Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I know I am no better than any unsaved person anywhere, and before assuming that I have such a high regard for myself that I think my own opinion on my salvation status is so important, perhaps I should tell you it is Jesus that knows if I am "saved", not me. As I mentioned earlier, I am not God.

But you're pretty sure Jesus isn't saving a whole lot of other sinners just like you. Got it.

All I can see here is Noah, ark, all those people who drowned, Tower of Babel, pulled down and we are all parted from each other, the incarnation, the Crucifixion, what need could there have been for these events if no one needed to be reconciled to God,

Uh, obviously there is a lot of judgments going on within the masses, ala Eph. 6:12. And we are all, every last one of us, engaged in that wrestling match. And guess what? We ALL lost the match. Not a single one of us made ourselves sinless. No, not one. That's why we (and everyone else) can only be saved by the unmerited Mercy and Grace of God in Christ.

what was the curse in Genesis?

Mark 4:15 happened to both Adam and Eve immediately after God spoke to them. From that point on it was no longer a question of just Adam or just Eve. It was Adam, Eve and the tempter within who stole from them.

God said to the serpent: BECAUSE THOU HAS DONE THIS

DId you miss that part?

What are the two angels doing blocking the entance to Eden doing there?

The serpents within mankind are permanent blocked out of the mercy seat by the wings of the cherubims, similar to what was in the ark, and we are all carriers of the tempter in our own flesh. The flaming sword turns every way, again similar to the flaming Sword from the mouth of Jesus. So there is no getting past for any reasonings. Romans 7:17-25, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14,

Nevertheless man shall LIVE by every Word of God. Even if we DIE from the Sword. Col. 3:3 shows we are technically dead, and our life, HID in Christ. It would be too much to handle in this body anyway.

 

[RamiC]

But you're pretty sure Jesus isn't saving a whole lot of other sinners just like you. Got it.

You are not very good at reading my mind. No, I do not know the numbers, a "whole lot of" or not. I am very sure that we do not need to worry about His judgement being unfair on anyone. Our own is messed up, His is not.

 

[JulieB67]

Ah, but you see you ONLY see the above with an external physical eye, which has nothing to do with what's really going on INSIDE.

We do engage a world that can not be seen with adversaries that can not be seen. Would you agree?

IF so then I'd suggest to get off the flesh sight page and get on with a real close look, inside

As usual you continue to ignore scripture and sidestep.

 

[Hentenza]

It is only simple in your mind because of the methodology you've been led to employ, which is to strike out any verse that doesn't fit your positions. It's quite common. Freewillers only see freewill texts. Determinists only see determinist texts. And on it goes, slicing and dicing and cutting out or tossing aside everything that doesn't fit the mold.

Although there is some truth here the major problem I see with your interpretation methodology is that you introduce tremendous tension in scripture. You believe that each verse stands by itself rather than as a part of the collection we call the Bible. The Bible needs to be interpreted as a whole and the message needs to be consistent. You introduce inconsistency to the word of God by claiming that one verse in isolation trumps context and the authors overall message and intent. I am not striking out any of your verses but merely putting them in the proper context and message. This is why is so simple to refute the UR argument because the interpretation of the cherry picked verses are out of context to the rest of the book and/or chapter.

Let me give you an example from a simple verse.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Positive statement. Believe and you are saved. Common message supported all over the Bible.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who [does not] believes in Him will perish, but [will not] have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Negative statement. Dont believe and no eternal life. Common message supported all over the Bible.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who [does not] believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Statement not ever found in scripture.

So the message is clear. Believe in the way of faith in the redemptive sacrifice of Christ is necessary to obtain an eternal life. If you don’t agree with this then refute it.

On the other hand, you know how this works. Every Word of God applies to EVERYONE. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 and Deut 8:3- absolutely but this does not mean that a verse in an island without context follows God’s message and intention. These verses do not support your out of context argument. In fact, you take the word of God put it in tension against itself. This, of course, distorts the message.

Also, if you apply your argument to all of scripture then you have to agree that Rev. 21:8 is also the word of God. But you ignore this verse and never quote it. Why is that? Do you think that this verse agrees with UR? Maybe you should do like Thomas Jefferson and rip out the parts of the Bible that you don’t like.

Most positions can't seem to get there. Quite an interesting phenomena.

God says: Love your neighbors

The near entirety of the masses read: Burn my unbelieving neighbors alive forever

Funny how that works, ain't it? Put up a law, any law, and people become almost instantly LAWLESS. But when you see that people, even believers, are still under the thumb of the DEVIL in "our" own sorry collective hides, not so strange at all. Predictable even.


What makes you think that this statement needs "interpretation?"

Because your interpretation blames God for His actions. Love goes both ways. God loves everyone but not everyone loves God or their neighbor. The devil is certainly involved spreading evil among us but I find the devil to be almost comical. The devil has already been defeated and only awaits eschatological times to be totally removed. As long as we remain in Christ He is faithful and protects us from evil.

There are multiple soteriology theories that can be explored and broken down for study. Some have biblical merit while some do not. UR is one of those that do not.

When John the Apostle states: everyone who loves knows God and is born of God, there is no modifications required. It says what it says.

Right and the operation words here are “everyone who loves”. Not everyone loves. Those that reject God do not love God so how can they possibly be born of God? Do you think that God is going to force them to love Him? Your conclusion here does not follow.

Your positional interpretation MUST modify a clear statement because if not, your positions fall apart. I say rightfully so. Fall apart. John says what he says. Jesus said no differently. God is Love. We ALL have One Father, God. Matt. 23:9. This is not rocket science.

So refute my argument.

I know full well where your position is: It has zero accounting for the CAPTIVITY OF MANKIND, and I include even my own sorry hide in that group, because we ALL are still subject to the tempter, internally.

Nah. You don’t give Christ enough credit.

IF and WHEN your positions ever factor that in (for yourself) your positions will rightfully change and you might actually end up loving your neighbors. Imagine that?

I love my neighbor. In fact I love my neighbor so much that I want to bring the gospel of good news to them so that they can feel the tremendous love of Christ. You, on the other hand, dont love your neighbor because it does not matter if they believe or not since all will be saved at the end.

Thinking they'll burn alive forever is quite a heavy mental burden, particularly over time. It will drag the carriers down and down, into open lying hypocrisy, thinking "I am better than them." Happens to most.

Then all they have to do is believe. Bring them the gospel so they can find Christ.

But even these serve God's Purposes in judgments of the devil and his messengers.

If you say so.

 

[Studyman]

According to the bible, God is perfectly holy. He is not a human being punishing another human being. We have all broken God's commandments, and deserve only His wrath and punishment. Yes, He is also a God of grace, which is why He sent a Saviour, so that sinners believing in Him could be saved from their deserved punishment. Merely ceasing to exist wouldn't be punishment, certainly not the "everlasting punishment" Jesus spoke about in Matthew 25:46. If one ceases to exist, one cannot experience everlasting punishment.

What is more important than "existing"? The only reason you have a voice, is because God gave you the incredible gift of "existing". There is no joy, no beauty, no holding a child or grandchild, no Love, no heat, no cold, no nothing without existence. No beginning, no end, no growth, no failures, everything you are, all your memories and experiences, are only possible because of God's incredible gift of allowing you to exist.

I am quite certain when men are raised unto life after they died, in most cases clinging to their existence with all their might right to the end, and see that there was eternal existence offered to them, that they saw it, and understood the conditions placed on it, but they rejected it. To know that it was right there in front of them, right in their own hands, but they rejected it to feed some temporary foolish lust of their own flesh. There is no doubt that men will be angry, and will gnash their teeth. When they see that they were warned over and over and over and over and over, but they were so self exalted and greedy to live after the imaginations of their own heart, that they through the chances at eternal existence away. And now there are no other chances, no path to continued existence. Jesus gives a little glimpse into this Judgment concerning many "Christians" in Matt. 7, of their reaction to this reality.

But Jesus, don't you know who we are? We created massive religious businesses and shrines of worship "in your Name". Look at all the stuff we gave you the credit for? But in the end, it still boils down to whether or not a man Glorifies God, "As God" in their existence HE gave them.

The prospect of dying again, only this time it is an Everlasting death, a death from which there is no return. No chance at eating from the Tree of Life, EVER. That's a pretty massive punishment in my view.

 

[RamiC]

God is about love and forgiveness. I refuse to believe he would allow such a place like hell to exist, let alone send people there for mistakes.

Sin and mistake are not the same thing. Sin seperates people from God, but sin must be a willfully made choice, it is freely made choices that make the difference, not mistakes. However, if I make a mistake and it hurts someone, I say sorry. God accepts apologies, and forgives.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

What is more important than "existing"? The only reason you have a voice, is because God gave you the incredible gift of "existing". There is no joy, no beauty, no holding a child or grandchild, no Love, no heat, no cold, no nothing without existence. No beginning, no end, no growth, no failures, everything you are, all your memories and experiences, are only possible because of God's incredible gift of allowing you to exist.

I am quite certain when men are raised unto life after they died, in most cases clinging to their existence with all their might right to the end, and see that there was eternal existence offered to them, that they saw it, and understood the conditions placed on it, but they rejected it. To know that it was right there in front of them, right in their own hands, but they rejected it to feed some temporary foolish lust of their own flesh. There is no doubt that men will be angry, and will gnash their teeth. When they see that they were warned over and over and over and over and over, but they were so self exalted and greedy to live after the imaginations of their own heart, that they through the chances at eternal existence away. And now there are no other chances, no path to continued existence. Jesus gives a little glimpse into this Judgment concerning many "Christians" in Matt. 7, of their reaction to this reality.

But Jesus, don't you know who we are? We created massive religious businesses and shrines of worship "in your Name". Look at all the stuff we gave you the credit for? But in the end, it still boils down to whether or not a man Glorifies God, "As God" in their existence HE gave them.

The prospect of dying again, only this time it is an Everlasting death, a death from which there is no return. No chance at eating from the Tree of Life, EVER. That's a pretty massive punishment in my view.

Your thoughts are well developed enough to cause anyone, like David Lamb to whom you replied, to see there can be, to use your own words, “a pretty massive punishment” being applied without having to keep someone alive in ECT without any hope of escape. Yet for some, nothing short of unending ECT, of which they themselves may partake, will do.

Edit: I could be wrong but you may want to clarify your position. I take your post to mean your current position on those who die in their sins without faith to mean they die an eternal death, that is, to no longer exist. I say this because your post received a “like” from our brother Hentenza whose position is the same as David Lambs. Perhaps maybe brother Hentenza was looking liking your post for a different reason? Just an observation …

 

[Studyman]

Your thoughts are well developed enough to cause anyone, like David Lamb to whom you replied, to see there can be, to use your own words, “a pretty massive punishment” being applied without having to keep someone alive in ECT without any hope of escape. Yet for some, nothing short of unending ECT, of which they themselves may partake, will do.

It is true that this world's religious system does promote the popular tradition that God raises the dead, all of them, let's them all eat of the Tree of Life, then for some, they spend eternal life in Paradise with God, and for others they are tortured in a lake of fire with satan and demons for eternity.

But for me, it's a matter of what is actually written in the Holy scriptures. Adam and Eve were not given to eat of the Tree of Life in their beginning, and are dead still, no doubt, and truly they will be raised from the dead at some point, according to Scriptures. Those mentioned in Revelation 20 that were also raised from the dead, therefore they too, had not yet been given to eat of the Tree of Life, or else they wouldn't need to be raised from the Dead.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may "have right to the tree of life", and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Did Adam and Eve repent, like Noah and Abraham, and turn to God? We don't know because God didn't tell us. We do know that they, along with Abraham and Noah had not yet eaten of the Tree of Life, and as a result, they will remain dead until God raises them, which HE promised to for everyone.

The teaching that God gives all men, regardless of their life's choices, the "Right to the Tree of Life", that they may eat and live forever, some in eternal torture, some in eternal glory, isn't taught anywhere in Scriptures. But a second death, a "death everlasting", that is, a death from which there is no return, no resurrection, no right to the Tree of Life", is taught in scriptures.

It all boils down to the "Simplicity of Christ", in my view. Do we Trust the Word of God, or the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in?

 

[Studyman]

Edit: I could be wrong but you may want to clarify your position. I take your post to mean your current position on those who die in their sins without faith to mean they die an eternal death, that is, to no longer exist. I say this because your post received a “like” from our brother Hentenza whose position is the same as David Lambs. Perhaps maybe brother Hentenza was looking liking your post for a different reason? Just an observation …

In my understanding, since I have separated myself frown this world's religious system and the philosophies it promotes, there are many false teachings that exist in this world God placed you and I in. The whole "eternal life for humans in torture" is only one. It's not uncommon at all for different religious sects of this world believing and promoting different doctrines, some of them even true. For me, I didn't believe "everything" promoted by any religious sect. But I was still deceived into believing some of them. Even the religious sect of the Pharisees, perhaps the most popular religious sect of this world religious system of that time, who Jesus said were children of the devil, believed some of God's Teaching, but omitted some very important Word's of God, as it is written.

I think this is why Jesus said "Man shall Live By Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Which makes sense. If God gives me instruction to build a house, and I follow only SOME of the instructions, even though I obeyed a little, the entire house is corrupted and will not stand.

Perhaps Hentenza has already looked into the whole "every soul is immortal" foolishness and discerned it as we have. Perhaps he will be encouraged to discern other poplar religious philosophies, and therefore "grow" in the knowledge of God.

That would be my hope for everyone, even for me because God is still revealing to me the darkness that surrounded me, that I had loved for so long. Knowing it exists, even if men can't always see it, I Seek God's Truth through the Light of the Gospel, for the very purpose, that my deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (And not man)

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

In my understanding, since I have separated myself frown this world's religious system and the philosophies it promotes, there are many false teachings that exist in this world God placed you and I in. The whole "eternal life for humans in torture" is only one. It's not uncommon at all for different religious sects of this world believing and promoting different doctrines, some of them even true. For me, I didn't believe "everything" promoted by any religious sect. But I was still deceived into believing some of them. Even the religious sect of the Pharisees, perhaps the most popular religious sect of this world religious system of that time, who Jesus said were children of the devil, believed some of God's Teaching, but omitted some very important Word's of God, as it is written.

I think this is why Jesus said "Man shall Live By Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Which makes sense. If God gives me instruction to build a house, and I follow only SOME of the instructions, even though I obeyed a little, the entire house is corrupted and will not stand.

Perhaps Hentenza has already looked into the whole "every soul is immortal" foolishness and discerned it as we have. Perhaps he will be encouraged to discern other poplar religious philosophies, and therefore "grow" in the knowledge of God.

That would be my hope for everyone, even for me because God is still revealing to me the darkness that surrounded me, that I had loved for so long. Knowing it exists, even if men can't always see it, I Seek God's Truth through the Light of the Gospel, for the very purpose, that my deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (And not man)

I am with you on departing from the religious systems of the world. My understanding and belief at this time also goes against main stream orthodoxy in that I believe all men will ultimately proclaim that Jesus is The Christ, the Savior of the world. I respect your position and path away from the bondage of orthodoxy and may we continue to lay down that which we hold to which is not of our Father.

Blessings

 

[Dan1988]

I always had this thought that those who say that the damned will burn up in hell like a piece of wood were right; however, one just can’t get around Matthew 25:46. I wish it wasn’t true, but God’s will be done.

We all wish the bible doctrine of hell wasn't true, but it is true because Jesus Himself confirmed it. He spoke about hell more than anyone else in the bible, and He described hell as a place of eternal torment in fire. The other awful truth about hell. is that the sinners body can't cease to exist and it's never burned up.

Those who put their trust in science, claim that the body must burn up and turn into ash. But secular scientists didn't take into account, the fact that God doesn't have to comply with the laws of secular science. He can break all of their laws with impunity.

God does whatever He pleases, and He doesn't need anyone's permission or approval to do it. We don't even have the right to ask Him to explain Himself to us. He has never revealed why He does what He does because He's a mystery. Nobody seems to have a problem with God wiping out every man, woman, child and unborn baby in the womb (save eight) with Noahs flood.

Most Christians like the meek and mild Jesus, but they don't like the One who is returning as a Man of war to kill billions of people again. He is the same Jesus who will cast sinners into the lake of fire, while the beg for mercy.

 

[Dan1988]

I am sure that this is not actually the case, and I believe the Bible is quite clear that He does not always get what He wants.

Why does the Lord's Prayer include "They will be done", indeed why do we even pray, unless we must choose to connect and follow Him?

I will join you in rejecting the bible doctrine of Gods absolute sovereignty over all things, if you could find a scripture to refute it.

Isaiah 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please".


Daniel 4:34-35 "...all the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: What have you done?".


Acts 17:24-26 God is the one who "made the world and everything in it... and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the whole earth, having determined appointed times and the boundaries of their dwelling place".

Psalms 16:1 "In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps".

Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails".

Romans 9:17-18"For it says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden".

Lamentations 3:37-40 "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Are not both good and bad come from the mouth of the Most High? ...Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord".

Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted".

We are not called to put God on trial, ours is to trust and obey, even when His ways don't seem right in our eyes.

Gods will is not done, because we prayed for it. His will, will be done regardless of anything you or I do or say. So we shouldn't assume that He commands us to pray, in order to help Him decide what He should to do next.

 

[RamiC]

I will join you in rejecting the bible doctrine of Gods absolute sovereignty over all things, if you could find a scripture to refute it.

We have free will, we can choose not to obey God. It is about free will, not sovereignty. Sin exists, and people commit sins, which are essentially things He does not want us to do.

Gods will is not done, because we prayed for it.

No, but prayer does cause us to be aware of His will. Please remember we were told directly by Jesus to pray "They will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

His will, will be done regardless of anything you or I do or say.

Not in each of our individual lives, no. His will is not done by freely chosen, wilful acts of sin. He wishes to have a relationship with each of us, people can choose not to have that for themselves. It is that He tolerates not having His own will done, we have choice because He chose to create us that way, but you appear to be denying that we have that choice.

So we shouldn't assume that He commands us to pray, in order to help Him decide what He should to do next.

"14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." John 14:14 NIV Of course "in His name" means in accordance with His will,

Jesus was asked about how we should pray - right here - "One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:" Luke 11 1-2 NIV

So even to give us the Lord's Prayer, He was responding to a request, not belting out a command.

If we pray according to His will, and to do so is our freely made choice, we are in harmony with His will.
If someone chooses not to, if they pray some other way, or do not do it at all, they are not respecting what He has clearly said He wants us to do.

No He does not require our help making decisions, He desires a connection with us, which we can reject.

​

​

 

[Studyman]

The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, awaits Satan and sinners alike. So what you said about people not being cast into the lake of fire to be tormented in fire for all eternity,, is not supported by the Bible. It's just your wishful thinking which is futile and doesn't change the fact that sinners will experience unimaginable torment in fire forever and ever with no hope of any ending.

I always had this thought that those who say that the damned will burn up in hell like a piece of wood were right; however, one just can’t get around Matthew 25:46. I wish it wasn’t true, but God’s will be done.

I understand how widespread the belief is that human souls are immortal. That every human is raised from the dead unto Eternal Life, and some burn forever, while others joy forever. And how many are taught by this world's religions that Matt. 25:46 proves this. I have come to believe a man should consider all that is written in Scriptures and would present more evidence from God's Word to more clearly understand His Truth. My hope is only that a man considers "all" that is actually written on the subject.

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, "prepared for the devil and his angels":

So how does this work? Does the devil and it's angels die, then God raises them from the dead and they are given the right to the tree of life and have "put on immortality", and then thrown into this fire prepared for them?

I don't believe the Scriptures bear this doctrine out. satan was in the garden with Eve from the creation. Eve is dead, but satan isn't. In fact, according to what is written, satan and his angels have never died. There is not one place in the entire Bible that I can find, where it teaches that satan died. Not only was he alive at creation, but in Jesus time thousands of years later. And not only that, but when Jesus comes back, he is still alive. I believe the evidence shows that angels are immortal, including satan and his angels. While humans are not immortal as Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham, Peter, James and John, my Dad and my Mom are all still dead and will remain in that condition unto Jesus comes back and raises them from the dead. And if HE doesn't come back soon, I will also die. And I will die in hope that HE will raise me from the dead and give me rights to the Tree of Life, that I might "put forth my hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". As it is written.

In my understanding, this is why this "Fire" prepared as "punishment" for satan and his angels burns forever and ever, because they are immortal and cannot die, therefore, their punishment will never stop, the fire will never be quenched, the worm will never die. But for me, I am not immortal, both my body and soul can be destroyed, at least according to the Jesus "of the bible".

Jesus has already told us the fate that awaits immortal angels that sinned, which is the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire, specifically prepared for them..

But of Mortal Humans, Jesus said: Luke 3: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 8: 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall "die in your sins": for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall "die" in your sins.

Immortal satan and his immortal angels that reject Gods Words, with forever "Live" in their sins in the Lake of Fire prepared for them.

But mortal humans that reject God's Words, will die in their sins. They will be destroyed permanently.

2 Thess. 1: 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with "everlasting destruction" from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So given all these Word's of the Christ, and a lot more that I didn't post because I don't want to write a book about it, given there is already one written, I believe everything Jesus teaches, including the verses below where HE tells us where unrepentant mortal humans are destroyed.

Matt. 25: 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into "life" eternal.

Matt. 13: 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; "so shall it be" in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

To believe the popular religious philosophy being promoted, I would have to ignore so much of the Holy scriptures, I would have to believe that all humans are raised from the dead, given the right to ""put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever", only to be cast into the Lake of Fire with immortal angels.

While I agree that "The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, " prepared for the devil and his angels:", according to His Own Words, "awaits Satan and sinners alike". It is clear that this eternal punishment will destroy the mortal human that is cast into it.

Because the wages of sin is "Death" for mortal humans who are cast into the fire of eternal punishment, prepared for the immortal angels.

 

[Jerry N.]

I understand how widespread the belief is that human souls are immortal. That every human is raised from the dead unto Eternal Life, and some burn forever, while others joy forever. And how many are taught by this world's religions that Matt. 25:46 proves this. I have come to believe a man should consider all that is written in Scriptures and would present more evidence from God's Word to more clearly understand His Truth. My hope is only that a man considers "all" that is actually written on the subject.

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, "prepared for the devil and his angels":

So how does this work? Does the devil and it's angels die, then God raises them from the dead and they are given the right to the tree of life and have "put on immortality", and then thrown into this fire prepared for them?

I don't believe the Scriptures bear this doctrine out. satan was in the garden with Eve from the creation. Eve is dead, but satan isn't. In fact, according to what is written, satan and his angels have never died. There is not one place in the entire Bible that I can find, where it teaches that satan died. Not only was he alive at creation, but in Jesus time thousands of years later. And not only that, but when Jesus comes back, he is still alive. I believe the evidence shows that angels are immortal, including satan and his angels. While humans are not immortal as Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham, Peter, James and John, my Dad and my Mom are all still dead and will remain in that condition unto Jesus comes back and raises them from the dead. And if HE doesn't come back soon, I will also die. And I will die in hope that HE will raise me from the dead and give me rights to the Tree of Life, that I might "put forth my hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". As it is written.

In my understanding, this is why this "Fire" prepared as "punishment" for satan and his angels burns forever and ever, because they are immortal and cannot die, therefore, their punishment will never stop, the fire will never be quenched, the worm will never die. But for me, I am not immortal, both my body and soul can be destroyed, at least according to the Jesus "of the bible".

Jesus has already told us the fate that awaits immortal angels that sinned, which is the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire, specifically prepared for them..

But of Mortal Humans, Jesus said: Luke 3: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 8: 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall "die in your sins": for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall "die" in your sins.

Immortal satan and his immortal angels that reject Gods Words, with forever "Live" in their sins in the Lake of Fire prepared for them.

But mortal humans that reject God's Words, will die in their sins. They will be destroyed permanently.

2 Thess. 1: 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with "everlasting destruction" from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So given all these Word's of the Christ, and a lot more that I didn't post because I don't want to write a book about it, given there is already one written, I believe everything Jesus teaches, including the verses below where HE tells us where unrepentant mortal humans are destroyed.

Matt. 25: 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into "life" eternal.

Matt. 13: 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; "so shall it be" in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

To believe the popular religious philosophy being promoted, I would have to ignore so much of the Holy scriptures, I would have to believe that all humans are raised from the dead, given the right to ""put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever", only to be cast into the Lake of Fire with immortal angels.

While I agree that "The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, " prepared for the devil and his angels:", according to His Own Words, "awaits Satan and sinners alike". It is clear that this eternal punishment will destroy the mortal human that is cast into it.

Because the wages of sin is "Death" for mortal humans who are cast into the fire of eternal punishment, prepared for the immortal angels.

Thank you for responding to my post. I certainly hope you are correct, but what do you make of Daniel 12:2--And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for responding to my post. I certainly hope you are correct, but what do you make of Daniel 12:2--And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan. 12: 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting "life", and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, is "Contempt" from the Everlasting "Eternal Life"? Are these not opposites here?

Gehenna was a dump outside of the City of David, in the Valley of Hinnom, where Jerusalem burned all of it's trash. Jesus spoke of this several times. What greater shame is there, than to be cast out into a dump by God, prepared for the immortal angels, that burns the trash. Jesus quoted Daniel in the verse you posted.

So the arguments are the same.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure "in the death" of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Heb. 6: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of "eternal judgment."

So according to Scriptures, what is the "Eternal Judgment" for immortal satan and his immortal angels? They are cast into the burning dump that burns forever, because satan and his angels are immortal, therefore, their eternal punishment can never stop, and it will continue even after all the other refuse is burned.

What is the "Eternal Judgment" for mortal humans? A second "DEATH", not Life. Is it not to be cast into this same dump that burns forever with the other Tares? Will mortal humans not be destroyed with "Everlasting destruction"? Is it not Death, "Everlasting"?

Where is the teaching found that God grants unrepentant sinners eternal life? Where is it written that EVERYONE is raised from the dead, and given the Right to the Tree of Life, that they all can "put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" in the eternal punishment prepared for satan and his immortal angels?

I get that the tradition is an old one, and quite popular with this world's religious system. But if a man considers ALL that is written, it becomes clear, at least to me, that God doesn't raise His creation from the dead, that "chose death over Life", only to force immortality on them, then tortures them along with immortal satan and his angels, that God Himself placed into this world, for ever and ever and eternity.

It's a great study though, and one that is good for men seeking God's Righteousness to engage in, in my view.

 

[Jerry N.]

Dan. 12: 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting "life", and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, is "Contempt" from the Everlasting "Eternal Life"? Are these not opposites here?

Gehenna was a dump outside of the City of David, in the Valley of Hinnom, where Jerusalem burned all of it's trash. Jesus spoke of this several times. What greater shame is there, than to be cast out into a dump by God, prepared for the immortal angels, that burns the trash. Jesus quoted Daniel in the verse you posted.

So the arguments are the same.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure "in the death" of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Heb. 6: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of "eternal judgment."

So according to Scriptures, what is the "Eternal Judgment" for immortal satan and his immortal angels? They are cast into the burning dump that burns forever, because satan and his angels are immortal, therefore, their eternal punishment can never stop, and it will continue even after all the other refuse is burned.

What is the "Eternal Judgment" for mortal humans? A second "DEATH", not Life. Is it not to be cast into this same dump that burns forever with the other Tares? Will mortal humans not be destroyed with "Everlasting destruction"? Is it not Death, "Everlasting"?

Where is the teaching found that God grants unrepentant sinners eternal life? Where is it written that EVERYONE is raised from the dead, and given the Right to the Tree of Life, that they all can "put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" in the eternal punishment prepared for satan and his immortal angels?

I get that the tradition is an old one, and quite popular with this world's religious system. But if a man considers ALL that is written, it becomes clear, at least to me, that God doesn't raise His creation from the dead, that "chose death over Life", only to force immortality on them, then tortures them along with immortal satan and his angels, that God Himself placed into this world, for ever and ever and eternity.

It's a great study though, and one that is good for men seeking God's Righteousness to engage in, in my view.

That is very interesting. I have to think about this for a while, and I’ll probably get back to you tomorrow. I hope that somebody more knowledgeable than me will comment. God can do whatever He likes, and He can destroy a soul that He has made. I’m not fully convinced. However, the destruction of the soul is probably worse than the destruction of the body, even if the destruction does not take eternity.

 

[jonojim1337]

One doesn’t have to exclude the other. I think there is room for both a continued existence and some form of rebirth, or return to the earth.

 

[Jerry N.]

One doesn’t have to exclude the other. I think there is room for both a continued existence and some form of rebirth, or return to the earth.

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Egyptian mythology probably doesn’t help much. However, I believe that we have three parts—body, soul, and spirit. The spirit is the spark of life, and the soul is our individuality. It seems that animals only have two parts, body and spirit, but one can’t doubt that animals have individual personalities. Maybe the spirit and soul are one, like many people believe. In spiritual death, the spirit and soul would return to God and “reused” for other creatures. It might be silly, but I can see that it might make some sense. Spiritual death would then be the destruction of the personality and the spirit of life would return to God, but He doesn’t need it. Anyhow, spiritual death might be more complex than we think. I appreciate the large texts, because my eyes are not great, but I wonder why.