Hell is a correctional jail

[Ben12]

On the surface death seems so negative; but in the hands of an all knowing and loving God even death has a victory. It is a fact the more new walk by His anointing the weaker our flesh will become and we will subdue us as well as every form of resistance of the carnal nature until it is His life alone that is made manifest. Nothing like the glorious anointing of the Holy Spirit to make us weak - weak yet very strong for there is power released of which few know anything about because they have refused to accept the sphere of weakness where in He is made strong.

The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death" -- end quote.

Death is used to die out to which caused us to be entangled. After that the death process, after that comes salvation with its more abundant life. Thought death there is much that is destroyed-made non effect. It brings an end to so many things. All the old life, the carnality, the self life, the will the imaginations, the intents; but destroyed by the cross. However God does not desire fellowship with a corpse, so needs to follow a resurrection to much more divine living.

Above all, the weakness is an attitude of the heart, weather it has any outward forms expressed or not, it really does not matter when we know in ourselves that we are nothing so we lean heavily on Him. Drawing from Him that strength which is equal to the need, and that grace which is truly sufficient for all things. How precious does the Spirit help our weakness, as we rise to walk in that new creative life.

Romans 8: 19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [9] frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(4)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(5)
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?


Second Death: Lake of Fire=
Romans 8

(Concordant Translation)
Rev 2:11 "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias (Church or called out). "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
(KJV)
Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death


(Concordant Translation)
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.


Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 2 In context: Revelation 2:10-12)
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 20 In context: Revelation 20:5-7)
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 20 In context: Revelation 20:13-15)
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Ben12]

"I did not say they were not christian, you assumed that's what I said."

I made no assumptions. I asked you a question about what you said, so I would not assume anything.

Quote:
It is possible to take that statement to mean that Unitarians might not be Christians. That is why I asked you to explain what you meant. No need to get all uptight and defensive about it. LOL

"It seems that's what you wanted to read into it. And if I got upset it was at the argumentative tone in your post."

Oh, please. You were in a mood and took it out on me for some unknown reason. There's nothing argumentative in the post.

"Maybe we should all be more careful in how we come across to each other using this medium."

And maybe some of us need a thicker skin.



The reason I accept your statements on Universalists, is becuz their message REFUTES JESUS' CLEAR STATEMENT: "Truly, Truly I say unto you, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

For all who are told "don't worry, God loves you and is full of mercy - you'll be in Heaven with eternal life no matter WHAT you do or how you live" it's defeating the whole point of accepting God's gift of salvation over your sins. - just grab it later folks! Do what you want. There's absolutely no incentive for a lost soul to WANT to turn from their sin if they get heaven anyways no matter what they do or reject.

It's a contradictory belief that runs against the whole of scripture to make a choice while alive today - under God's grace and mercy that is available RIGHT NOW to each person.
That's why I find it heretical at it's core - giving complacency to the lost that there's no URGENCY or even direct NEED to repent & accept Christ.

Lastly, I'll say again, many if not most of those who teach THIS universal message, also have other important doctrines messed up elsewhere along the line.

Your view is different then ours; you wrap your whole understanding (which is totally negative) around John 3:16 and see and understand there is so much more. We believe there will be a price paid for the sin in the Lake of Fire; "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."; But not forever.

You cannot accept the gift of salvation unless God draws you; there is no choice on man’s part; it is God who chooses. I think there are many things of God messed by the 22,000 daughters of Baby lon. It is not by religion; but by His Spirit.

 

[james415]

the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality.

The second death is something I never fully understood before but think I do now. Are you saying that the second death is the death of death itself; the death of inequity and mortality?

 

[Ben12]

The second death is something I never fully understood before but think I do now. Are you saying that the second death is the death of death itself; the death of inequity and mortality?

Amen; look at Revelations and approach not as a literal book but a spiritual book (a book of symbolisms) ; a book of what and why God is doing. The Bible is so full of spiritual patterns and one of these patterns I can’t help but ignore is God’s seconds are always more glorious then His first. First Adam-Second Adam; First Covenant; Second covenant-First Resurrection-Second Resurrection; law-grace. All thought the OT the pattern was the second son God the blessing; never the first. Do we believe what man and His tradition shows us; or are we open to the revelation of Jesus Christ; or unveiling of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 1:1​

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

 

[Tavita]

The reason I accept your statements on Universalists, is becuz their message REFUTES JESUS' CLEAR STATEMENT: "Truly, Truly I say unto you, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

And so everyone will be born again. Can you show us in scripture where it says 'only in this lifetime'? Can you show using scripture where God's mercy finishes after the point of death in a person's life?

Can you explain why in the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and only one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.?

Can you not see it was Rome that brought in the doctrine of endless punishment.. producing fear so they could control in the uneducated masses? Which also brought in the Dark Ages.

For all who are told "don't worry, God loves you and is full of mercy - you'll be in Heaven with eternal life no matter WHAT you do or how you live" it's defeating the whole point of accepting God's gift of salvation over your sins. - just grab it later folks! Do what you want. There's absolutely no incentive for a lost soul to WANT to turn from their sin if they get heaven anyways no matter what they do or reject.

To believe we can bring people to the Lord out of the fear of hell and damnation goes against the whole of scripture. Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? And what is repentance but a knowing one has broken the law of God and then a turning away from sin. He draws them with His love, not with hell and damnation.. which is a teaching straight from the accuser of the brethren.

If you truly love the Lord, Nadine, why would you want to sin against Him? If you truly love Him then it doesn't matter if there is no hell at all, you will WANT to obey Him because you LOVE Him.

And it's no use saying 'that's alright to say about people who already know Him, but what about the unsaved?', I would say it's Holy Spirit working in their hearts and applying the Law (like a tutor) to bring them to Christ... to reveal to them their sin, their not living up to His standard, which then allows the spirit of repentance to flow. It's not about hell. Did Jesus ever threaten the multitudes with hell and damnation? Did Peter, Paul?

It's a contradictory belief that runs against the whole of scripture to make a choice while alive today - under God's grace and mercy that is available RIGHT NOW to each person.
That's why I find it heretical at it's core - giving complacency to the lost that there's no URGENCY or even direct NEED to repent & accept Christ.

You think it's heretical because the church has indoctrinated you to believe it is. I believed those lies for many many years. You need to check it out for yourself with an open mind, and you will be amazed when you do at how much rubbish you've been taught.

It's by the Love of God and the application of the Law that brings repentance. Sin is breaking the law, and the wages of sin is Death.. not eternal punishment.

Lastly, I'll say again, many if not most of those who teach THIS universal message, also have other important doctrines messed up elsewhere along the line.

If so then most of the early church had messed up doctrines too.

*Did you know that a couple of your Presidents were universalists?

 

[Ben12]

"And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him." — Eph. 1:9,10. (Weymouth).
Long before there was a world or any man, God, almighty and all wise, planned every detail of the whole creation from start to finish. He not only planned each detail of the earth itself but with infinite wisdom He planned your life and mine before the foundations of the earth were laid. 2 Tim. 1:9. He planned the moment and place of your birth, the circumstances that were to prevail throughout your life, your down-sittings and up-risings, the trials and tribulations, the joys and sorrows that were to have their part in shaping you according to His purpose. He knows the appointed times and how many ages He will spend to bring you to the perfection He planned for you before the world began. I am perfectly aware that this is NOT church tradition. This is not what we were taught from our youth nor is this commonly accepted doctrine, but I affirm that this is truth according to the Word of God, and it is also according to the true longing of your own spirit within you.
Did not Paul teach us that we were chosen in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD when he said to Timothy, "Be thou partaker of the AFFLICTIONS OF THE GOSPEL according to the power of God, who hath saved, us and called us with an holy calling, not according to OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." 2 Tim. 1:8, 9. (WYC) And then again, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ according as He bath
CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.... Eph. 1:3, 4. 4 as he hath chosen us in himself before the making of the world, that we were holy [as he chose us in him before the making of the world, that we should be holy], and without wem in his sight, in charity.

 

[Tavita]

Thank you for your post, #201, Ben12.

You've helped me to understand the second death more clearly too.

 

[Tavita]

2 Tim. 1:8, 9. (WYC) And then again, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ according as He bath CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.... Eph. 1:3, 4. 4 as he hath chosen us in himself before the making of the world, that we were holy [as he chose us in him before the making of the world, that we should be holy], and without wem in his sight, in charity.

We have also been chosen as the firstfruits of the promised harvest.

Makes you feel kinda humble, doesn't it. That we have been chosen in this age and given a purpose in helping to bring in the rest of the harvest, as priests who will rule and reign with Him. We have no reason to feel we are better than the rest of mankind because we are chosen, knowing that they (and us) will all bend the knee and declare that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. They will bend the knee and worship Him with a heart of love, because no-one can say Jesus is Lord unless they have Holy Spirit within.

 

[james415]

"Long before there was a world or any man, God, almighty and all wise, planned every detail of the whole creation from start to finish. He not only planned each detail of the earth itself but with infinite wisdom He planned your life and mine before the foundations of the earth were laid. 2 Tim. 1:9. He planned the moment and place of your birth, the circumstances that were to prevail throughout your life, your down-sittings and up-risings, the trials and tribulations, the joys and sorrows that were to have their part in shaping you according to His purpose. He knows the appointed times and how many ages He will spend to bring you to the perfection He planned for you before the world began.

This entire plan was encapsulated and given birth like one Command. This Plan is Christ, The Word, and The Holy Seed from which all creation sprang forth like the braches of His Tree or the Parts of His body. This Plan is the Law of the Spirit that we must obey. And we obey it not by effort but by faith.

 

[james415]

This entire plan was encapsulated and given birth like one Command. This Plan is Christ, The Word, and The Holy Seed from which all creation sprang forth like the braches of His Tree or the Parts of His body. This Plan is the Law of the Spirit that we must obey. And we obey it not by effort but by faith.

Then God rested from all of His work. And you to can enter that rest, not by effort but by faith.

 

[Tavita]

This entire plan was encapsulated and given birth like one Command. This Plan is Christ, The Word, and The Holy Seed from which all creation sprang forth like the braches of His Tree or the Parts of His body. This Plan is the Law of the Spirit that we must obey. And we obey it not by effort but by faith.

Yes!

Bella Vista!

 

[SoundCard]

The idea of Hell or the lake of fire not being permanent just doesn't...click in my mind I suppose. I'm not saying it's not a comforting idea, that all who would go would eventually be let out, it's just I see a clash with other scripture on the idea. It's said those without faith in Christ will not have eternal life. Yet I see lots of talk of all going to God in the end. Is that to say, God can't do it? Not in the least. God is certainly allpowerful, limitless, etc. But I think it severely underminds the sacrifice Christ made for us. If hell were a cleansing fire, why would there be such a focus on placing faith in Christ, and such? If it weren't a necessity for salvation or to be cleansed of sin, then what would the point be of it? Why so much emphasis on atonement for sins if they would just be washed away by fire? It makes Christ's death on the cross for us incredibly short sighted and frankly, pointless, if there were any other pathways out of sin or it's punishment. Which is why it's so important that people hear God's word, hear of Christ, so that they can escape the lake of fire. Some say that God is loving and wouldn't do that to his children. You're right, he wouldn't. But the clincher is, without Christ, we aren't taken in as grafts to the olive branch. We aren't children of God if we have no faith in Him.

Revelation 20:15 NIV

15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now, if all come to God, then what of those whose names aren't present? They are sent out away from God for their sins and failure to repent. God detests sin, and only through his Holy Son is forgiveness found. That being the case, I'm sure someone will come around and tell me I'm wrong, I remain unconvinced that Hell is correctional, as it just seems not just unscriptural, but illogical when weighed with the grace we are shown in Christ. If hell were REALLY correctional, atonement through Christ would not be the only way.

John 14:6 NIV

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

[Ben12]

The eternalhellist believe a God who cannot; all they want is to burn up sinners forever and ever; while they play harps in glory land. They not open to the fact of The Tabernacle of David Sion/Zion or The Melchisedec Priesthood in other words.

Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.

 

[Zecryphon]

Your view is different then ours; you wrap your whole understanding (which is totally negative) around John 3:16 and see and understand there is so much more. We believe there will be a price paid for the sin in the Lake of Fire; "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."; But not forever.

You cannot accept the gift of salvation unless God draws you; there is no choice on man’s part; it is God who chooses. I think there are many things of God messed by the 22,000 daughters of Baby lon. It is not by religion; but by His Spirit.

"Your view is different then ours;"

Yeah it is.

"you wrap your whole understanding (which is totally negative) around John 3:16 and see and understand there is so much more."

You have no idea what I base my view upon, so instead of making up false claims about me, why don't you act like an adult and ask me directly what I think? Jesus said in Luke 13:1-5 what people must do to be saved. Repent of your sins! He also said we must call upon His name to be saved. Repentance and faith, not works. Universalism teaches that you earn your way out of your punishment. That is total heresy and contradictory to what Christ Himself said! We are not saved by works... Ephesians 2:8-9. What about that don't you get? You're not saved by works here in this life or in the life to come.

""We believe there will be a price paid for the sin in the Lake of Fire;"

The price of your sin was paid at the cross, call upon the name of Jesus and repent and God will forgive you. Salvation is conditional, not universal.

""But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."; But not forever."

Where in scripture does it say that it is not forever? Or are you just reading that into the text because that makes you feel better? You can certainly lie to yourself if it makes you feel better. But God is all about the absolutes. Absolute salvation or absolute destruction.

"You cannot accept the gift of salvation unless God draws you; there is no choice on man’s part; it is God who chooses."

So God must have chosen some people to inhabit the lake of fire then too. Why would a God of love do this?

"I think there are many things of God messed by the 22,000 daughters of Baby lon. It is not by religion; but by His Spirit."

Messed? 22,000 daughters of Babylon? Could you at least provide some scripture for this so I have some clue what you're talking about?

 

[Ben12]

The idea of Hell or the lake of fire not being permanent just doesn't...click in my mind I suppose. I'm not saying it's not a comforting idea, that all who would go would eventually be let out, it's just I see a clash with other scripture on the idea. It's said those without faith in Christ will not have eternal life. Yet I see lots of talk of all going to God in the end. Is that to say, God can't do it? Not in the least. God is certainly allpowerful, limitless, etc. But I think it severely underminds the sacrifice Christ made for us. If hell were a cleansing fire, why would there be such a focus on placing faith in Christ, and such? If it weren't a necessity for salvation or to be cleansed of sin, then what would the point be of it? Why so much emphasis on atonement for sins if they would just be washed away by fire? It makes Christ's death on the cross for us incredibly short sighted and frankly, pointless, if there were any other pathways out of sin or it's punishment. Which is why it's so important that people hear God's word, hear of Christ, so that they can escape the lake of fire. Some say that God is loving and wouldn't do that to his children. You're right, he wouldn't. But the clincher is, without Christ, we aren't taken in as grafts to the olive branch. We aren't children of God if we have no faith in Him.

Revelation 20:15 NIV

15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now, if all come to God, then what of those whose names aren't present? They are sent out away from God for their sins and failure to repent. God detests sin, and only through his Holy Son is forgiveness found. That being the case, I'm sure someone will come around and tell me I'm wrong, I remain unconvinced that Hell is correctional, as it just seems not just unscriptural, but illogical when weighed with the grace we are shown in Christ. If hell were REALLY correctional, atonement through Christ would not be the only way.

John 14:6 NIV

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

What is greater the blood of Jesus or the sin of Adam. God is not calling all people now only His firstfruit; God’s Word is speaking to us not the lost right now. The lost are dead in trespasses and sin and cannot hear see, touch spiritual realities even shallow basic stuff; can you speak to a dead man and expect him to hear?. That is why as I mentioned above about the Tabernacle of David will restore the remainder of mankind. It is God’s timing not Baby lon.

 

[Ben12]

"Your view is different then ours;"

Yeah it is.

"you wrap your whole understanding (which is totally negative) around John 3:16 and see and understand there is so much more."

You have no idea what I base my view upon, so instead of making up false claims about me, why don't you act like an adult and ask me directly what I think? Jesus said in Luke 13:1-5 what people must do to be saved. Repent of your sins! He also said we must call upon His name to be saved. Repentance and faith, not works. Universalism teaches that you earn your way out of your punishment. That is total heresy and contradictory to what Christ Himself said! We are not saved by works... Ephesians 2:8-9. What about that don't you get? You're not saved by works here in this life or in the life to come.

""We believe there will be a price paid for the sin in the Lake of Fire;"

The price of your sin was paid at the cross, call upon the name of Jesus and repent and God will forgive you. Salvation is conditional, not universal.

""But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."; But not forever."

Where in scripture does it say that it is not forever? Or are you just reading that into the text because that makes you feel better? You can certainly lie to yourself if it makes you feel better. But God is all about the absolutes. Absolute salvation or absolute destruction.

"You cannot accept the gift of salvation unless God draws you; there is no choice on man’s part; it is God who chooses."

So God must have chosen some people to inhabit the lake of fire then too. Why would a God of love do this?

"I think there are many things of God messed by the 22,000 daughters of Baby lon. It is not by religion; but by His Spirit."

Messed? 22,000 daughters of Babylon? Could you at least provide some scripture for this so I have some clue what you're talking about?

I guess you have not been following this tread; all you have asked has been covered already; BUT i will have to get back to you later because of obligations. God bless.

 

[SoundCard]

I've said all I've wished to say, and the way the circles keep turning, it seems they will continue to do so. So with my last bit, I'm stepping out of the discussion. No one's minds are going to be changed here apparently. God bless.

 

[Zecryphon]

I guess you have not been following this tread; all you have asked has been covered already; BUT i will have to get back to you later because of obligations. God bless.

Not from page one. I read here and there, but threads like this bore me, because I've been through threads like this before on this forum and others. It's always the same story, everyone is already convinced of what is true and no one ever really changes their mind on the issue. In the end people agree to disagree and go their merry little way. That will happen here too.

 

[PeacaHeaven]

Not from page one. I read here and there, but threads like this bore me, because I've been through threads like this before on this forum and others. It's always the same story, everyone is already convinced of what is true and no one ever really changes their mind on the issue. In the end people agree to disagree and go their merry little way. That will happen here too.

Unfortunately you're probably right. I read alot of posts in this thread and the verses that were given were overwhelming to support an eternal condemnation. Whether people believe God kills the soul so that its dead or whether people keep existing in the lake of fire.

I just can't accept the other opinions that contradict all those verses.

 

[Shiversblood]

Hell seems to contradict love. Torture by omission. Being born seems like its a crime. And the only way to ease the pressure of that crime is Christ. That rule right there destroys more than half of all mankind in a instant.

Why would God want so many humans to be created, if only so few were destined to heaven. God can see the future. The numbers must be crazy.

How many people on this earth are Christian? Oh wait let me say that a different way. How many people on this earth are REAL Christians. And this is suppose to be good in Go'ds eyes when God stops and thinks about it?
Why couldn't God just let them go? Why must somebody always be tortured.