Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[JLB777]

Do you read the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) and then go to the Greek scriptures of the new covenant (new testament)?

They do not believe Jesus is the Lord God.

Most do not believe the New Covenant is in effect and is just for Israel and Judah.

Most think that they are under the law of Moses, except for sacrificing animals, as that is the only thing Jesus fulfilled.


These three major beliefs are most dangerous.

Just take a look in the Messianic section of this forum if you don't believe me.


JLB

 

[Ken Rank]

It was living out God's Judaism that incited the pharissees to want him dead. The rabinical teachings and the OT were that at odds with each other. The fact that so many of us calling ourselves Christians don't know that and many even oppose that understanding actually speaks volumes of how far from God's faith we are. I truly believe that if Jesus stepped into most of our churches we too would crucify Him.

There is no question for, at all, that what the faith looks like today is not even close to what it looked like in his day. That isn't to say that people today aren't saved or anything like that, but we are so far off-track that it truly is two religions. Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, he came to walk prophetically within an already established path. But, time and incrementalism has caused the ship to drift. My goal is not to rewrite the story but get back to the original intent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There is no question for, at all, that what the faith looks like today is not even close to what it looked like in his day. That isn't to say that people today aren't saved or anything like that, but we are so far off-track that it truly is two religions. Yeshua[The Lord Jesus Christ] did not come to create a new religion, he came to [establish a better covenant based on better promises than the covenant with Moses had] walk prophetically within an already established path. But, time and incrementalism has caused the ship to drift. My goal is not to rewrite the story but get back to the original intent.

How do you know that there no church today that worships like the first christians did? Saint Justin the martyr described christian worship in the middle of the second century and his description is very much like the worship one sees in the church today.

 

[Ken Rank]

They do not believe Jesus is the Lord God.

Not true at all... while many do fall into that category, most don't. But, cheery pick through 40,000+ denominations and sects of mainstream Christianity and we can make mainstream Christianity look pretty radical. Yeshua and YHWH are one and the same!

Most do not believe the New Covenant is in effect and is just for Israel and Judah.

Definitions. If I come in faith to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel, I believe that makes me part of Israel. This then stands in harmony with Paul saying I WAS a gentile and WAS an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel but am NOW a fellow citizen. At the least, we are like the "foreigners/strangers" who came out of Egypt with Israel. They were to be treated as if native born. They had the Torah given to them as well. And they assimilated into the tribes they traveled with making them as much "Israel" as "Israel."

Most think that they are under the law of Moses, except for sacrificing animals, as that is the only thing Jesud fulfilled

Again, definitions. You treat phrase "under the law" as one thing, when I know it to be an idiomatic phrase. The truth is, we are not under the law... we are not guilty, we are under grace...forgiven. As for fulfilled, like most Christians you treat this word as if it means "to bring an end to, abolish." So, let me show you what you definition does to Scripture:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (NIV)

Now here is that verse again, as you define fulfill:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to abolish them.

Because you force "fulfill" to mean "abolish," Matthew 5:17 literally contradicts itself.

These three major beliefs are most dangerous.

No, just misunderstood. Causing Scripture to stands at odds with itself is dangerous, which is what many mainstream teachings, do... unknowingly, but they do.

Just take a look in the Messianic section of this forum if you don't believe me.

To that, I have no doubt. This is a young immature movement that is not equipped to touch the holy thing without profaning it. These are people who have come from mainstream Christianity who have not been taught methods of exegesis, they have no training in linguistics and semiotics, they wouldn't know a "time period source" if it bit them in the rear.... and yet they are dealing with information that requires training... discipleship. So, they become a polarizing mess that alienates friends, family, and brethren over issues THEY THINK are paramount but that truly are minutia. Does God care if one says Yahweh and another says Yehovah while another says Lord? No... He seeks a pure heart aimed at HIM!

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I would wait and see if God has a plan here. These people in that forum (a place I have not gone yet, and probably won't because of how volatile I already know it is) do not represent the body of work nor some things that are happening that God is currently doing. They are too wrapped up changing the litmus test from fruit production to knowledge and they WILL answer for this! (To God)

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

How do you know that there no church today that worships like the first christians did? Saint Justin the martyr described christian worship in the middle of the second century and his description is very much like the worship one sees in the church today.

We define worship differently. The word in Hebrew is shachah, it means "to bend the knee, to bow." The idea is submission, we bend before the Lord, we bow before the Lord... we are submitting to the Lord... HE IS LORD. So all we do, our daily walk, our obedience, our reaching out to others, our study, our family life... on into how we interact at church... to the raising of hands... all we do while in submission to Him is part of worship.

To address your point... there were similarities and there still are. You're Catholic, right? Go to an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and watch. The incense, the holding up of the Word and veneration toward it... a few other rituals you do are directly tied to things that have been done in Synagogues or the Temple for a long long time. However, in some areas small changes, VERY SMALL at the time, were made that came in the form of decrees. To Martyr those changes weren't large enough to make note of, so to him things were "very much like" what had happened back then. Although Sunday worship, I will say, was not the majority position until after 134AD. Anyway... over time those small changes barely noticeable to a guy like Martyr become larger changes as time goes on. We replace the feasts with church instituted holidays some of which really are ex-pagan holy days given a new title and new face. The first century Christian still ate a biblically clean diet and to stop that a decree had to be passed that says we are not to eat the food of the Jews. Anyway... I have to run.... I have a study to get to.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

You keep repeating that mantra as if it says something about the covenant itself. Jesus is the High Priest of the New Covenant, not the High Priest of the Old Covenant.

I guess you don't recognize it as scripture....specifically something Paul repeatedly said to the Hebrews. I guess you would make fun of him too, so again I'm in good company with Paul. I'm happy to suffer ridicule for the sake of Jesus/Yeshua.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We define worship differently. The word in Hebrew is shachah, it means "to bend the knee, to bow." The idea is submission, we bend before the Lord, we bow before the Lord... we are submitting to the Lord... HE IS LORD.

Yeah, that is what I mean by worship too.

O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. ...
(Psalms 95:6-7a KJV)​

Saint Justin wrote:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.​

​

Is that like your manner of worship? Can you tell us what your meeting does when gathered for community worship?

So all we do, our daily walk, our obedience, our reaching out to others, our study, our family life... on into how we interact at church... to the raising of hands... all we do while in submission to Him is part of worship.

To address your point... there were similarities and there still are. You're Catholic, right? Go to an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and watch. The incense, the holding up of the Word and veneration toward it... a few other rituals you do are directly tied to things that have been done in Synagogues or the Temple for a long long time. However, in some areas small changes, VERY SMALL at the time, were made that came in the form of decrees. To Martyr those changes weren't large enough to make note of, so to him things were "very much like" what had happened back then. Although Sunday worship, I will say, was not the majority position until after 134AD. Anyway... over time those small changes barely noticeable to a guy like Martyr become larger changes as time goes on. We replace the feasts with church instituted holidays some of which really are ex-pagan holy days given a new title and new face. The first century Christian still ate a biblically clean diet and to stop that a decree had to be passed that says we are not to eat the food of the Jews. Anyway... I have to run.... I have a study to get to.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Steeno7]

I guess you don't recognize it as scripture....specifically something Paul repeatedly said to the Hebrews. I guess you would make fun of him too, so again I'm in good company with Paul. I'm happy to suffer ridicule for the sake of Jesus/Yeshua.

What are you talking about? We all recognize it as scripture. That He is the Medaitor of the New Covenant explains nothing about the covenant itself. But that is all YOU have offered up.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

But that is all YOU have offered up.

Then you have not read the thread. And what exactly have you offered up, other than false accusations and name calling?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I sing this many a morning in my morning prayers.

​

 

[Steeno7]

Then you have not read the thread. And what exactly have you offered up, other than false accusations and name calling?

You're trippin'.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Then you have not read the thread. And what exactly have you offered up, other than false accusations and name calling?

...and making fun of me

 

[Steeno7]

We define worship differently. The word in Hebrew is shachah, it means "to bend the knee, to bow." The idea is submission, we bend before the Lord, we bow before the Lord... we are submitting to the Lord... HE IS LORD. So all we do, our daily walk, our obedience, our reaching out to others, our study, our family life... on into how we interact at church... to the raising of hands... all we do while in submission to Him is part of worship.

To address your point... there were similarities and there still are. You're Catholic, right? Go to an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and watch. The incense, the holding up of the Word and veneration toward it... a few other rituals you do are directly tied to things that have been done in Synagogues or the Temple for a long long time. However, in some areas small changes, VERY SMALL at the time, were made that came in the form of decrees. To Martyr those changes weren't large enough to make note of, so to him things were "very much like" what had happened back then. Although Sunday worship, I will say, was not the majority position until after 134AD. Anyway... over time those small changes barely noticeable to a guy like Martyr become larger changes as time goes on. We replace the feasts with church instituted holidays some of which really are ex-pagan holy days given a new title and new face. The first century Christian still ate a biblically clean diet and to stop that a decree had to be passed that says we are not to eat the food of the Jews. Anyway... I have to run.... I have a study to get to.

Blessings.
Ken

Who is the "we" you are referencing? I thought you said you are a Christian.

 

[JLB777]

Yeshua and YHWH are one and the same!

Amen to that!

I have never heard of anyone who practices Messianic Judaism, confess that Jesus is Lord [YHWH].


JLB

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (NIV)

Now here is that verse again, as you define fulfill:

Don't need to as the word til, [until] says it all. Besides, I am not saying the Torah, the first Five is abolished, but rather the law of Moses that was added later to the Abrahamic Covenant, was removed from it.

Jesus said He came to fulfill. He fulfilled. So the requirement has been met for the law to pass away.

This is just exactly what Paul said about the law of Moses...

it was added, until the Seed should come. Galatians 3:19


Paul goes on to say the law was abolished. The law was the very thing that, created the enmity, and divided the Jew from the Gentile.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Definitions. If I come in faith to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel, I believe that makes me part of Israel.

Amen. The commonwealth of Israel.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11-13


Remember, Israel was not under the law of Moses.

More importantly, Jesus is the Israel of God.

However, when He returns to Gather His people, we will be gathered unto Him, on His way down to Jerusalem.

And we will forever be with Him there.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I would wait and see if God has a plan here. These people in that forum (a place I have not gone yet, and probably won't because of how volatile I already know it is) do not represent the body of work nor some things that are happening that God is currently doing. They are too wrapped up changing the litmus test from fruit production to knowledge and they WILL answer for this! (To God)

No way, we need to walk in the balance of truth.

Most Spirit filled christians, don't understand we are "grafted into" the Abrahamic Covenant.

It is the Abrahamic Covenant that was renewed, or "refreshed".


Remember, Abraham was a gentile.


Blessings to you man of God.


JLB

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
To that, I have no doubt. This is a young immature movement that is not equipped to touch the holy thing without profaning it. These are people who have come from mainstream Christianity who have not been taught methods of exegesis, they have no training in linguistics and semiotics, they wouldn't know a "time period source" if it bit them in the rear.... and yet they are dealing with information that requires training... discipleship. So, they become a polarizing mess that alienates friends, family, and brethren over issues THEY THINK are paramount but that truly are minutia. Does God care if one says Yahweh and another says Yehovah while another says Lord? No... He seeks a pure heart aimed at HIM!

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I would wait and see if God has a plan here. These people in that forum (a place I have not gone yet, and probably won't because of how volatile I already know it is) do not represent the body of work nor some things that are happening that God is currently doing. They are too wrapped up changing the litmus test from fruit production to knowledge and they WILL answer for this! (To God)

Blessings.
Ken

Wait and see is the sort of plan that allows error and heresy as well as danger to take hold and present a serious problem for the faithful.

In the world of nations and politics such a policy is appeasement and led to many deaths and great grief. ​

In the Church that policy led to a great deal of turmoil. So while one ought to hear the matter before deciding for or against it one ought not to be idle while error and wickedness break into the church making holes in the holy walls of the city of God to let in enemies of the truth and of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Who is the "we" you are referencing? I thought you said you are a Christian.

Are you implying that Hebrew Roots people are not saved by grace through faith and trusting in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

 

[Steeno7]

Are you implying that Hebrew Roots people are not saved by grace through faith and trusting in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

What you see in what is written is truly mysterious. Everyone who is saved is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB777]

Are you implying that Hebrew Roots people are not saved by grace through faith and trusting in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

They are if they turn from the law of Moses, and turn to Faith in Christ.

The law is not of faith.


JLB