Hell is a 404

Light of the East · Dec 4, 2016

SkyWriting said:
So He is with you in Hell as well. Doesn't sound
too bad then in your version. Knowing God is there
I have a pretty high pain tolerance.

You have no idea what you are saying. The presence of God for those who love sin and hate God is a torment to them. They will be face to face with their sins, the reality of what they have done, how they have hurt people, and possibly experience the pain they caused others. There will be nowhere to hide from the truth of who you are and no excuse to sell yourself.

JacksBratt · Dec 4, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
The KJV is NOT a "foundational version" - that distinction belongs to the body of extant Old Testament and New Testament books in Hebrew and Greek, respectively. Remember, always, that you are reading an English translation of those foundational documents. Professional Bible scholars and theologians have also done their study, and some have come to conclusions such as these verses don't belong, Jesus didn't say that, etc. Where is the hue & cry for that? Maybe Hell is a more important idol than what these scholars want to remove in violation of God's command not to add or take away from, His Word. I have not added or taken away, just exposed the intrusion of pagan terms and concepts into the Holy Scriptures. Be aware that I have traced Hell back to Norse mythology.

All I am saying, in regards to the KJV of our Bible, is that preachers, good solid Christian men, men after God's heart and preaching the absolute truth, have been using the KJV to save the souls of the lost for centuries.

To state that under close scrutiny, this version teaches no hell or eternal death that we call hell, is absurd.

The KJV teaches, strongly, that Christ was our savior, our messiah and the OT foreshadows His coming and prophesies it extensively. It preaches a sound truth of "accept Christ" of have eternal torment, death, punishment, what we call hell.

To say otherwise is, also, absurd.

Light of the East · Dec 4, 2016

JacksBratt said:
The KJV teaches, strongly, that Christ was our savior, our messiah and the OT foreshadows His coming and prophesies it extensively. It preaches a sound truth of "accept Christ" of have eternal torment, death, punishment, what we call hell.

No, it doesn't. It is not so clear that what you say is true when the Greek of the original autographs speaks of "age-long" punishment rather than the idea of an eternal and never-ending punishment.

One thing I am going to be studying in the next couple of months is this: what exactly is meant by being "saved?" Saved from what? Christ gave numerous warnings of the coming of the destruction of Israel in AD 70 when Jerusalem fell. Matthew 23 - 25 appear to speak specifically about this. So when it speaks of being saved, is this what the Apostles and the Lord are looking towards - the coming wrath of God upon Jerusalem for Her murder of the Son of God?

It will take some time, but it will be an interesting study.

Associated with that is the study of how the Eastern Church views salvation vs the Western Church. The Western view is judicial and punitive, and is based on Roman law theory of the Roman Empire. The Eastern view is medicinal and restorative. It looks more to the restoration of man's nature through union with Christ than it does the idea of just beating the hell out of everyone.

Hillsage · Dec 4, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
I am not impressed. You left out one important Greek-speaking Church Father, Paul. Paul never used the word Hell, and for all the insertion of the word into the KJV, "hell" does not appear in his epistles. On the other hand, Paul did write this, in II Thessalonians, chapter 2: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" Could the strong delusion and lie be the Hell theology? Given what you have posted, yes, I think it could be.

Though what you say is true, it kind of isn't also. Because Paul did use the word which was always translated as HELL, except in one verse....where Paul is referring to Christians getting out of HELL after dying and being sent there. But in that 'one verse', the scribes of Jeremiah 8:8 had to hide that truth and change that word...that ONE time, from HADES/HELL to "grave" or "death" depending upon which 'false scribed' translation you read. And in doing so they did, as someone earlier accused us of doing; "diverge from the plain text of the Bible into rabbit hole logic like this."...'the hell you say'.

1CO 15:55 "O death/thanatos, where is thy victory? O death/HADES, where is thy sting?"

But those, like us, would be just as happy if they'd translated the word HADES to GRAVE or DEATH every time....and pursued the truth, no matter where it took them in contradiction to orthodoxy.

Hillsage · Dec 4, 2016

antletems said:
Hell is here and now for me

Reminds me of the cemetery where two friends overheard the widow talking to her pastor after he'd just buried her husband; "Do you think my pathetic, inadequate, weak, idiot husband is in HELL? That was when one of the deceased friends, said to the other; "NOT ANY MORE!"

Lazarus Short · Dec 4, 2016

Hillsage said:
Though what you say is true, it kind of isn't also. Because Paul did use the word which was always translated as HELL, except in one verse....where Paul is referring to Christians getting out of HELL after dying and being sent there. But in that 'one verse', the scribes of Jeremiah 8:8 had to hide that truth and change that word...that ONE time, from HADES/HELL to "grave" or "death" depending upon which 'false scribed' translation you read. And in doing so they did, as someone earlier accused us of doing; "diverge from the plain text of the Bible into rabbit hole logic like this."...'the hell you say'.

1CO 15:55 "O death/thanatos, where is thy victory? O death/HADES, where is thy sting?"

But those, like us, would be just as happy if they'd translated the word HADES to GRAVE or DEATH every time....and pursued the truth, no matter where it took them in contradiction to orthodoxy.

The Old Testament, of which your Jeremiah 8:8 was a part, used the word "sheol," and I found that the KJV translators rendered it as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, and as "hell" about half the time. I got curious, so I divided them into two groups by how it was rendered, and found that the verses in the grave/pit group had contexts not conductive to sheol ===> hell. On the other hand, when context allowed, sheol became hell. They were not perfectly consistent - I did find that too, but why would a single Hebrew word be translated as three different words in English? They should have transliterated more than just the names of pagan "gods."

JacksBratt · Dec 4, 2016

Light of the East said:
No, it doesn't. It is not so clear that what you say is true when the Greek of the original autographs speaks of "age-long" punishment rather than the idea of an eternal and never-ending punishment.

One thing I am going to be studying in the next couple of months is this: what exactly is meant by being "saved?" Saved from what? Christ gave numerous warnings of the coming of the destruction of Israel in AD 70 when Jerusalem fell. Matthew 23 - 25 appear to speak specifically about this. So when it speaks of being saved, is this what the Apostles and the Lord are looking towards - the coming wrath of God upon Jerusalem for Her murder of the Son of God?

It will take some time, but it will be an interesting study.

Associated with that is the study of how the Eastern Church views salvation vs the Western Church. The Western view is judicial and punitive, and is based on Roman law theory of the Roman Empire. The Eastern view is medicinal and restorative. It looks more to the restoration of man's nature through union with Christ than it does the idea of just beating the hell out of everyone.

Look at it from which ever angle you wish. It will still come up the same way.

It is not "beating the hell out of everyone". It is absolutely simple.....

God cannot be near sin. Sin cannot exist around God. The two cannot be in the same place.

We are sin. We are unrighteous. We cannot exist in the presence of God. Period.

Christ died on the cross, for MY SINS. I accepted His gift of forgiveness and payment for my sins. Now, being washed clean by the blood of Christ, I can exist in the presence of God.

See, it's simple. No salvation = cannot exist in the presence of God.
Salvation through Christ's sacrifice = Pure, clean, washed in the blood innocent. Therefore, life in eternal presence with God.

This is the gospel in its most basic form. The Bible is founded on this.

Soon as you start saying "hell is not real" or "hell is not for eternity" or "hell is only on earth"..... that is the same lie as the one to Eve when the serpent said "you will not surely die"

Face it. It's sacrilegious apostate theology to say that hell is not a real and eternal place of punishment for those that reject Christ our savior.

If you don't accept Christs pardon, payment, forgiveness... you cannot exist in the presence of God.

There is no "after death escape plan" there is no 25year parole date... If you don't decide now, before you die, you are done forever.

You either accept Christs gift by faith before death, or, you reject Him.

Light of the East · Dec 4, 2016

Look at it from which ever angle you wish. It will still come up the same way.

It is not "beating the hell out of everyone". It is absolutely simple.....

Read Dante's Inferno and some of the Medieval writers who wrote on hell and then come back and try to tell me that. There's an almost obscene delight they appear to take in the suffering of the wicked.

God cannot be near sin. Sin cannot exist around God. The two cannot be in the same place.

We are sin. We are unrighteous. We cannot exist in the presence of God. Period.

And now you are completely wrong. We are not sin. We are children of God, each and every single one of us, no matter how warped or how deeply we go into sin. Your ontology of mankind is entirely screwed up and sounds like the Calvinist heresy.

Christ died on the cross, for MY SINS. I accepted His gift of forgiveness and payment for my sins. Now, being washed clean by the blood of Christ, I can exist in the presence of God.

I disagree. He did not make a payment for "my sins." If there is anything of payment, it is for the sins of mankind. We see this in Hebrews because He is the Great High Priest, and in that capacity, makes atonement for mankind corporately, just as the high priest in the OT did.

The Eastern Church does not look at salvation as a payoff for sins or the satiation of some sort of legal debt owed. Rather we approach it from the understanding of medicinal cure of the disease of sin. Christ's sacrifice restores mankind to God. Our reception of it begins the process of healing of our souls and the change into being gods.

See, it's simple. No salvation = cannot exist in the presence of God.

Well, yeah. Which is why the Scriptures speak of the restoration of all things. Actually, I think this might prove the point of universal salvation, since sin cannot exist in the presence of God, something will have to be done to change sinners into little Christs. And if it doesn't get done here, it will have to happen in the next life. There is no place in all of Creation that God is not, therefore, somehow sin will have to be dealt with in a fashion which removes it from the created universe. It would seem that leaves only two choices: universal salvation in which all are ontologically changed or being annihilated if you are wicked.

Salvation through Christ's sacrifice = Pure, clean, washed in the blood innocent. Therefore, life in eternal presence with God.

Nope. That's the Protestant view. Doesn't have a leg upon which to stand theologically. The minute you sin after you have been united to Christ ("saved") you are no longer clean and need cleansing again. This is why our Lord gave to the Apostles the authority to forgive sins (John 10:23) and the Sacrament of Confession.

This is the gospel in its most basic form. The Bible is founded on this.

Soon as you start saying "hell is not real" or "hell is not for eternity" or "hell is only on earth"..... that is the same lie as the one to Eve when the serpent said "you will not surely die"

There is no hell. Gehenna means "the grave." Some translator somewhere was highly dishonest with his work, and the Church, for some reason, let it fly.

When you die, you go into the presence of God to be judged and receive the reward of that which you have done in your body. Those who have done good deeds receive aionios life (eternal life). Those who have not shall receive condemnation. What that means is up to God, but it is A.) corrective and B.) most unpleasant. It is the reward of curse for a life lived in evil deeds.

Face it. It's sacrilegious apostate theology to say that hell is not a real and eternal place of punishment for those that reject Christ our savior.

If you don't accept Christ's pardon, payment, forgiveness... you cannot exist in the presence of God.

There is no "after death escape plan" there is no 25 year parole date... If you don't decide now, before you die, you are done forever.

Then God is unjust. Tell me what sin merits eternal torture? We are taught in Scripture that the punishment must fit the crime, are we not? Does God hold us to a standard that He Himself does not keep? Tell me why such standard does not apply to the justice of the Lord after death and what sin deserves eternal torment?

You either accept Christ's gift by faith before death, or, you reject Him.

Believing in the mercy of God does not mean that one rejects Him. Union with Christ is imperative to salvation, having one's every single theological point perfect is not. Scripture teaches that eternal life is given to those who do good deeds, not those who are theologically perfect.

thesunisout · Dec 4, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions

Matthew 25:41

hen he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Hell is a real place which was created by God for the devil, and anyone else who follows him

Daniel9v9 · Dec 4, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
You have just about called me a disciple of Satan. Do you realize how un-Christian that is? Since you post your conclusion FIRST, it only means that an eternal Hell may be the core of your Belief System, when it should be Jesus. Do you realize that millions of unbelievers out there are unbelieving because they "get" the disconnect between a God who loves them (so they are told), and an eternal Hell they will be sent to if they don't believe? These are intelligent, honest people, and one can hardly blame them. Hell makes the Gospel (Good News) Bad News for most of humanity. Do you suppose that Christianity spread to the far ends of the known world in just the first century by preaching Hell? No, quite the opposite!

No, I twisted nothing. I merely listed a set of Scriptures which did not quite go your way. I mistranslated nothing - again just listed Scriptures, and drew a valid conclusion from them. I took nothing out of context, for I stress keeping things in context, like the one point which covers Exodus thru Deuteronomy. I did not "spin a yarn" - I made a methodical, careful study of the Scriptures with a view to discern if they supported the existence of Hell, or not. I know that for many Christians, Hell is axiomatic, but it is not.

In my rather lengthy post (sorry!) on page 6 I explain about God's goodness and righteousness, and that He is not the source of evil, as well as the dangers and problems of proclaiming there is no second death. So, I won't repeat much of that here. However, I want to point out another problem: the issue of goodness in people.

Scriptures clearly states that no one is good:
Psalms 14:3 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 64:6 Job 14:4 Romans 3:23

Our Lord Jesus Christ plainly declared that we are evil:
Luke 11:13 Mark 10:18

Furthermore, we are dead in sins:
Ephesians 2:1 Colossians 2:13 Luke 9:60

When the Bible DOES speak about people being righteous - especially in the Old Testament - it's important to recognize that it's talking about people being righteous towards other people and not towards God, or that they are COUNTED as righteous on account of their faith. There's a very big difference here. Get this one thing wrong and we're in for a world of error!

If one evil does good to another evil, that doesn't make it good or righteous before God, but rather, it's still evil, still in debt, dead in sin and separated from God out of their own selfish desires and corrupt nature. No one can earn salvation, no one is worthy - no one can save themselves - much less can someone who are dead become alive by their of works.

It's only on account of Christ Jesus that people are counted as righteous before God. This is the gospel and the amazing gift of God - holy and incomprehensible grace - the depth of God's love! However, if people reject Christ, they also reject the free gift of forgiveness of sins, life and adoptionship.

If we proclaim that people who in sin and rebellion reject Christ will be saved, we're preaching a different gospel.

Furthermore, if the reasoning behind this is based on people not deserving a second death, again, we fail to understand the plain teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles. And moreover we fail to weigh in the gravity and severity of sin - that sin of every kind is overthrowing God's authority. Just consider first commandment on its own - by not believing in God, we are sinning towards God, because we exalt ourselves or things of the world above God.

If we are of the secular persuasion that people are inherently good or at least capable of some goodness before God, we're no longer preaching a dangerous heterodoxy, but an old heresy called Pelagianism.

Still more, if we proclaim that there is salvation outside the means given us - that is, faith is Christ Jesus - we're not gathering but scattering. Matthew 12:30

When you say that people fail to understand a God who loves them but wants to punish unbelievers with a second death, you are right - but this is why we need to get God's love, goodness, righteousness and the gospel right - so we may appeal to all, the good news of Jesus Christ properly!

Lazarus Short · Dec 5, 2016

thesunisout said:
Matthew 25:41

hen he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Hell is a real place which was created by God for the devil, and anyone else who follows him

When death, the last enemy, is defeated (I Corinthians 15:26), how can anyone be dead and/or in Hell after that? It is excluded. The place of age-long (not eternal, look it up in an interlinear version) fire is the Lake of Fire, and when death is defeated, it must give up its dead. Where is your eternal Hell now?

Lazarus Short · Dec 5, 2016

Daniel9v9 said:
In my rather lengthy post (sorry!) on page 6 I explain about God's goodness and righteousness, and that He is not the source of evil, as well as the dangers and problems of proclaiming there is no second death. So, I won't repeat much of that here. However, I want to point out another problem: the issue of goodness in people.

Scriptures clearly states that no one is good:
Psalms 14:3 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 64:6 Job 14:4 Romans 3:23

Our Lord Jesus Christ plainly declared that we are evil:
Luke 11:13 Mark 10:18

Furthermore, we are dead in sins:
Ephesians 2:1 Colossians 2:13 Luke 9:60

When the Bible DOES speak about people being righteous - especially in the Old Testament - it's important to recognize that it's talking about people being righteous towards other people and not towards God, or that they are COUNTED as righteous on account of their faith. There's a very big difference here. Get this one thing wrong and we're in for a world of error!

If one evil does good to another evil, that doesn't make it good or righteous before God, but rather, it's still evil, still in debt, dead in sin and separated from God out of their own selfish desires and corrupt nature. No one can earn salvation, no one is worthy - no one can save themselves - much less can someone who are dead become alive by their of works.

It's only on account of Christ Jesus that people are counted as righteous before God. This is the gospel and the amazing gift of God - holy and incomprehensible grace - the depth of God's love! However, if people reject Christ, they also reject the free gift of forgiveness of sins, life and adoptionship.

If we proclaim that people who in sin and rebellion reject Christ will be saved, we're preaching a different gospel.

Furthermore, if the reasoning behind this is based on people not deserving a second death, again, we fail to understand the plain teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles. And moreover we fail to weigh in the gravity and severity of sin - that sin of every kind is overthrowing God's authority. Just consider first commandment on its own - by not believing in God, we are sinning towards God, because we exalt ourselves or things of the world above God.

If we are of the secular persuasion that people are inherently good or at least capable of some goodness before God, we're no longer preaching a dangerous heterodoxy, but an old heresy called Pelagianism.

Still more, if we proclaim that there is salvation outside the means given us - that is, faith is Christ Jesus - we're not gathering but scattering. Matthew 12:30

When you say that people fail to understand a God who loves them but wants to punish unbelievers with a second death, you are right - but this is why we need to get God's love, goodness, righteousness and the gospel right - so we may appeal to all, the good news of Jesus Christ properly!

I really have no big issue with what you say here, except this: "If we proclaim that people who in sin and rebellion reject Christ will be saved, we're preaching a different gospel." It comes down to whether God with the wicked, or our wickedness.

We have three views on this:

1. God saves all, by His holy fire burning away our dross, tares, chaff, etc.

2. God burns the wicked to ashes, and that's that.

3. God sends the wicked to eternal Hell.

I have found little to support #2 in the Bible. Option #3 looked possible until I examined what the words translated as "hell" really meant. For the "eternal" part, I looked in an interlinear version and discovered that the Greek word used meant "age-long," not "eternal." That leaves #1 - but does God really save all? Independent of my Hell investigation, I searched to find if God was both willing AND able to save all. First, I found that He is willing - that was easy. Finding that He was able took some more time, and then I remembered His omnipotence, and that was the clincher. Remember what I posted in my OP:

20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

Have you checked those Scriptures? I offer them, not as some new-age crank, but as a humble follower of Jesus the Christ. I write for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Pray on these things.

JacksBratt · Dec 5, 2016

Light of the East said:
Read Dante's Inferno and some of the Medieval writers who wrote on hell and then come back and try to tell me that. There's an almost obscene delight they appear to take in the suffering of the wicked.

I don't get my opinions of the eternal afterlife and the Biblical truth of it by reading poems of non biblical nature.
Dante's Inferno is far from canon. It is just one mans work of poetry.

Light of the East said:

And now you are completely wrong. We are not sin. We are children of God, each and every single one of us, no matter how warped or how deeply we go into sin. Your ontology of mankind is entirely screwed up and sounds like the Calvinist heresy.

Click to expand...

Well, we can be children of God. However, we are born into sin, are sinners and need a Savior.
Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:9 ESV / 8 helpful votes

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Galatians 3:26King James Version (KJV)

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

See, we are sinners and become "children of God", only, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And, you must realize that it is by our faith that we are saved and by our faith that we, then and only then, become "children of God".

Light of the East said:

I disagree. He did not make a payment for "my sins." If there is anything of payment, it is for the sins of mankind. We see this in Hebrews because He is the Great High Priest, and in that capacity, makes atonement for mankind corporately, just as the high priest in the OT did.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to argue over the theology of whether He died for my sins a lone. However we do have this for reassurance.

Galatians 2:20King James Version (KJV)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

He gave Himself, for me.

Yes, He did die for all of mankind. But the only ones who will benefit are the ones who confess with their mouth......

Just look at the most famous verse in the Bible... John 3:16

Light of the East said:

The Eastern Church does not look at salvation as a payoff for sins or the satiation of some sort of legal debt owed. Rather we approach it from the understanding of medicinal cure of the disease of sin. Christ's sacrifice restores mankind to God.

Click to expand...

Ya, I've heard this before. How cumbersome that must be, to continually need to be saved over and over and over.

John 10:28-29King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The problem here is the scenario I have presented before:
A man, prays in the morning for his sins to be forgiven, yet sins at work and dies on the way home from work with unforgiven sins.

Is he saved? If not, this contradicts scripture and would be impossible for us to have assurance of eternal life unless we perpetually pray to have each and every sin forgiven the moment we commit it.

If he is still saved and retains his salvation after this sin, then you have the issue of "how many sins are too many". At what point does the man lose his salvation. How many sins?

Once we are saved, we are always saved. This is the blessed assurance. We do need to grow, in Christ, as Christians, and become mature Christians. We come as babies but grow into adult Christians. It is our human nature to sin, we cannot stop.

Light of the East said:

Our reception of it begins the process of healing of our souls and the change into being gods.

Click to expand...

A process? We begin a process of healing? So, at what point do I have eternal life? One day? One week? One year? The thief on the cross had no process. He was instantly forgiven and given eternal life.

Light of the East said:

Well, yeah. Which is why the Scriptures speak of the restoration of all things. Actually, I think this might prove the point of universal salvation, since sin cannot exist in the presence of God, something will have to be done to change sinners into little Christs. And if it doesn't get done here, it will have to happen in the next life. There is no place in all of Creation that God is not, therefore, somehow sin will have to be dealt with in a fashion which removes it from the created universe. It would seem that leaves only two choices: universal salvation in which all are ontologically changed or being annihilated if you are wicked.

Click to expand...

There is no "universal salvation". There is absolutely no biblical basis for it. Salvation is a personal choice and not a blanket policy.

When we accept Christs gift of salvation we are crucified with Him and become as He.

Galatians 2:20King James Version (KJV)
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This reinforces the once saved always saved view. If Christ only needed to be crucified once, I only need to be saved and crucified with Him once.
Salvation through Christ's sacrifice = Pure, clean, washed in the blood innocent. Therefore, life in eternal presence with God.

Light of the East said:

Nope. That's the Protestant view. Doesn't have a leg upon which to stand theologically. The minute you sin after you have been united to Christ ("saved") you are no longer clean and need cleansing again. This is why our Lord gave to the Apostles the authority to forgive sins (John 10:23) and the Sacrament of Confession.

Click to expand...

John 10:23 is not talking about the Apostles. It is talking about the Jewish leaders.

This idea that "the minute I sin again I am no longer clean", will send everyone to hell unless they are perpetually praying for forgiveness.
Can you imagine??

Light of the East said:

There is no hell. Gehenna means "the grave." Some translator somewhere was highly dishonest with his work, and the Church, for some reason, let it fly.

When you die, you go into the presence of God to be judged and receive the reward of that which you have done in your body. Those who have done good deeds receive aionios life (eternal life). Those who have not shall receive condemnation. What that means is up to God, but it is A.) corrective and B.) most unpleasant. It is the reward of curse for a life lived in evil deeds.

Click to expand...

What you are describing here is "works based" salvation. It is clear that we are not saved by our works, but by faith.

There is nothing I can "do" for my salvation. Nothing in my power will save me from my sins. If this was not true, then there would be no need for Christ's sacrifice.

There is a "hell". No matter what name you want to give it, we call it "hell". There is a place where the people who rejected Christ, will go for eternity. It will be separation from God, which is bad enough, and punishment for our sins.

Matthew 25:46King James Version (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Well, let's see..

James 2:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So one sin means guilty of all sin.

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So, since all have sinned and fall short, it is a mute point to ask "what sin merits eternal torture", as we all have not met the mark that must be achieved in order to go to heaven.

Light of the East said:

We are taught in Scripture that the punishment must fit the crime, are we not?

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I have not seen this in scripture, anywhere. The scriptures just state that we are all sinners, we all are unfit to go to heaven and Christ is our only hope to get there.

If you believe that God is too harsh in His punishments, you best take it up with Him.

Light of the East said:

Does God hold us to a standard that He Himself does not keep?

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Ha, seriously? We haven't got the capabilities of matching the standards that God sets.

Look, He became man and lived a sinless life. Not one human in the history of the universe can match the standard He set in just that feat alone.

Light of the East said:

Tell me why such standard does not apply to the justice of the Lord after death and what sin deserves eternal torment?

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I have no idea what you are talking about here.

God is just. Jesus Christ has been given the power and authority to judge all humans. This is directly due to the fact that He walked in our shoes and sinned not, then, died on the cross for our sins, conquered death and hell and is now giving the free gift of salvation to those that believe this.

You either accept Christ's gift by faith before death, or, you reject Him.

Light of the East said:

Believing in the mercy of God does not mean that one rejects Him. Union with Christ is imperative to salvation, having one's every single theological point perfect is not. Scripture teaches that eternal life is given to those who do good deeds, not those who are theologically perfect.

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Rejecting Christ just means that we have been made aware of His saving offer of salvation and not taking it. You deny His gift, you deny His ability to save, you deny His authority.

For whatever reason you decide not to accept Christ's gift of salvation, that is called rejecting Him and the expression of Love He gave you.

Scripture is emphatically against salvation by deeds. You are right that theological perfection is not important.

It is one thing and one thing only.... Faith that asking Christ for forgiveness of your sins and believing that He will do this and give you salvation.......period.

DWA2DAY · Dec 5, 2016

Hi Crystall Dragon
You wrote
"Revelation was a message to the church leaders at the time with heavy symbolism regarding the Roman Empire, it shouldn't be taken at face value."

What other books or parts of the bible should we ignore or rather not take at face value. For example "behold I stand at the door and knock, who ever opens ......... "
Dose this mean God is not calling us to be Followers of Christ?

Blade · Dec 5, 2016

Hey..,Lazarus Short.. what does that even mean haha..

Ok to many question's here for me to want to answer sorry. You have not even begin to search and study..well take satan.. well I dont want him (playing) hehe. But Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. You really have to search and pray. Or "I create evil".. is that really what that means? Well take when GOD put on Egypt HIS plagues. God has plagues? The tree of Good and evil. Before man was made satan had already fell.

Anyway the point is.. you have not even started to study each book each verse. No.. really. I DONT know why GOD takes His time to tell us things. There are things I have asked for YEARS to then FINALLY get the answer from Him. You know that verse you read. and every time.. your like. I know what some people say.. but.. what in the WORLD does that mean? To then one day reading the bible waiting for my son to get out of school to pick him up. I asked.. what does that mean.. to hear I am the....blah blah blah. Or to simply prayer "show me people through your eyes" to then be driving home with my wife to get the answer 15YEARS later. So.. YEAH HELLO! There must be NO TIME with Him. We REALLY need to remind GOD .. a.... Father.. were not looking at the same clock I think. For Him its been what a few seconds.. for me was YEARS! Hello! haha

So my brother.. keep asking HIM and you will be reading that same chapter that same verse and BAM.. your like.. how in the WORLD could I have not seen that. I read it a million times. You really think you know the real meaning? He can keep going with that same verse and NEVER say the same thing twice. Like in heaven.. you stand there with BILLIONS..yet.. why is HE only looking at you? As if your the only one.. everything was made for YOU..your are the most special to Him. You were the reason He came and died.. just for you!

Yet.. strange how.. you know HE feels the same for ALL.. and that makes it even greater.. so strange!

NorthernWarrior · Dec 5, 2016

CodyFaith said:
Says secular historians.

Says anyone who actually knows anything about how the books of the Bible came to be.
Corpus Iohannaeum is from around the turn of the century. The latest of the NT. Corpus Synopticum is from no later than the early 60s

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Dec 5, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”

2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.

9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.

12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.

14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.

15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…

17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.

19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

Thank you for sharing the conclusions of your research!!

xlr8ing · Dec 5, 2016

This thread awakens me to the true struggles all the apostles must have endured trying to spread the doctrine of Christ. So many divisions exist among believers today it hurts my heart to read. Peace.

Lazarus Short · Dec 5, 2016

Blade said:
Hey..,Lazarus Short.. what does that even mean haha...You have not even begin to search and study...you have not even started to study each book each verse. No.. really.

No, really, I did study each book, each chapter of each book, and each verse of each chapter. How do you know differently? No, you don't, so I see no reason to read the rest of your post. If you think I haven't "begin" to search and study, it would probably do no good for me to post my 200+ page manuscript here. Do you think you would read it? I think not.

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2016

Light of the East said:
No, it doesn't. It is not so clear that what you say is true when the Greek of the original autographs speaks of "age-long" punishment rather than the idea of an eternal and never-ending punishment.
One thing I am going to be studying in the next couple of months is this: what exactly is meant by being "saved?" Saved from what? Christ gave numerous warnings of the coming of the destruction of Israel in AD 70 when Jerusalem fell. Matthew 23 - 25 appear to speak specifically about this. So when it speaks of being saved, is this what the Apostles and the Lord are looking towards - the coming wrath of God upon Jerusalem for Her murder of the Son of God?
It will take some time, but it will be an interesting study.
Associated with that is the study of how the Eastern Church views salvation vs the Western Church. The Western view is judicial and punitive, and is based on Roman law theory of the Roman Empire. The Eastern view is medicinal and restorative. It looks more to the restoration of man's nature through union with Christ than it does the idea of just beating the hell out of everyone.

There is a pseudo scholarly internet rumor floating around which says "...the Greek of the original autographs speaks of "age-long" punishment..." But for the fact that aion does mean eternity and aionios does mean eternal.
Nine accredited, credible Greek language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
Link: What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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