Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I am not God, I cannot keep anyone out of heaven, I do not have the key.

Yes, I've heard that story before: Not me, but God.

No, it's just you, kind of. In light of Mark 4:15 I wouldn't even say it's you

Jesus saves those who ask to be saved, and mean it.

Oh, you mean God is only "contingent" upon man? Is that for real?

God can't save enemies of the Gospel? Are you sure? Romans 11:26-32 shows otherwise.

He does not force those who do not wish to go.

Don't you know that people are slaves to our adversary? Who says that's only their decision when there's another party in this deal? Why doesn't your position have a factor for blinded slaves, you know, like you and i were prior to? Eph. 2:2

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The issue is relying on out of context verses to make a theology.

As opposed to your methodology using verses to eliminate ALL the multiple verses that don't fit your position?

Take 1 John 4:7 for example. Look at what comes after:

What makes you think the statement of 1 John 4:7 is eliminated by what comes after?

Only those that confess Jesus is the Son of God remain in God’s love.

What makes you think you can draw a line between God and Love? You think Love requires some contrived doctrine attached to make Love valid? I don't think so.

lol I hold no formulas and me, a tiny created being, can never make an infinite being contingent. Think about what you are saying. This is an emotional fallacy.

Tiny created you just make the God of all creation completely worthless for anyone unless "that tiny little person" makes God valid. It's kind of an absurd claim, don't you think? I'd much rather say people can NOT believe unless the God of all creation lets them. But I know that's not the eternal case either. Once people are removed out from under their captor, the DEVIL, then all will believe. Some see sooner is all. Don't ask me why. Wasn't my call.

No one has an excuse.

So, just to be clear, everyone born prior to Christ, everyone who never heard the Gospel, all mentally challenged people, and hey, maybe toss in the kids in for the eternal torch. You're writing all these off?

Do we have to revisit enemies of the Gospel being saved in Romans 11:26-32?

The Bible CLEARLY teaches that faith is necessary for salvation. There is no wiggle room here but God does as He wills.

Trying to play it both ways above doesn't work.

I've cited 1 John 4:7 showing everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. I've even asked you if you have ever actually felt that warmth in your own heart when loving someone or doing good acts. I think it's universal to every person who's ever lived. I've cited Romans 11:26-32 showing even enemies of the Gospel being saved. I've cited Jesus being the Savior of the world, state multiple places in scripture. I've even cited FAITH works through LOVE which means anyone who LOVES has FAITH, Gal. 5:6. Yet you insist on some specific methodology to eliminate all of these things, as if God can only be moved via recitation of some 1 - 4 step specific recitation like some form of magic formula, but only if you really believe in that magic formula.

The difference is that those in Christ have been justified and cleansed of all sin through Christ sacrifice while those that are not in Christ remain in their sins. Big difference here.

Well, if you think you're sinless that's a whole nuther can O heretic worms.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You do realize that verse and those above it are not talking about Satan and his devils right? They are talking about those that take the mark and worship the beast.

What makes you think it's not the devil and his messengers?

Either of us can take Rev. 14:8 and march it directly over to Rev. 18:2 and figure out exactly to WHOM "they" refer to, who are being tormented

And once again, Christ is very clear about the second death. And I will certainly take his word over yours.

Once the Lake of Fire has served it's purpose it will cease to exist. It will be a "former thing" and afterwards Christ will make all things new.

I've said many times I have no issues with either the permanent termination of the devil and his messengers or their permanent setting aside in the LoF.

For your loved ones, family and neighbors who don't happen to believe like you having the same fate? Not a chance I'd buy that story when there is such an OBVIOUS enemy to observe that is not them, who also happened to be OUR CAPTOR too, prior to. Eph. 2:2

 

[JulieB67]

What makes you think it's not the devil and his messengers?

It's not about them worshipping themselves, that's nonsense. Have you not read the entire book of Revelation? It's about those that worship them and take the mark, etc. When they are cast down it's by the wonders they produce that they are able to deceive the world. All those whose names are not written in the book of life will worship him. That's biblical.

For your loved ones, family and neighbors who don't happen to believe like you having the same fate?

We are talking about people that actually don't want to have anything to do with God. They would rather go the way of Satan. Sadly, the people that even choose to follow him at the end is said to be as the sand of the sea. They have no desire to repent. (as we see in Revelation) God certainly wants them to. That's why he's so long suffering.

And since we know for a fact that Satan and his angels are not in the book of life -this verse does not refer to them


Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[RamiC]

Yes, I've heard that story before: Not me, but God.

It is not a story. I really am not God.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It is not a story. I really am not God.

Yes, but you certainly claim to be dead set on a position you claim to be from God, that technically doesn't even exist in the entirety of the Bible

You do realize that there is not one named example of any person in hell now or in the future? Do you know this?

One might think if said "doctrine" of people burning alive forever would be deserving of at least ONE named example?

Do you realize that there is not even ONE named person even threatened with such a fate in the entirety of the Bible?

Don't bother citing the same old scriptures without a named person being attached. I think we'd both agree that the devil and his messengers are slated for that fate and actually perceiving that we all have internal temptations of the TEMPTER we can easily apply those scriptures to our own faces and it would NOT be directed to us, but to our adversary. A complex thought, I know. Since you will encounter your own adversary in processing the information and most of the time the adversary will WIN.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It's not about them worshipping themselves, that's nonsense. Have you not read the entire book of Revelation?

Many times. Even read the whole thing out loud for the supposed blessing. Have you?

It's about those that worship them and take the mark, etc. When they are cast down it's by the wonders they produce that they are able to deceive the world. All those whose names are not written in the book of life will worship him. That's biblical.

Ah, but you see you ONLY see the above with an external physical eye, which has nothing to do with what's really going on INSIDE.

We do engage a world that can not be seen with adversaries that can not be seen. Would you agree?

IF so then I'd suggest to get off the flesh sight page and get on with a real close look, inside

We are talking about people that actually don't want to have anything to do with God. They would rather go the way of Satan.

In your flesh eyes God is completely incapable of freeing the captives and you give zero credence to the ability of the CAPTOR a very real UNSEEN captor, and you just lay it all on the slaves of Satan. Even though the vast majority of them have no clue of their status. Just like we didn't when we didn't know. See Eph. 2:2 for a reminder of WHOM we were divided from.

Sadly, the people that even choose to follow him at the end is said to be as the sand of the sea. They have no desire to repent. (as we see in Revelation) God certainly wants them to. That's why he's so long suffering.

Your God is only effective upon a choice and can do nothing without said choice, which places God solely at the WHIM of the chooser, which is why such proclamations are so lame and weak.

The trumpet of the Gospel is that God saves the captives and condemns their CAPTORS. And no one will have one little toot to the contrary about at the end. IF they toot contrary now it's not even the person tooting it. It's the enemy in them.

 

[Hentenza]

As opposed to your methodology using verses to eliminate ALL the multiple verses that don't fit your position?

Do you even know what hermeneutics is? You use verses completely out of context which is why is so simple to refute your position.

What makes you think the statement of 1 John 4:7 is eliminated by what comes after?

Is not eliminated, the meaning and interpretation is clarified. Verses are not read and interpreted in an island.

What makes you think you can draw a line between God and Love? You think Love requires some contrived doctrine attached to make Love valid? I don't think so.

I’m not the one drawing a line it is you drawing the line and teaching a false doctrine devoid of biblical backing. You make things up as you go.

Tiny created you just make the God of all creation completely worthless for anyone unless "that tiny little person" makes God valid.

This is a perfect example of your inability to have a civil conversation. I’m not wasting my time any longer.

 

[RamiC]

Yes, but you certainly claim to be dead set on a position you claim to be from God, that technically doesn't even exist in the entirety of the Bible

God as the impeccable judge who does not get His perceptions wrong, unlike human beings including myself, exists way beyond the Bible, that God is this way is part of the reality of life and the universe (which is His creation). God is the author of the Bible, the contents of which were agreed by early Christians as an accurate collection of books to convey the truths which they shared belief in. God has been perfectly aware of each persons heart for Him or lack thereof since long before there was a Bible.

of people burning alive forever would be deserving of at least ONE named example?

My usual working definition of "hell" is "a state of seperation from God", which I am certain exists, because with that as the definition, I have been there. We can confess to our sin, repent and let Jesus know we wish to know Him and serve Him, and that will free us from such a state.

I believe the statements I have made here are fairly widespread belief among Christians, I may have used different terminology than some would, but I am pretty sure I am not expressing any odd or alternative version of the Bible based faith.

 

[Jipsah]

“No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.””

per·ish
/ˈperiSH/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...2ahUKEwjRpLfTmImQAxULRjABHfb5FrYQ3eEDegQILxAO
verb

1. suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
   "a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
   
   

 

[Jipsah]

God’s “will” will always prevail.

1 Timothy 3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Jipsah]

God can save everyone if He wishes

He is omnipotent.

 

[Hentenza]

per·ish
/ˈperiSH/
Google Search
verb

1. suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
   "a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
   

a. of persons;
α. properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.; ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐν μαχαίρᾳ, Matthew 26:52; καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ’ οὐκ ἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9.
β. tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 [R L brackets], John 3:16; John 10:28; 17:12 (it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σωζόμενοι they to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (on these present participles, cf. Winers Grammar, 342 (321); Buttmann, 206 (178)).

 

[Hentenza]

1 Timothy 3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But they need to come to repentance.

“I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”

bible.com

 

[Hentenza]

He is omnipotent.

Sure is.

 

[rockytopva]

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding...
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. - Job 38

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Do you even know what hermeneutics is? You use verses completely out of context which is why is so simple to refute your position.

It is only simple in your mind because of the methodology you've been led to employ, which is to strike out any verse that doesn't fit your positions. It's quite common. Freewillers only see freewill texts. Determinists only see determinist texts. And on it goes, slicing and dicing and cutting out or tossing aside everything that doesn't fit the mold.

On the other hand, you know how this works. Every Word of God applies to EVERYONE. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Most positions can't seem to get there. Quite an interesting phenomena.

God says: Love your neighbors

The near entirety of the masses read: Burn my unbelieving neighbors alive forever

Funny how that works, ain't it? Put up a law, any law, and people become almost instantly LAWLESS. But when you see that people, even believers, are still under the thumb of the DEVIL in "our" own sorry collective hides, not so strange at all. Predictable even.

Is not eliminated, the meaning and interpretation is clarified. Verses are not read and interpreted in an island.

What makes you think that this statement needs "interpretation?"

When John the Apostle states: everyone who loves knows God and is born of God, there is no modifications required. It says what it says.

Your positional interpretation MUST modify a clear statement because if not, your positions fall apart. I say rightfully so. Fall apart. John says what he says. Jesus said no differently. God is Love. We ALL have One Father, God. Matt. 23:9. This is not rocket science.

I know full well where your position is: It has zero accounting for the CAPTIVITY OF MANKIND, and I include even my own sorry hide in that group, because we ALL are still subject to the tempter, internally.

IF and WHEN your positions ever factor that in (for yourself) your positions will rightfully change and you might actually end up loving your neighbors. Imagine that?

Thinking they'll burn alive forever is quite a heavy mental burden, particularly over time. It will drag the carriers down and down, into open lying hypocrisy, thinking "I am better than them." Happens to most.

But even these serve God's Purposes in judgments of the devil and his messengers.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God as the impeccable judge who does not get His perceptions wrong, unlike human beings including myself, exists way beyond the Bible, that God is this way is part of the reality of life and the universe (which is His creation). God is the author of the Bible, the contents of which were agreed by early Christians as an accurate collection of books to convey the truths which they shared belief in. God has been perfectly aware of each persons heart for Him or lack thereof since long before there was a Bible.

Since you appear to have a somewhat high regard of God, rightfully so, do you think it's possible that God could actually be the Savior of the world? Not just some wannabe?

And just so we're clear we ALL have already been quite thoroughly judged as SINNERS, been found guilty. That part was settled on day 1 of mankind and has extended to every person since other than God in Christ.

Perhaps you think yourself better than your unsaved neighbors? You know, like the pharisee in Luke 18?

My usual working definition of "hell" is "a state of seperation from God", which I am certain exists,

Well, that's disappointing. Here I thought you viewed God as "Omnipresent" since it sounded like you had a high regard for God. IF you think God is "Omnipresent" how do you think some supposed place in creation slipped out from under His Thumb?

I might simply point to Rev. 14:10-11 and realize that the torment transpires in the "presence" of the Lamb. And this position is well and rightfully established by some of orthodoxy.

because with that as the definition, I have been there. We can confess to our sin, repent and let Jesus know we wish to know Him and serve Him, and that will free us from such a state.

The evil present, the tempter in no man, obeys the Lord. All have sin. Sin is of the devil. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:21, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8

You and I and everyone else are NOT sinless, ever.

I believe the statements I have made here are fairly widespread belief among Christians,

Uh, no, they are not. See above.

I will admit that there are very very few Christians that actually love their neighbors as themselves as "evidenced" by NOT thinking they will burn alive forever or be "eternally separated" from some NON omniscient NON omnipotent NON omnipresent God.

I may have used different terminology than some would, but I am pretty sure I am not expressing any odd or alternative version of the Bible based faith.

I'm pretty sure if I scratched and sniffed your positions they wouldn't smell right. We already opened a can O non omnipresent worms. Who knows what else is in there?

 

[RamiC]

It is only simple in your mind because of the methodology you've been led to employ

"Hermeneutics is the interpretation of various types of literature in the Bible, and addressing scripture in it's normal meaning, interpreting scripture historically, grammatically and contextually. The purpose of Hermeneutics is to prevent us from improperly applying scripture to a particular situation. Classification of text includes History, Poetry, Prophecy and Epistles." from here - Bibliology & Hermeneutics Statement of Purpose

 

[RamiC]

Perhaps you think yourself better than your unsaved neighbors? You know, like the pharisee in Luke 18?

I know I am no better than any unsaved person anywhere, and before assuming that I have such a high regard for myself that I think my own opinion on my salvation status is so important, perhaps I should tell you it is Jesus that knows if I am "saved", not me. As I mentioned earlier, I am not God.

Well, that's disappointing. Here I thought you viewed God as "Omnipresent" since it sounded like you had a high regard for God. IF you think God is "Omnipresent" how do you think some supposed place in creation slipped out from under His Thumb?

All I can see here is Noah, ark, all those people who drowned, Tower of Babel, pulled down and we are all parted from each other, the incarnation, the Crucifixion, what need could there have been for these events if no one needed to be reconciled to God, what was the curse in Genesis? What are the two angels doing blocking the entance to Eden doing there?

We can disobey God, omnipotence does not mean each person is forced to be near Him or that everything that is happening is what He wants.