Hell and a Moral God

[AvgJoe]

It is obvious that any further discussion will be pointless. It is true,

...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him...

but

...the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

and

...God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise...

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

because

...the foolishness of God is wiser than men: and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


I know that all of this is foolishness to you. I pray that someday you will understand the truth.

 

[Lucretius]

It is pointless. Proving the Bible being the Word of God by quoting the Bible is quite circular. It is a shame that this kind of barrier will always exist in a discussion on religion.

 

[Hands Open]

I have a book. It is called the book of me. The god of this book says that you cannot understand nor question him. He also states that anything an unbeliever says is wrong because the unbeliever simply can't understand god. No one can. The believer on the other hand, while quoting these scriptures does understand god. Somehow they have transcended logic so that noone can argue with them. When they find themselves proven wrong they revert to "Well you can't possibly understand."Well, my god says that you can't understand him either. But if you don't believe in him he will send you to hell.

I'd like to pass the offering bucket around once more.

 

[CheshireCat]

hell is a state of being away from God's grace. How does one get away from God's grace? Well you never really can be totally away from it because if you did you would cease to exist and God is loving and thusly would never do that. However, if the person chooses to distance themselves from God by choosing a sinful life, etc., then God is not punishing, but allowing the person to fufill their own desire, because He/She/It would never force anyone to love Him/Her/It.

uncornfuzzled now ?

 

[Charlie V]

There is no hell.

Christ is the savior of the world. John 4:42, 1 John 4:14.

Christ takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29

God does not keep His anger forever. Micah 7:18, Psalms 103:9

God is not willing to let any perish. 2 Peter 3:9

Christ will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth 1 Timothy 2:4

Christ will reconcile all things Collisians 1:20

Christ is good tidings to all people Luke 2:10

Christ forgives us while we are still sinners and do not know what we are doign Luke 23:34 Romans 5:8

Christ will draw all men to Him John 12:32

Christ is the ransom for all 1 Timothy 2:6

Christ justified life for all mankind. Romans 5:18

All shall see His salvation Luke 3:6 and others.

Everyone will come to the knowledge of the truth, 1 Timothy 2:4, believe in and worship God and Christ, to whom they will bow and confess, Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Phillipians 2:10-11, the belief and confession that Christ is Lord will be truthful and through the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 John 4:15, that confession will be proof of their salvation Romans 10:10, though not the cause of their salvation, which is by grace, not by works Romans 5:15 and others.

The total list of passages proving universal salvation is great.

As for "hell":

1. Hebrew Sheol=the grave.

2. Greek Hades=the grave.

3. Greek Gehenna=valley of Hinnom.

4. The parables (including Lazarus & the rich man and the goats and the sheep) have various interpretations which can be explored seperately, but when these are properly understood (and when Aionios, age during is properly translated in the case of Matthew 25) none of them support eternal torment in an unlimited hell.

5. Revelation and several of the gospel prophecies refers to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Jesus was clear that it would happen during the life of those present at the time, thus 70 AD fits the time line.

Charlie

 

[Lucretius]

hell is a state of being away from God's grace. How does one get away from God's grace? Well you never really can be totally away from it because if you did you would cease to exist and God is loving and thusly would never do that. However, if the person chooses to distance themselves from God by choosing a sinful life, etc., then God is not punishing, but allowing the person to fufill their own desire, because He/She/It would never force anyone to love Him/Her/It.

uncornfuzzled now ?

Uh… no one is allowed to leave hell, so if someone who didn't believe in God dies and then realizes there is a God; God will still send them to hell for an eternity for unbelef when now the unbeliever believes. That is perfect love?

 

[CheshireCat]

noooo if an atheist went to hell (which is a lot of the time unlikely) and found out that there was a God, then that athiest still didn't want God to be part of his or her life, and in so choosing decided to go to hell; God is too loving to force a being to love Him/Her/It and would thusly not force the person to come to heaven

yes of course Charlie V, God does forgive all things and loves us always; it is we who do the punishing in our choosing to be away from God

how about the people who don't ask for God's forgiveness and don't want it/wouldn't touch it with a ten foot stick? what about those who don't want God as a part of their life etc. etc. and who don't leave good and virtuous lives? They choose hell, the self-inflicted state of being as much as one can be away from God's grace, and God is too loving to force them to love Him/Her/It. Hence hell must exist.

 

[Lucretius]

You have to be baptized to be saved, it is in the bible… I'm not baptized, if I believed in God, but I wasn't baptized I would go to hell for eternity too…

 

[AvgJoe]

Uh… no one is allowed to leave hell, so if someone who didn't believe in God dies and then realizes there is a God; God will still send them to hell for an eternity for unbelef when now the unbeliever believes. That is perfect love?

Sorry, this life is all you've got to make that decision.

Hebrews 9:27(KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If you do not choose God, He will give you your desire...eternity away from Him. He's not going to drag you kicking and screaming into Heaven against you will.

 

[AvgJoe]

You have to be baptized to be saved, it is in the bible… I'm not baptized, if I believed in God, but I wasn't baptized I would go to hell for eternity too…

Some groups believe this but it is not true, its an unbiblical belief.

 

[Lucretius]

Some groups believe this but it is not true, its an unbiblical belief.

Unbiblical? Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Perhaps one could say that they didn't say if you ARENT baptized you will still be saved, but then why is baptism necessary in the first place if it isn't really a necessity to get into heaven?

 

[AvgJoe]

Unbiblical? Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Perhaps one could say that they didn't say if you ARENT baptized you will still be saved, but then why is baptism necessary in the first place if it isn't really a necessity to get into heaven?

Jesus gave the disciples some instructions just before He ascended back to heaven as recorded in Matthew 28:16-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." The word "teach" in verse 19 means to disciple or win the lost to Christ. After a person is saved, the second thing he is instructed to do is be baptized (verse 19). Since the beginning of the first church, believers have given evidence of their faith in Christ by being baptized in water. We mean a person is to be immersed under the water as a picture or symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

In the Bible, baptism always comes after a person has been saved. Baptism does not save you or keep you saved. It is an act of obedience to Christ and pictures what has already taken place in your heart. It describes our union with Christ as seen in Romans 6:3-5.

 

[Hands Open]

Sorry, this life is all you've got to make that decision.

Hebrews 9:27(KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If you do not choose God, He will give you your desire...eternity away from Him. He's not going to drag you kicking and screaming into Heaven against you will.

This is lunacy! What have you got that is any different from those who follow islamic tradition? Or those who are mormon? Or those who are jeweish? Or jahovas witness? NOTHING! You preach and preach and yet have no better reasons than blind faith, the same as the others religions and yet have the audacity to tout that all those who disagree or use their minds will burn forever in hell? I think the only reason you belive what you belive is because you are in a christian country. If you lived in china you'd be buddist at best. Get off your high horse and live by the good things taught in the bible but NEVER tell someone that they are in danger of burning forever in a hell that you can't prove past the fact that you belive it because the book you believe in says it.

 

[Lucretius]

Even so, a moral God will condemn someone to hell for merely questioning existence while on Earth (because REAL evidence, something human beings crave, can never prove a god in any way but transcendentally). I mean, if I die and I see DIRECT proof of a God, but he already sends me to hell for not believing; what kind of moral God does that?

 

[AvgJoe]

This is lunacy! What have you got that is any different from those who follow islamic tradition? Or those who are mormon? Or those who are jeweish? Or jahovas witness? NOTHING! You preach and preach and yet have no better reasons than blind faith, the same as the others religions and yet have the audacity to tout that all those who disagree or use their minds will burn forever in hell? I think the only reason you belive what you belive is because you are in a christian country. If you lived in china you'd be buddist at best. Get off your high horse and live by the good things taught in the bible but NEVER tell someone that they are in danger of burning forever in a hell that you can't prove past the fact that you belive it because the book you believe in says it.

If you do not believe, then why are you so angry? Your anger speaks volumes.

 

[Hands Open]

If you do not believe, then why are you so angry? Your anger speaks volumes.

As it should. I have witnessed hundreds upon hundreds of people who lives their lives in fear because of the ignorant preachings that I have seen so rampant on this site. Your apathy speaks volumes. Guilt is forever present because of a god that no one can prove. And all these christians who profess the love of god have no clue what it is that they are saying when they threaten this uprovable hell to the unbeliever. You're ****ing right I'm angry. And I will continue to be until someone shows me a reason to be otherwise. All you can say to me is that my anger speaks volumes but you have no answer for my statements. You are removed and calm yet you teach hell to everyone you meet.

How about this: You my friend are going to hell. And you're going there because my god says so. He declares that any who preach fear should be damned for all eternity whether they belived what they said or not.

You are no better than those you damn. Now take the time to check the plank in your own eye.

 

[AvgJoe]

Even so, a moral God will condemn someone to hell for merely questioning existence while on Earth (because REAL evidence, something human beings crave, can never prove a god in any way but transcendentally). I mean, if I die and I see DIRECT proof of a God, but he already sends me to hell for not believing; what kind of moral God does that?

The following links explain it better than I can:

http://www.biblestudyplanet.com/q36.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-and-god.html

 

[Hands Open]

The following links explain it better than I can:

http://www.biblestudyplanet.com/q36.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-and-god.html

How wonderful it is that you nail your own coffin with the words of others. But lets look at some of the ideas your friends take.

"but in the areas we don't understand we trust that God will do what is right because He is just and holy."

This one is famous by the way. It is translated into: "what I can't make sense out of I will simply ignore and credit it to the fact that I believe in something that knows better than me." Yet I will defend him to the end with endless reasons and proofs for his existance.

"God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot."

I belive I shattered this one already by stating that knowledge is gods to give. Conscience is no recourse. Knowledge is what we know.There is no need to doubt a god that has proof. The "little voice in our head" has caused many a man to murder, as to help an old lady across the street. If god wanted us to belive he would have given us sufficient reason to.


"Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world"

What a wonderful point. But it seems to ignore the fact that god created this world and had complete control over what would enter it or not enter it.


"It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area!"

Ah yes my favorite reasoning. How crazy for me to not belive in a god that has no more proof than Zeus. Yet I do not fear the judgement of Zeus. How about I create the god Timmy.

"It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Timmy and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area!"

Makes as much sense. And it shows that your friends need more tutoring in the ways of those who use reason.

 

[AvgJoe]

You are removed and calm yet you teach hell to everyone you meet.

I believe the title of this thread is Hell and a Moral God. What other subject would we be discussing?

You are no better than those you damn. Now take the time to check the plank in your own eye.

I do not have the power to damn anyone. That is God's place, and God's alone. And you are right, I am no better than you or anyone else in this world. I am a wretched sinner, who deserves to spend eternity in hell, that has been saved by God's amazing grace. You can have that too, so can Lucretius and anyone else in this world that wants it.

 

[AvgJoe]

This is lunacy! What have you got that is any different from those who follow islamic tradition? Or those who are mormon? Or those who are jeweish? Or jahovas witness? NOTHING! You preach and preach and yet have no better reasons than blind faith, the same as the others religions and yet have the audacity to tout that all those who disagree or use their minds will burn forever in hell? I think the only reason you belive what you belive is because you are in a christian country. If you lived in china you'd be buddist at best. Get off your high horse and live by the good things taught in the bible but NEVER tell someone that they are in danger of burning forever in a hell that you can't prove past the fact that you belive it because the book you believe in says it.

There are many religions in the world. They do not all teach the same thing. In fact, many of them contradict each other. So, they can't all be true and it cannot be said that each is a different path to God. What are we to say about all those other religions compared to Christianity? To get to the point, all of the religions are false.

If Jesus is who He said He was, God in flesh, then whatever He says is authoritative and true. He said that He was the way the truth in the life and that nobody comes to the father except through Him (John 14:6). Right there, we see that any other way, according to Jesus, is not true.

Christianity bases its truth and its doctrine on the word of God, the Bible. In the word of God, Jesus claims to be the only way. Since He performed many miracles, raised people from the dead, commanded a storm to be still and it obeyed, healed diseases, and rose from the dead Himself, then we are forced to face the reality of His words. Is what He said true or not? Either Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or He is Lord. No one else in history, except Jesus, has fulfilled detailed prophecies, performed many miracles before eyewitnesses, and risen from the dead. Jesus is unique.

For those of us who are Christians, we have trusted what Christ has said. We believe in what He said and did. Like it or not, Jesus is the one who said He was the only way. It is not the Christians who are being "narrow-minded." It is Jesus. Therefore, to say that other religions can be true means that Jesus is false. To say that there are other ways to God, also means that Jesus is false. This is what it comes down to. Either Jesus is who He said He was and what He said is true, or He is false. This is a choice you must make. To trust what He said or reject His words.