Hell is a correctional jail

[Zecryphon]

Hell seems to contradict love. Torture by omission. Being born seems like its a crime. And the only way to ease the pressure of that crime is Christ. That rule right there destroys more than half of all mankind in a instant.

Why would God want so many humans to be created, if only so few were destined to heaven. God can see the future. The numbers must be crazy.

How many people on this earth are Christian? Oh wait let me say that a different way. How many people on this earth are REAL Christians. And this is suppose to be good in Go'ds eyes when God stops and thinks about it?
Why couldn't God just let them go? Why must somebody always be tortured.

"Why couldn't God just let them go? Why must somebody always be tortured."

How is the law satisfied if the crimminal is let go? The law demands payment. Jesus paid the price of the law at the cross for those who will repent their sins and call upon His name to be saved. Either you pay the penalty for violating God's law or Christ does. If a crimminal stands before a judge in this country and says "judge I'm sorry for what I've done, I won't do it again," what should the judge do? Should he just let the crimminal go because the crimminal is sorry? No. The crimminal should be sorry, he's broken the law. If the judge just lets him or her go that's not justice and that's not upholding the law.

The law demands punishment when it's violated. When we sin, we break God's law. If we are not born again, if we have not called upon the name of Christ to be saved, to have Him be our savior, then we are saying we don't want God's solution to our sin problem and want to pay the fine the law demands ourselves. So God gives us punishment for our crimes by sending us to Hell. It's totally reasonable and just.

 

[Shiversblood]

Eternity in torture is worse than punishment that needs to be paid. Being sentenced to prison is not like going to hell at all. You will either be released from prison eventually or die there. But in hell niether is allowed, and While the torture is taking place. You say God doesn't want to let people off scott free so he jumps all the way across the polar opposite side.

Anyways I have a question, when you look at it this way how can God be just, when God gives man infinite torture for finite crimes.?

 

[Tavita]

Eternity in torture is worse than punishment that needs to be paid. Being sentenced to prison is not like going to hell at all. You will either be released from prison eventually or die there. But in hell niether is allowed, and While the torture is taking place. You say God doesn't want to let people off scott free so he jumps all the way across the polar opposite side.

Anyways I have a question, when you look at it this way how can God be just, when God gives man infinite torture for finite crimes.?

Good questions, Shiversblood!

 

[james415]

Eternity in torture is worse than punishment that needs to be paid. Being sentenced to prison is not like going to hell at all. You will either be released from prison eventually or die there. But in hell niether is allowed, and While the torture is taking place. You say God doesn't want to let people off scott free so he jumps all the way across the polar opposite side.

Anyways I have a question, when you look at it this way how can God be just, when God gives man infinite torture for finite crimes.?

What happens if the restaurant chef fried our eggs in bacon grease without us knowing it? Does he burn in hell for eternity or do we?

 

[Nadiine]

Eternity in torture is worse than punishment that needs to be paid. Being sentenced to prison is not like going to hell at all. You will either be released from prison eventually or die there. But in hell niether is allowed, and While the torture is taking place. You say God doesn't want to let people off scott free so he jumps all the way across the polar opposite side.

Anyways I have a question, when you look at it this way how can God be just, when God gives man infinite torture for finite crimes.?

Becuz all souls are ETERNAL (made in God's own image), and heaven is eternal. Each place is eternal and that is where you continue to STAY.

Sin & death dont' just "END" on their own or get done away with. They get put away and CONTAINED so that they can no longer continue to corrupt what is pure and good that God has restored for those who chose eternal life.

You have to understand what sin, death and evil ARE, and that they don't just stop - the judgment for them is to be put away eternally so they can no longer contaminate and corrupt any longer.

That's why God never lets it back out - Satan, all his demonic host and those who chose to reject God and live in their sins will all be contained so that all that's restored and purified stays that way.
Eternally.

 

[LJSGM]

"Why couldn't God just let them go? Why must somebody always be tortured."

How is the law satisfied if the crimminal is let go? The law demands payment. Jesus paid the price of the law at the cross for those who will repent their sins and call upon His name to be saved. Either you pay the penalty for violating God's law or Christ does. If a crimminal stands before a judge in this country and says "judge I'm sorry for what I've done, I won't do it again," what should the judge do? Should he just let the crimminal go because the crimminal is sorry? No. The crimminal should be sorry, he's broken the law. If the judge just lets him or her go that's not justice and that's not upholding the law.

The law demands punishment when it's violated. When we sin, we break God's law. If we are not born again, if we have not called upon the name of Christ to be saved, to have Him be our savior, then we are saying we don't want God's solution to our sin problem and want to pay the fine the law demands ourselves. So God gives us punishment for our crimes by sending us to Hell. It's totally reasonable and just.

Yes, but God says what the wages of sin are...

Romans 6

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm not sure where the idea that the wages of sin is torture came from.

I'll be on tomorrow to post lots of responses, so beware!

And just for those that might use that verse out of context, here is the previous verse.

22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, but God says what the wages of sin are...

Romans 6

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm not sure where the idea that the wages of sin is torture came from.

I'll be on tomorrow to post lots of responses, so beware!

And just for those that might use that verse out of context, here is the previous verse.

22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Here's some links to arguments against Annihilationism - and I agree with the points made:
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3610.html

http://the-highway.com/annihilationism_Packer.html

I'd also add that being "destroyed" doesn't constitute "non existance".
You can destroy an old car at a wrecking yard, and that car still "exists" in a different form; the material itself continues to exist. To be destroyed doesn't have to mean that a soul doesn't exist any longer.

There was also a burning bush in Genesis - a bush that was in flames of fire, yet not ultimately consumed by that fire. I believe that is another example of how flames can be present yet not all consuming to burn something to ashes.

God can create a fire that doesn't consume and that DOES consume - He's God.

 

[LJSGM]

Here's some links to arguments against Annihilationism - and I agree with the points made:
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3610.html

http://the-highway.com/annihilationism_Packer.html

I'd also add that being "destroyed" doesn't constitute "non existance".
You can destroy an old car at a wrecking yard, and that car still "exists" in a different form; the material itself continues to exist. To be destroyed doesn't have to mean that a soul doesn't exist any longer.

There was also a burning bush in Genesis - a bush that was in flames of fire, yet not ultimately consumed by that fire. I believe that is another example of how flames can be present yet not all consuming to burn something to ashes.

God can create a fire that doesn't consume and that DOES consume - He's God.

I've always wondered where the notion that humans were eternal came from, what verses, ect, because humans have a beginning, and can have an end as well. It's not enough to take it from "we are made in God's image," because that could mean whole lot of things, and not nessesarily that attribute of God. If we didn't have a beginning, then we would be like Gods I suppose. But what can have a beginning can also have an end. It's his eternal life (Holy Spirit) that keeps us alive. Without it, we would be dead.

Anyways, I'll read those links that you've gave, thanks for those.

 

[Zecryphon]

Eternity in torture is worse than punishment that needs to be paid. Being sentenced to prison is not like going to hell at all. You will either be released from prison eventually or die there. But in hell niether is allowed, and While the torture is taking place. You say God doesn't want to let people off scott free so he jumps all the way across the polar opposite side.

Anyways I have a question, when you look at it this way how can God be just, when God gives man infinite torture for finite crimes.?

You're looking at this from a human perspective. Look at it now, from God's perspective. How repugnant and vile must one sin be to God, for Him to induce this kind of punishment?

 

[Zecryphon]

Yes, but God says what the wages of sin are...

Romans 6

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm not sure where the idea that the wages of sin is torture came from.

I'll be on tomorrow to post lots of responses, so beware!

And just for those that might use that verse out of context, here is the previous verse.

22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Yes, the wages of sin is death. But what does death mean? Do we now bring a human understanding of death to this verse, where we are simply separated from God and not resurrected to life? Or do we consider that death may mean being thrown into the lake of fire with the murderers, liars, adulterers and others who are said to go there with the devil and his angels. Also, remember that Hell is not eternal. The Bible does say that it too will be consumed in the lake of fire and destroyed on the last day.

 

[LJSGM]

Yes, the wages of sin is death. But what does death mean? Do we now bring a human understanding of death to this verse, where we are simply separated from God and not resurrected to life? Or do we consider that death may mean being thrown into the lake of fire with the murderers, liars, adulterers and others who are said to go there with the devil and his angels. Also, remember that Hell is not eternal. The Bible does say that it too will be consumed in the lake of fire and destroyed on the last day.

There are two places you should consider, both hades and gehenna. They are not interchangable, as revelations proves by saying that both death and HADES will be thrown into the lake of fire. Also, Jesus uses both words at different times, they are two DIFFERENT places, and when taking this into account, we can better interpret what Jesus was talking about and what scriptures mean.

Some people believe that the gehenna fire was within hades, making it hot and smelling of brimestone

I'm not sure what you mean by "what is death?" Who has a better definition then non-existance? What is LIFE but existance? What is destruction but the opposite of creation? To create and to destroy are opposites. I don't think my interpretation is far-fetched. I think eternal suffering is much harder to prove in fact and much more far fetched.

 

[LJSGM]

We have to be careful not to mistake Christian Universalism for Unitarian Universalism. They are very different. Christian Universalists believe in the tenets of the Nicene Creed, even though some Universalists may say they don't believe in having creeds of men.

We are all different, and believe different things about Universalism and many are a part of various denominations within Christiandom. It is about the only doctrinal belief Universalists have that is different to most Christians, but branded as heresy. It is only a doctrinal difference and we are called more than anything else to love and honor one another.

I know what unitarian universalism is, and they give no Special thought to the religion of Christianity, but I wasn't speaking of my encounter with a unitarian, but of a christian universalist. It was in fact an example of how people can over-spiritualize the scriptures. They have taken a literal meaning (that Jesus came in the flesh) and spiritualized it to say that he didnt' LITERALLY come in the flesh, but only spiritually. Now if you admit that Jesus literally came in the flesh, then you believe that the bible possesses both literal and spiritual meanings, and that we have to discern what the true meaning of various verses are. You can over-spiritualize the scriptures, just like you can over-literalize them.

 

[LJSGM]

Why must the chances to go to heaven end when someone dies. Why not have the correctional hell jail. Some people live longer then others anyways. Such as two 21 year olds both criminals one dies goes to hell the other lives untill he is 70 and has changed his life and goes to heaven. If this is right, then God has just sent a bad person to heaven, and sent a decent guy to hell who probaly would have changed his life and actually done more good than three other men combined who went to heaven, all because the guy died in a tragic accident that was not his fault at all and he was 21, thus he must be in hell forever??

You left out God in the matter, the one that foreknew what decisions a person will make in the end. If God foreknew that the 21 year old would have accepted him in the end if he gave him more time, perhaps he would have? Or perhaps he could have drawn him somehow, or used someone to bring him to salvation before his death if he knew that he would have accepted him. Who's to say that this does not happen?

And soooo many others who arent even good people at all but become good people and Christian when they are 90 or so only because they KNOW they are going to die soon, unlike the 21 year old who thought he had his whole life ahead of him

Matthew 20
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' 13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

it brings me back to the same question I always have in my mind but can never awnser why do so many bad people go to heaven and why do so many good go to hell.

Why do Christians even want to go into Prisons and preach to bad men serveing long sentences. Why would we WANT them to be christians? So they can go to heaven even they are horrible people in the past and so many decent men are in hell?

Luke 7
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

I heard someone ask once, "why does God bind men over to disobediance?" and his reply was, "perhaps because it is the sinners that know they need forgiveness and mercy because of their sins are so apparent, whereas the one's that are "good" (no one is good but God alone) do not believe that they are in need of anything.

 

[Zecryphon]

There are two places you should consider, both hades and gehenna. They are not interchangable, as revelations proves by saying that both death and HADES will be thrown into the lake of fire. Also, Jesus uses both words at different times, they are two DIFFERENT places, and when taking this into account, we can better interpret what Jesus was talking about and what scriptures mean.

Some people believe that the gehenna fire was within hades, making it hot and smelling of brimestone

I'm not sure what you mean by "what is death?" Who has a better definition then non-existance? What is LIFE but existance? What is destruction but the opposite of creation? To create and to destroy are opposites. I don't think my interpretation is far-fetched. I think eternal suffering is much harder to prove in fact and much more far fetched.

"There are two places you should consider, both hades and gehenna."

I know of them and have considered both.

"They are not interchangable, as revelations proves by saying that both death and HADES will be thrown into the lake of fire. Also, Jesus uses both words at different times, they are two DIFFERENT places, and when taking this into account, we can better interpret what Jesus was talking about and what scriptures mean."

Yep.

"Some people believe that the gehenna fire was within hades, making it hot and smelling of brimestone"

As I understand it, Gehenna was a burning garbage dump near Jerusalem. Since we know it is near Jerusalem it can not be contained within Hades.

"I'm not sure what you mean by "what is death?""

I posed that question because there are people who think that death simply means not being resurrected to eternal life on the last day, therefore those who are not in Christ will just stay dead and never be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity.

"Who has a better definition then non-existance? What is LIFE but existance? What is destruction but the opposite of creation? To create and to destroy are opposites. I don't think my interpretation is far-fetched."

I haven't called anyone's interpretation far-fetched. I have called universalism heresy though, and rightly so. LOL

"I think eternal suffering is much harder to prove in fact and much more far fetched."

Again, I never said your view was far-fetched. But God makes it clear what He's going to do in His word, there's really no point arguing about it. It's like the end-times debate. God is gonna do what He's gonna do, what we think He's gonna do is really ultimately pointless. LOL

 

[LJSGM]

Again, I never said your view was far-fetched. But God makes it clear what He's going to do in His word, there's really no point arguing about it. It's like the end-times debate. God is gonna do what He's gonna do, what we think He's gonna do is really ultimately pointless. LOL[/COLOR]

Perhaps you are right...

but have you ever talked to a person that was very close to accepting Jesus' gift of salvation, but couldn't because they could not believe in such a God that would torture people for eternity, and yet, I couldn't give a good arguement for it.

It is a stumbling stone, but perhaps it was put there by God, or perhaps it was put there by satan, should we not discern this if it causes people to loose their free gift of salvation?

 

[Tavita]

I know what unitarian universalism is, and they give no Special thought to the religion of Christianity, but I wasn't speaking of my encounter with a unitarian, but of a christian universalist. It was in fact an example of how people can over-spiritualize the scriptures. They have taken a literal meaning (that Jesus came in the flesh) and spiritualized it to say that he didnt' LITERALLY come in the flesh, but only spiritually. Now if you admit that Jesus literally came in the flesh, then you believe that the bible possesses both literal and spiritual meanings, and that we have to discern what the true meaning of various verses are. You can over-spiritualize the scriptures, just like you can over-literalize them.

I think it's unfortunate that you met one universalist who over-spiritualized the scriptures to the point they have the spirit of anti-christ...

1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

And that you would use that to make it look like (though maybe not intentionally) ALL universalists do the same.

And I agree with everything else you've said, but what is the point you're making? Do you really believe all universalists over-spiritualize the scriptures? I don't believe they do, I believe they see the scriptures concerning eternal suffering with simply a different perspective. I believed in eternal torment for over twenty five years until I was shown differently by the Holy Spirit. It was like having my eyes opened to a truth that had been hidden. It was a revelation that unfolded over many months, and it still continues to unfold. I would just say to anyone be careful not to close your mind to truth because it doesn't go along, or fit, with the traditional teaching you've heard elsewhere.

 

[james415]

I know what unitarian universalism is, and they give no Special thought to the religion of Christianity, but I wasn't speaking of my encounter with a unitarian, but of a christian universalist. It was in fact an example of how people can over-spiritualize the scriptures. They have taken a literal meaning (that Jesus came in the flesh) and spiritualized it to say that he didnt' LITERALLY come in the flesh, but only spiritually. Now if you admit that Jesus literally came in the flesh, then you believe that the bible possesses both literal and spiritual meanings, and that we have to discern what the true meaning of various verses are. You can over-spiritualize the scriptures, just like you can over-literalize them.

I am not clear on what you mean by over spiritualizing. I believe most of the stories in the bible actually happened including Christ (Spirit) coming in the flesh (Jesus), but were Gods way of using earthly things we can see and understand to describe heavenly things we can not see and do not understand. Would this be over spiritualizing in your view?

Galatians 4:24-26 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

I also believe God wants us to stop trusting in what we see, the literal, and put our trust in what is unseen, the spiritual. Would doing this be over spiritualizing?

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

 

[Shiversblood]

What if they had Jails and Prisons inside of hell for extra punishment? I've thought about that once.

 

[Ben12]

I am a Christian Universalism and i believe very much there was a real Adam and Eve as well as a Joseph, a Benjamin and of course a Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee over two thousand years a go. I know of no natural person in scripture who I do not believe were human people just like the rest of us. But I also know and understand there is a deep hidden spiritual message; and I understand why people of God do not hear, or spiritually see the deeper message. But it is not the problem is the church today is far to carnal and the last thing they would ever look for is some thing spiritual. Something new, something deep and something higher. Mystery (Gk) sacred secret.


1 Cor 2:9-16
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural (religous) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(KJV)

 

[Zecryphon]

Perhaps you are right...

but have you ever talked to a person that was very close to accepting Jesus' gift of salvation, but couldn't because they could not believe in such a God that would torture people for eternity, and yet, I couldn't give a good arguement for it.

It is a stumbling stone, but perhaps it was put there by God, or perhaps it was put there by satan, should we not discern this if it causes people to loose their free gift of salvation?

"but have you ever talked to a person that was very close to accepting Jesus' gift of salvation, but couldn't because they could not believe in such a God that would torture people for eternity, and yet, I couldn't give a good arguement for it."

Don't try and give a good argument for it. Instead try this. Ask the person to stop looking at it from a human perspective and try looking at it from God's perspective. How abominable must just one sin be to a holy and righteous God for Him to send people to Hell for all eternity. When we think of it this way it gives us the proper perspective on just how horrible sin is and gives us a wake up call to the harsh realities, because let's face it, as humans we have become desensitized to that.

I used to run into the problem you describe of people being really close to a decision but not being able to do it, then I started using the moral law, God's moral law in my evangelism encounters and then people saw their need for a savior and understood God's wrath more clearly. Suddenly, Hell, became reasonable and just.

"It is a stumbling stone, but perhaps it was put there by God, or perhaps it was put there by satan, should we not discern this if it causes people to loose their free gift of salvation?"

I don't see how it causes people to lose something, they haven't received in the first place. They were close as you have said, but never repented of their sins and trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ. So they are not saved and therefore can not lose salvation, if I understand you correctly.