be Christians. That is why I asked you to explain what you meant. No need to get all uptight and defensive about it. LOL

It seems that's what you wanted to read into it. And if I got upset it was at the argumentative tone in your post. Maybe we should all be more careful in how we come across to each other using this medium.

Right, and therefore if something is not Christian, what is it? People automatically conclude it is not Christian. So if Unitarian Universalism is not Christian Universalism, what is it? It's a belief that is unique to Unitarians and not to Christians. So if it's not a belief held by Christians, it must be a belief held by non-Christians. See the line of thinking here?[/QUOTE]

The term 'Christian Universalism' is not what I chose to call it, that's just what the Church in general calls it. I prefer not to have such a tag, I don't want any tag. Unitarian Universalism happens to be what others have decided to call their denomination, or religion, or whatever. I didn't choose it. In fact, from the following quote from Wikipedia they don't necessarily see themselves as Christian...

"Unitarian Universalism (UUism) is a theologically liberal religious movement characterized by its support of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." This principle permits Unitarian Universalists a wide range of beliefs and practices. Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions such as Sunday worship that includes a sermon and singing of hymns, but do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians. Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their roots to Christian Protestantism. Many UUs appreciate and value aspects of Christian and Jewish spirituality, but the extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one's personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with UU's creedless, non-dogmatic approach to spirituality and faith development. Even before the Unitarian and Universalist movements combined their efforts at the continental level, the theological significance of Unitarianism and Universalism expanded beyond the traditional understanding of these terms.
The Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA), founded in 1961 as a consolidation of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church in America, is headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts, and serves churches in North America. The UUA represents more than 1,000 member congregations that collectively include more than 217,000 members. Unitarian Universalists follow a congregational model of church governance, in which power resides at the local level; individual congregations call ministers and make other decisions involving worship, theology and day-to-day church management. The denominational headquarters in Boston in turn provides services for congregations that can more effectively be handled through joint efforts."

Many Christian Universalists are not adherents to the above Universalist Church in America.

I don't care. I think all Universalists are heretics! LOL Plus it is not my job to provide proof for your assertion. You stated that there is a difference between the two schools of thought on Universalism, the burden of proof is upon you, not me.

Click to expand...

As I said before, Christian Universalists DO believe in the tenets of the Creeds, unlike Unitarian Universalists. 'Some' CU and other Christians don't like the idea of having to have creeds. If you don't like it then you should take it up with them. Christian Universalists can be found in all types of Christian Denominations.

From Wikipedia...

"In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans will be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels (not all CU agree to this). Universalism was a fairly commonly held view among theologians in early Christianity: In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.[1]. The two major theologians opposing it were Tertullian and Augustine.[citation needed] In later centuries, Universalism has become very much a minority position in the major branches of Christianity, though it has a long history of prominent adherents."

Depends on what the differences in belief are. There are some things that are not debatable. Other things are debatable. Repentance of sins and faith in Christ for salvation is not debatable. Infant baptism for salvation, the Lord's Supper, these things are considered debatable by most Protestant denominations. This is where a lot of division arises, along with other issues.

Click to expand...

This is true.

Why not? What's so wrong about Unitarian Universalism? As far as I'm concerned you're non-denom according to your icon, that's good enough for me. I really don't care what you are. I just deal with what you type and ask questions when things are unclear.

Click to expand...

As you can see from the above quote, the UU say themselves they are not necessarily Christian. I didn't say it.

btw... you didn't ask questions as much as you made charges at me.

A creed is a statement of belief, nothing more. The Apostle's, Nicene and Athanasian creeds are just that, statements of belief. All of them are backed up by the scriptures. To deny a creed is to deny scripturally supported statements about God. Why would any Christian do that?

Click to expand...

I agree with you. But there are Christians who call themselves Non-Nicene. Why they are Non-Nicene I don't know, that's not for me to answer.

Also, if Universalists deny the creeds of men, who came up with the idea of universalism? Isn't Universalism a teaching of men based upon their own interpretation of the scriptures? If the standard for disregarding a creed is that it was written by men, then Universalism and all other doctrines taught by men must be discarded as well, if you're going to be consistent in the application of this standard.

Click to expand...

I didn't say CU's DENY the creeds, I said most don't, some may, but they are not denying what's said in the creeds. This thread is not about the creeds of the Church. Many things have been said in regards to CU beliefs in this thread.

Anyway, I hope I've put your mind to rest in regards to the creeds and universalism, and the difference between the UU and CU. Have I given the burden of proof enough?

Peace

Zecryphon · Aug 29, 2007

"I did not say they were not christian, you assumed that's what I said."

I made no assumptions. I asked you a question about what you said, so I would not assume anything.

Quote:
It is possible to take that statement to mean that Unitarians might not be Christians. That is why I asked you to explain what you meant. No need to get all uptight and defensive about it. LOL

"It seems that's what you wanted to read into it. And if I got upset it was at the argumentative tone in your post."

Oh, please. You were in a mood and took it out on me for some unknown reason. There's nothing argumentative in the post.

"Maybe we should all be more careful in how we come across to each other using this medium."

And maybe some of us need a thicker skin.

Right, and therefore if something is not Christian, what is it? People automatically conclude it is not Christian. So if Unitarian Universalism is not Christian Universalism, what is it? It's a belief that is unique to Unitarians and not to Christians. So if it's not a belief held by Christians, it must be a belief held by non-Christians. See the line of thinking here?[/QUOTE]

"The term 'Christian Universalism' is not what I chose to call it, that's just what the Church in general calls it. I prefer not to have such a tag, I don't want any tag."

You've gotta call it something, otherwise how will people know what you're talking about?

"Unitarian Universalism happens to be what others have decided to call their denomination, or religion, or whatever. I didn't choose it. In fact, from the following quote from Wikipedia they don't necessarily see themselves as Christian..."

I'll be the first one to say that Unitarians are NOT Christians. I include them with other non-Christians such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Their beliefs do not line up with Christian doctrine and scriptures.

"Unitarian Universalism (UUism) is a theologically liberal religious movement characterized by its support of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." This principle permits Unitarian Universalists a wide range of beliefs and practices. Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions such as Sunday worship that includes a sermon and singing of hymns, but do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians. Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their roots to Christian Protestantism. Many UUs appreciate and value aspects of Christian and Jewish spirituality, but the extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one's personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with UU's creedless, non-dogmaticapproach to spirituality and faith development. Even before the Unitarian and Universalist movements combined their efforts at the continental level, the theological significance of Unitarianism and Universalism expanded beyond the traditional understanding of these terms.
The Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA), founded in 1961 as a consolidation of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church in America, is headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts, and serves churches in North America. The UUA represents more than 1,000 member congregations that collectively include more than 217,000 members. Unitarian Universalists follow a congregational model of church governance, in which power resides at the local level; individual congregations call ministers and make other decisions involving worship, theology and day-to-day church management. The denominational headquarters in Boston in turn provides services for congregations that can more effectively be handled through joint efforts."

I'd love to know where in Protestantism the idea of universalism is taught.

"Many Christian Universalists are not adherents to the above Universalist Church in America."

Yeah, they can probably be found in every congregation across the U.S. and the world.

Quote:
I don't care. I think all Universalists are heretics! LOL Plus it is not my job to provide proof for your assertion. You stated that there is a difference between the two schools of thought on Universalism, the burden of proof is upon you, not me.

"As I said before, Christian Universalists DO believe in the tenets of the Creeds, unlike Unitarian Universalists. 'Some' CU and other Christians don't like the idea of having to have creeds. If you don't like it then you should take it up with them."

I'm not upset that certain people don't like creeds. What I'm curious about is why they don't like them. All a creed is, is a statement of belief. In this case a creed is a statement of faith in Christ and what you believe about God. The big three are supported by Scripture, which every Christian says they believe. So what's the problem then? This is a general question and not one aimed directly at you.

Quote:
Why not? What's so wrong about Unitarian Universalism? As far as I'm concerned you're non-denom according to your icon, that's good enough for me. I really don't care what you are. I just deal with what you type and ask questions when things are unclear.
"As you can see from the above quote, the UU say themselves they are not necessarily Christian. I didn't say it."

I agree, they're not.

"btw... you didn't ask questions as much as you made charges at me."

Please, show me some of these charges.

"I agree with you. But there are Christians who call themselves Non-Nicene. Why they are Non-Nicene I don't know, that's not for me to answer."

I know there are, there are Mormons who call themselves Christians. But once you look into what they actually believe, you see that they just aren't. You can say you're whatever you like, but just saying something doesn't make it true.

"This thread is not about the creeds of the Church. Many things have been said in regards to CU beliefs in this thread."

That's right, this thread is about other false teachings, like the idea that you can work your way out of Hell.

"Anyway, I hope I've put your mind to rest in regards to the creeds and universalism, and the difference between the UU and CU. Have I given the burden of proof enough?"

Yep. Well done.

Tavita · Aug 29, 2007

Zecryphon said:
"I did not say they were not christian, you assumed that's what I said."

I made no assumptions. I asked you a question about what you said, so I would not assume anything.

Quote:
It is possible to take that statement to mean that Unitarians might not be Christians. That is why I asked you to explain what you meant. No need to get all uptight and defensive about it. LOL

"It seems that's what you wanted to read into it. And if I got upset it was at the argumentative tone in your post."

Oh, please. You were in a mood and took it out on me for some unknown reason. There's nothing argumentative in the post.

"Maybe we should all be more careful in how we come across to each other using this medium."

And maybe some of us need a thicker skin.

Right, and therefore if something is not Christian, what is it? People automatically conclude it is not Christian. So if Unitarian Universalism is not Christian Universalism, what is it? It's a belief that is unique to Unitarians and not to Christians. So if it's not a belief held by Christians, it must be a belief held by non-Christians. See the line of thinking here?[/QUOTE]

"The term 'Christian Universalism' is not what I chose to call it, that's just what the Church in general calls it. I prefer not to have such a tag, I don't want any tag."

You've gotta call it something, otherwise how will people know what you're talking about?

"Unitarian Universalism happens to be what others have decided to call their denomination, or religion, or whatever. I didn't choose it. In fact, from the following quote from Wikipedia they don't necessarily see themselves as Christian..."

I'll be the first one to say that Unitarians are NOT Christians. I include them with other non-Christians such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Their beliefs do not line up with Christian doctrine and scriptures.

"Unitarian Universalism (UUism) is a theologically liberal religious movement characterized by its support of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." This principle permits Unitarian Universalists a wide range of beliefs and practices. Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions such as Sunday worship that includes a sermon and singing of hymns, but do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians. Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their roots to Christian Protestantism. Many UUs appreciate and value aspects of Christian and Jewish spirituality, but the extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one's personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with UU's creedless, non-dogmaticapproach to spirituality and faith development. Even before the Unitarian and Universalist movements combined their efforts at the continental level, the theological significance of Unitarianism and Universalism expanded beyond the traditional understanding of these terms.
The Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA), founded in 1961 as a consolidation of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church in America, is headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts, and serves churches in North America. The UUA represents more than 1,000 member congregations that collectively include more than 217,000 members. Unitarian Universalists follow a congregational model of church governance, in which power resides at the local level; individual congregations call ministers and make other decisions involving worship, theology and day-to-day church management. The denominational headquarters in Boston in turn provides services for congregations that can more effectively be handled through joint efforts."

I'd love to know where in Protestantism the idea of universalism is taught.

"Many Christian Universalists are not adherents to the above Universalist Church in America."

Yeah, they can probably be found in every congregation across the U.S. and the world.

Quote:
I don't care. I think all Universalists are heretics! LOL Plus it is not my job to provide proof for your assertion. You stated that there is a difference between the two schools of thought on Universalism, the burden of proof is upon you, not me.

"As I said before, Christian Universalists DO believe in the tenets of the Creeds, unlike Unitarian Universalists. 'Some' CU and other Christians don't like the idea of having to have creeds. If you don't like it then you should take it up with them."

I'm not upset that certain people don't like creeds. What I'm curious about is why they don't like them. All a creed is, is a statement of belief. In this case a creed is a statement of faith in Christ and what you believe about God. The big three are supported by Scripture, which every Christian says they believe. So what's the problem then? This is a general question and not one aimed directly at you.

Quote:
Why not? What's so wrong about Unitarian Universalism? As far as I'm concerned you're non-denom according to your icon, that's good enough for me. I really don't care what you are. I just deal with what you type and ask questions when things are unclear.
"As you can see from the above quote, the UU say themselves they are not necessarily Christian. I didn't say it."

I agree, they're not.

"btw... you didn't ask questions as much as you made charges at me."

Please, show me some of these charges.

"I agree with you. But there are Christians who call themselves Non-Nicene. Why they are Non-Nicene I don't know, that's not for me to answer."

I know there are, there are Mormons who call themselves Christians. But once you look into what they actually believe, you see that they just aren't. You can say you're whatever you like, but just saying something doesn't make it true.

"This thread is not about the creeds of the Church. Many things have been said in regards to CU beliefs in this thread."

That's right, this thread is about other false teachings, like the idea that you can work your way out of Hell.

"Anyway, I hope I've put your mind to rest in regards to the creeds and universalism, and the difference between the UU and CU. Have I given the burden of proof enough?"

Yep. Well done.

Click to expand...

I'll let you have the last word... I'm done.

Ben12 · Aug 30, 2007

LJSGM said:
There is also a way to over spiritualize everything, just as there is a way to over literalize everything as well.

I guess you are right; God being a Spirit and all let us literalize everything in scripture. HoW about 25% literal and 75% spiritual. Gods Word is spirit not literal; that is why there is confusion.

james415 · Aug 30, 2007

Ben12 said:
I guess you are right; God being a Spirit and all let us literalize everything in scripture. HoW about 25% literal and 75% spiritual. Gods Word is spirit not literal; that is why there is confusion.

And I might add:

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Spiritofprophecy · Aug 30, 2007

james415 said:
And I might add:

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

greetings in the name of Jesus:

Amen.

I have enjoyed this thread, And commend all those posters for their spirit, and desire for Gods truth.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless Christians in forum, and all who use it.

Ben12 · Aug 30, 2007

james415 said:
And I might add:

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Amen

Netbug009 · Aug 31, 2007

zeke37 said:
The true hell is the Lake of Fire.

The souls who do not overcome will be thrown in that Lake of Fire.

no one has gone in yet, and will not until after the Millennium at the Judgement of God.

Those who deservedly get thrown in the Lake of Fire shall be completely destroyed...soul and all.

it is called the second death....the death of the soul.

Forever is a long time and God is finding out who loves Him for real and who does not...through absolute free will of those souls....all who do not overcome, are destroyed forever.

No one gets out, and even the Lake of Fire itself is destroyed.

in His service
c

Random question on that. Where do humans who don't go to heaven hang in the meantime untill the day if judgement?

Nadiine · Aug 31, 2007

Zecryphon said:
"I did not say they were not christian, you assumed that's what I said."

I made no assumptions. I asked you a question about what you said, so I would not assume anything.

Quote:
It is possible to take that statement to mean that Unitarians might not be Christians. That is why I asked you to explain what you meant. No need to get all uptight and defensive about it. LOL

"It seems that's what you wanted to read into it. And if I got upset it was at the argumentative tone in your post."

Oh, please. You were in a mood and took it out on me for some unknown reason. There's nothing argumentative in the post.

"Maybe we should all be more careful in how we come across to each other using this medium."

And maybe some of us need a thicker skin.

Right, and therefore if something is not Christian, what is it? People automatically conclude it is not Christian. So if Unitarian Universalism is not Christian Universalism, what is it? It's a belief that is unique to Unitarians and not to Christians. So if it's not a belief held by Christians, it must be a belief held by non-Christians. See the line of thinking here?[/QUOTE]

"The term 'Christian Universalism' is not what I chose to call it, that's just what the Church in general calls it. I prefer not to have such a tag, I don't want any tag."

You've gotta call it something, otherwise how will people know what you're talking about?

"Unitarian Universalism happens to be what others have decided to call their denomination, or religion, or whatever. I didn't choose it. In fact, from the following quote from Wikipedia they don't necessarily see themselves as Christian..."

I'll be the first one to say that Unitarians are NOT Christians. I include them with other non-Christians such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Their beliefs do not line up with Christian doctrine and scriptures.

"Unitarian Universalism (UUism) is a theologically liberal religious movement characterized by its support of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." This principle permits Unitarian Universalists a wide range of beliefs and practices. Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions such as Sunday worship that includes a sermon and singing of hymns, but do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians. Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their roots to Christian Protestantism. Many UUs appreciate and value aspects of Christian and Jewish spirituality, but the extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one's personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with UU's creedless, non-dogmaticapproach to spirituality and faith development. Even before the Unitarian and Universalist movements combined their efforts at the continental level, the theological significance of Unitarianism and Universalism expanded beyond the traditional understanding of these terms.
The Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA), founded in 1961 as a consolidation of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church in America, is headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts, and serves churches in North America. The UUA represents more than 1,000 member congregations that collectively include more than 217,000 members. Unitarian Universalists follow a congregational model of church governance, in which power resides at the local level; individual congregations call ministers and make other decisions involving worship, theology and day-to-day church management. The denominational headquarters in Boston in turn provides services for congregations that can more effectively be handled through joint efforts."

I'd love to know where in Protestantism the idea of universalism is taught.

"Many Christian Universalists are not adherents to the above Universalist Church in America."

Yeah, they can probably be found in every congregation across the U.S. and the world.

Quote:
I don't care. I think all Universalists are heretics! LOL Plus it is not my job to provide proof for your assertion. You stated that there is a difference between the two schools of thought on Universalism, the burden of proof is upon you, not me.

"As I said before, Christian Universalists DO believe in the tenets of the Creeds, unlike Unitarian Universalists. 'Some' CU and other Christians don't like the idea of having to have creeds. If you don't like it then you should take it up with them."

I'm not upset that certain people don't like creeds. What I'm curious about is why they don't like them. All a creed is, is a statement of belief. In this case a creed is a statement of faith in Christ and what you believe about God. The big three are supported by Scripture, which every Christian says they believe. So what's the problem then? This is a general question and not one aimed directly at you.

Quote:
Why not? What's so wrong about Unitarian Universalism? As far as I'm concerned you're non-denom according to your icon, that's good enough for me. I really don't care what you are. I just deal with what you type and ask questions when things are unclear.
"As you can see from the above quote, the UU say themselves they are not necessarily Christian. I didn't say it."

I agree, they're not.

"btw... you didn't ask questions as much as you made charges at me."

Please, show me some of these charges.

"I agree with you. But there are Christians who call themselves Non-Nicene. Why they are Non-Nicene I don't know, that's not for me to answer."

I know there are, there are Mormons who call themselves Christians. But once you look into what they actually believe, you see that they just aren't. You can say you're whatever you like, but just saying something doesn't make it true.

"This thread is not about the creeds of the Church. Many things have been said in regards to CU beliefs in this thread."

That's right, this thread is about other false teachings, like the idea that you can work your way out of Hell.

"Anyway, I hope I've put your mind to rest in regards to the creeds and universalism, and the difference between the UU and CU. Have I given the burden of proof enough?"

Yep. Well done.

Click to expand...

The reason I accept your statements on Universalists, is becuz their message REFUTES JESUS' CLEAR STATEMENT: "Truly, Truly I say unto you, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

For all who are told "don't worry, God loves you and is full of mercy - you'll be in Heaven with eternal life no matter WHAT you do or how you live" it's defeating the whole point of accepting God's gift of salvation over your sins. - just grab it later folks! Do what you want. There's absolutely no incentive for a lost soul to WANT to turn from their sin if they get heaven anyways no matter what they do or reject.

It's a contradictory belief that runs against the whole of scripture to make a choice while alive today - under God's grace and mercy that is available RIGHT NOW to each person.
That's why I find it heretical at it's core - giving complacency to the lost that there's no URGENCY or even direct NEED to repent & accept Christ.

Lastly, I'll say again, many if not most of those who teach THIS universal message, also have other important doctrines messed up elsewhere along the line.

Hell is a correctional jail

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