Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I know I am no better than any unsaved person anywhere, and before assuming that I have such a high regard for myself that I think my own opinion on my salvation status is so important, perhaps I should tell you it is Jesus that knows if I am "saved", not me. As I mentioned earlier, I am not God.

But you're pretty sure Jesus isn't saving a whole lot of other sinners just like you. Got it.

All I can see here is Noah, ark, all those people who drowned, Tower of Babel, pulled down and we are all parted from each other, the incarnation, the Crucifixion, what need could there have been for these events if no one needed to be reconciled to God,

Uh, obviously there is a lot of judgments going on within the masses, ala Eph. 6:12. And we are all, every last one of us, engaged in that wrestling match. And guess what? We ALL lost the match. Not a single one of us made ourselves sinless. No, not one. That's why we (and everyone else) can only be saved by the unmerited Mercy and Grace of God in Christ.

what was the curse in Genesis?

Mark 4:15 happened to both Adam and Eve immediately after God spoke to them. From that point on it was no longer a question of just Adam or just Eve. It was Adam, Eve and the tempter within who stole from them.

God said to the serpent: BECAUSE THOU HAS DONE THIS

DId you miss that part?

What are the two angels doing blocking the entance to Eden doing there?

The serpents within mankind are permanent blocked out of the mercy seat by the wings of the cherubims, similar to what was in the ark, and we are all carriers of the tempter in our own flesh. The flaming sword turns every way, again similar to the flaming Sword from the mouth of Jesus. So there is no getting past for any reasonings. Romans 7:17-25, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14,

Nevertheless man shall LIVE by every Word of God. Even if we DIE from the Sword. Col. 3:3 shows we are technically dead, and our life, HID in Christ. It would be too much to handle in this body anyway.

 

[RamiC]

But you're pretty sure Jesus isn't saving a whole lot of other sinners just like you. Got it.

You are not very good at reading my mind. No, I do not know the numbers, a "whole lot of" or not. I am very sure that we do not need to worry about His judgement being unfair on anyone. Our own is messed up, His is not.

 

[JulieB67]

Ah, but you see you ONLY see the above with an external physical eye, which has nothing to do with what's really going on INSIDE.

We do engage a world that can not be seen with adversaries that can not be seen. Would you agree?

IF so then I'd suggest to get off the flesh sight page and get on with a real close look, inside

As usual you continue to ignore scripture and sidestep.

 

[Hentenza]

It is only simple in your mind because of the methodology you've been led to employ, which is to strike out any verse that doesn't fit your positions. It's quite common. Freewillers only see freewill texts. Determinists only see determinist texts. And on it goes, slicing and dicing and cutting out or tossing aside everything that doesn't fit the mold.

Although there is some truth here the major problem I see with your interpretation methodology is that you introduce tremendous tension in scripture. You believe that each verse stands by itself rather than as a part of the collection we call the Bible. The Bible needs to be interpreted as a whole and the message needs to be consistent. You introduce inconsistency to the word of God by claiming that one verse in isolation trumps context and the authors overall message and intent. I am not striking out any of your verses but merely putting them in the proper context and message. This is why is so simple to refute the UR argument because the interpretation of the cherry picked verses are out of context to the rest of the book and/or chapter.

Let me give you an example from a simple verse.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Positive statement. Believe and you are saved. Common message supported all over the Bible.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who [does not] believes in Him will perish, but [will not] have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Negative statement. Dont believe and no eternal life. Common message supported all over the Bible.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who [does not] believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Statement not ever found in scripture.

So the message is clear. Believe in the way of faith in the redemptive sacrifice of Christ is necessary to obtain an eternal life. If you don’t agree with this then refute it.

On the other hand, you know how this works. Every Word of God applies to EVERYONE. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 and Deut 8:3- absolutely but this does not mean that a verse in an island without context follows God’s message and intention. These verses do not support your out of context argument. In fact, you take the word of God put it in tension against itself. This, of course, distorts the message.

Also, if you apply your argument to all of scripture then you have to agree that Rev. 21:8 is also the word of God. But you ignore this verse and never quote it. Why is that? Do you think that this verse agrees with UR? Maybe you should do like Thomas Jefferson and rip out the parts of the Bible that you don’t like.

Most positions can't seem to get there. Quite an interesting phenomena.

God says: Love your neighbors

The near entirety of the masses read: Burn my unbelieving neighbors alive forever

Funny how that works, ain't it? Put up a law, any law, and people become almost instantly LAWLESS. But when you see that people, even believers, are still under the thumb of the DEVIL in "our" own sorry collective hides, not so strange at all. Predictable even.


What makes you think that this statement needs "interpretation?"

Because your interpretation blames God for His actions. Love goes both ways. God loves everyone but not everyone loves God or their neighbor. The devil is certainly involved spreading evil among us but I find the devil to be almost comical. The devil has already been defeated and only awaits eschatological times to be totally removed. As long as we remain in Christ He is faithful and protects us from evil.

There are multiple soteriology theories that can be explored and broken down for study. Some have biblical merit while some do not. UR is one of those that do not.

When John the Apostle states: everyone who loves knows God and is born of God, there is no modifications required. It says what it says.

Right and the operation words here are “everyone who loves”. Not everyone loves. Those that reject God do not love God so how can they possibly be born of God? Do you think that God is going to force them to love Him? Your conclusion here does not follow.

Your positional interpretation MUST modify a clear statement because if not, your positions fall apart. I say rightfully so. Fall apart. John says what he says. Jesus said no differently. God is Love. We ALL have One Father, God. Matt. 23:9. This is not rocket science.

So refute my argument.

I know full well where your position is: It has zero accounting for the CAPTIVITY OF MANKIND, and I include even my own sorry hide in that group, because we ALL are still subject to the tempter, internally.

Nah. You don’t give Christ enough credit.

IF and WHEN your positions ever factor that in (for yourself) your positions will rightfully change and you might actually end up loving your neighbors. Imagine that?

I love my neighbor. In fact I love my neighbor so much that I want to bring the gospel of good news to them so that they can feel the tremendous love of Christ. You, on the other hand, dont love your neighbor because it does not matter if they believe or not since all will be saved at the end.

Thinking they'll burn alive forever is quite a heavy mental burden, particularly over time. It will drag the carriers down and down, into open lying hypocrisy, thinking "I am better than them." Happens to most.

Then all they have to do is believe. Bring them the gospel so they can find Christ.

But even these serve God's Purposes in judgments of the devil and his messengers.

If you say so.

 

[Studyman]

According to the bible, God is perfectly holy. He is not a human being punishing another human being. We have all broken God's commandments, and deserve only His wrath and punishment. Yes, He is also a God of grace, which is why He sent a Saviour, so that sinners believing in Him could be saved from their deserved punishment. Merely ceasing to exist wouldn't be punishment, certainly not the "everlasting punishment" Jesus spoke about in Matthew 25:46. If one ceases to exist, one cannot experience everlasting punishment.

What is more important than "existing"? The only reason you have a voice, is because God gave you the incredible gift of "existing". There is no joy, no beauty, no holding a child or grandchild, no Love, no heat, no cold, no nothing without existence. No beginning, no end, no growth, no failures, everything you are, all your memories and experiences, are only possible because of God's incredible gift of allowing you to exist.

I am quite certain when men are raised unto life after they died, in most cases clinging to their existence with all their might right to the end, and see that there was eternal existence offered to them, that they saw it, and understood the conditions placed on it, but they rejected it. To know that it was right there in front of them, right in their own hands, but they rejected it to feed some temporary foolish lust of their own flesh. There is no doubt that men will be angry, and will gnash their teeth. When they see that they were warned over and over and over and over and over, but they were so self exalted and greedy to live after the imaginations of their own heart, that they through the chances at eternal existence away. And now there are no other chances, no path to continued existence. Jesus gives a little glimpse into this Judgment concerning many "Christians" in Matt. 7, of their reaction to this reality.

But Jesus, don't you know who we are? We created massive religious businesses and shrines of worship "in your Name". Look at all the stuff we gave you the credit for? But in the end, it still boils down to whether or not a man Glorifies God, "As God" in their existence HE gave them.

The prospect of dying again, only this time it is an Everlasting death, a death from which there is no return. No chance at eating from the Tree of Life, EVER. That's a pretty massive punishment in my view.

 

[RamiC]

God is about love and forgiveness. I refuse to believe he would allow such a place like hell to exist, let alone send people there for mistakes.

Sin and mistake are not the same thing. Sin seperates people from God, but sin must be a willfully made choice, it is freely made choices that make the difference, not mistakes. However, if I make a mistake and it hurts someone, I say sorry. God accepts apologies, and forgives.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

What is more important than "existing"? The only reason you have a voice, is because God gave you the incredible gift of "existing". There is no joy, no beauty, no holding a child or grandchild, no Love, no heat, no cold, no nothing without existence. No beginning, no end, no growth, no failures, everything you are, all your memories and experiences, are only possible because of God's incredible gift of allowing you to exist.

I am quite certain when men are raised unto life after they died, in most cases clinging to their existence with all their might right to the end, and see that there was eternal existence offered to them, that they saw it, and understood the conditions placed on it, but they rejected it. To know that it was right there in front of them, right in their own hands, but they rejected it to feed some temporary foolish lust of their own flesh. There is no doubt that men will be angry, and will gnash their teeth. When they see that they were warned over and over and over and over and over, but they were so self exalted and greedy to live after the imaginations of their own heart, that they through the chances at eternal existence away. And now there are no other chances, no path to continued existence. Jesus gives a little glimpse into this Judgment concerning many "Christians" in Matt. 7, of their reaction to this reality.

But Jesus, don't you know who we are? We created massive religious businesses and shrines of worship "in your Name". Look at all the stuff we gave you the credit for? But in the end, it still boils down to whether or not a man Glorifies God, "As God" in their existence HE gave them.

The prospect of dying again, only this time it is an Everlasting death, a death from which there is no return. No chance at eating from the Tree of Life, EVER. That's a pretty massive punishment in my view.

Your thoughts are well developed enough to cause anyone, like David Lamb to whom you replied, to see there can be, to use your own words, “a pretty massive punishment” being applied without having to keep someone alive in ECT without any hope of escape. Yet for some, nothing short of unending ECT, of which they themselves may partake, will do.

Edit: I could be wrong but you may want to clarify your position. I take your post to mean your current position on those who die in their sins without faith to mean they die an eternal death, that is, to no longer exist. I say this because your post received a “like” from our brother Hentenza whose position is the same as David Lambs. Perhaps maybe brother Hentenza was looking liking your post for a different reason? Just an observation …

 

[Studyman]

Your thoughts are well developed enough to cause anyone, like David Lamb to whom you replied, to see there can be, to use your own words, “a pretty massive punishment” being applied without having to keep someone alive in ECT without any hope of escape. Yet for some, nothing short of unending ECT, of which they themselves may partake, will do.

It is true that this world's religious system does promote the popular tradition that God raises the dead, all of them, let's them all eat of the Tree of Life, then for some, they spend eternal life in Paradise with God, and for others they are tortured in a lake of fire with satan and demons for eternity.

But for me, it's a matter of what is actually written in the Holy scriptures. Adam and Eve were not given to eat of the Tree of Life in their beginning, and are dead still, no doubt, and truly they will be raised from the dead at some point, according to Scriptures. Those mentioned in Revelation 20 that were also raised from the dead, therefore they too, had not yet been given to eat of the Tree of Life, or else they wouldn't need to be raised from the Dead.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may "have right to the tree of life", and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Did Adam and Eve repent, like Noah and Abraham, and turn to God? We don't know because God didn't tell us. We do know that they, along with Abraham and Noah had not yet eaten of the Tree of Life, and as a result, they will remain dead until God raises them, which HE promised to for everyone.

The teaching that God gives all men, regardless of their life's choices, the "Right to the Tree of Life", that they may eat and live forever, some in eternal torture, some in eternal glory, isn't taught anywhere in Scriptures. But a second death, a "death everlasting", that is, a death from which there is no return, no resurrection, no right to the Tree of Life", is taught in scriptures.

It all boils down to the "Simplicity of Christ", in my view. Do we Trust the Word of God, or the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in?

 

[Studyman]

Edit: I could be wrong but you may want to clarify your position. I take your post to mean your current position on those who die in their sins without faith to mean they die an eternal death, that is, to no longer exist. I say this because your post received a “like” from our brother Hentenza whose position is the same as David Lambs. Perhaps maybe brother Hentenza was looking liking your post for a different reason? Just an observation …

In my understanding, since I have separated myself frown this world's religious system and the philosophies it promotes, there are many false teachings that exist in this world God placed you and I in. The whole "eternal life for humans in torture" is only one. It's not uncommon at all for different religious sects of this world believing and promoting different doctrines, some of them even true. For me, I didn't believe "everything" promoted by any religious sect. But I was still deceived into believing some of them. Even the religious sect of the Pharisees, perhaps the most popular religious sect of this world religious system of that time, who Jesus said were children of the devil, believed some of God's Teaching, but omitted some very important Word's of God, as it is written.

I think this is why Jesus said "Man shall Live By Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Which makes sense. If God gives me instruction to build a house, and I follow only SOME of the instructions, even though I obeyed a little, the entire house is corrupted and will not stand.

Perhaps Hentenza has already looked into the whole "every soul is immortal" foolishness and discerned it as we have. Perhaps he will be encouraged to discern other poplar religious philosophies, and therefore "grow" in the knowledge of God.

That would be my hope for everyone, even for me because God is still revealing to me the darkness that surrounded me, that I had loved for so long. Knowing it exists, even if men can't always see it, I Seek God's Truth through the Light of the Gospel, for the very purpose, that my deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (And not man)