Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[Frogster]

Why? Do you think we're above such pride? We're not.
...and we have a winner!

The OT people did not have sin remission until NT times. The perfect word is about sin cleansing, as per several passages in Hebrews.

Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


"Apart from us", means not until with us, were they perfected.

 

[Frogster]

Why? Do you think we're above such pride? We're not.
...and we have a winner!

It is not a winner, sin and death reigned until the cross, so the OT people were in the old dominion, that is a fact.


Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

 

[Frogster]

I am sure that a Catholic is welcome to start a thread in this forum because there are many charismatic Catholics and all Catholics believe that God's gifts persist to this day. It is probably impossible to be a Catholic Christian and not believe that God continues to send visions and dreams and work miracles among the faithful.

True.

 

[Frogster]

Why? Do you think we're above such pride? We're not.
...and we have a winner!

It says they did not receive the promises.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

 

[Frogster]

You have your opinion. Just because I do not choose to answer your questions to your satisfaction, does not mean that I do not know. I am very comfortable in my own knowledge and my own faith and beliefs. You have a wonderful evening.

You are doing just fine here!

 

[Frogster]

You did not answer the question at all, you evaded it at every turn. If you knew why would you deny others knowing what the answer is?

I am still trying to understand how you think we get the blessing from the law, but not the curses? We can't go fishing for what we like in an obsolete abolished, defunct, old cov, that was not even given to the churches.

 

[Frogster]

Not true



Whatever floats your boat. But if you look back I quoted more NT scriptures than I did old in order to prove my points....Paul did that too, only he quoted OT which I ended up quoting too by quoting him, so he and I are in good company.

Paul sure quoted the OT in Galatians to ward of the Hebrew roots movement. Also the verse shows how it was a sealed cov, all or nothing, you can't extract the blessings you kept asking people about, without the curses, thus sayeth Paul.

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.

 

[Frogster]

I did not make any posts advocating observance of dietary laws, I simply pointed out that if God said something was not food then it's not food, even though you may be able to put it in your mouth, chew it and swallow....just like my dog who eats cat poop but that's not dog food.

Ok, curious, do you think it is sin to eat lobster, pork, catfish, crawfish, shrimp, crab, etc?



1 Tim 4:3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

 

[Frogster]

Can you be specific about what God said is not food and when he said it and also to whom?

Good question, I await to see the reply!

 

[Frogster]

Excellent! Then we can enjoy a bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich together some time.

good one!

I accidently unliked one of your posts, that I liked, but then I changed it, just so you know. I meant to hit reply.

I want a BLT too, on seeded rye!

 

[Frogster]

You can eat lobster, but I'll probably get steak or chicken. I think lobster is the cockroach of the sea...very dirty. Plus I don't like the taste.

hmmmmmm..but if you liked it, are you allowed, according to how you see the text, to eat lobster?

 

[Frogster]

I love clam chowder and I have a recipe I have not tried yet for vegan chowder. It sounded yummy. I also have a recipe for vegan pulled pork. It uses Jackfruit and it tasted pretty awesome. My aunt who is a pork eater loved it.

Is that your proof as to if someone is a believer or not? Why are you taunting me?

Our bro is not taunting, you asked several questions over and over, to the same member, "ToBeLoved". Thanks,frog.

 

[Frogster]

God didn't say it was not food. It was forbidden to Israel between the time when the covenant at Sinai was given until the New Covenant in Christ came. It was all food for Noah and all food since Christ.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
(Genesis 9:1-6 KJV)​

Pigs move, lobsters do too, and clams also. They were given by God as food.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
(1 Timothy 4:1-5 KJV)​

​

Pigs, lobsters, and clams are all creatures that God created and are all given by God to us as food.

Yep, and it says every moving thing...

 

[Frogster]

There is no question for, at all, that what the faith looks like today is not even close to what it looked like in his day. That isn't to say that people today aren't saved or anything like that, but we are so far off-track that it truly is two religions. Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, he came to walk prophetically within an already established path. But, time and incrementalism has caused the ship to drift. My goal is not to rewrite the story but get back to the original intent.

Because there is a difference in faith, and THE faith, in Gal 3. The OT people had faith, but they were not in "the" faith yet, it had not come, it was hidden.


Jesus did come, to bring a new faith.


There is faith, and then there is THE faith, the coming gospel faith, that was hidden, later to be revealed in Gal 3:22-25..THE faith..not faith in a generic sense, but THE faith..the new belief system.

That was hidden, there are several texts to show it was hidden, the gospel grace.



It was not a generic faith in Galatians 3:23- 3:25 as a lot of translations make it seem, but THE faith, the gospel faith is meant. Check it out in the HCSB at the bottom of the post. The NIV gets it right on the first part, THE faith in 3:23, and the pre 2003 KJV gets it right on the second verse 3:25, THAT faith. It’s a this and that kind of thing, like how Paul said in Gal 1, Paul now preached THE faith, It was the coming faith to be revealed, it was speaking of the Gospel faith, Christianity in 3:23-25. Revealed means it was yet manifest prior. So that means it was not faith in a generic meaning, it was the Gospel faith, THE faith that was not yet come, until the gospel.


People will say Paul was wrong, there was always faith, citing Hebrews 11, but Paul means it differently here.


Example:....THE faith in 2 Corinthians 13:5, Acts 6:7, Ephesians 4:13, 1 Tim 6:21.


We might says so and so is of the faith…It could be used generically that way though, a Catholic cold say the faith, be we’re are not of THAT faith as protestants


Acts 6:7 And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.

HCSB Gal 3:23-25 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

 

[Frogster]

Not true at all... while many do fall into that category, most don't. But, cheery pick through 40,000+ denominations and sects of mainstream Christianity and we can make mainstream Christianity look pretty radical. Yeshua and YHWH are one and the same!



Definitions. If I come in faith to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel, I believe that makes me part of Israel. This then stands in harmony with Paul saying I WAS a gentile and WAS an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel but am NOW a fellow citizen. At the least, we are like the "foreigners/strangers" who came out of Egypt with Israel. They were to be treated as if native born. They had the Torah given to them as well. And they assimilated into the tribes they traveled with making them as much "Israel" as "Israel."



Again, definitions. You treat phrase "under the law" as one thing, when I know it to be an idiomatic phrase. The truth is, we are not under the law... we are not guilty, we are under grace...forgiven. As for fulfilled, like most Christians you treat this word as if it means "to bring an end to, abolish." So, let me show you what you definition does to Scripture:

Please read this and you will see how and where it was abolished.




Matt 5 and law abolishment.Please note the words, body, cross, death, died, His flesh,crucified, etc, they all are showing the same thing, the law was abolished in Hid flesh, on the cross, as per Col 2:14.

It is abolished in HIS body, for the Christians, we know the law will always stand to condemn the unsaved guilty, as Paul used it in Rom 1-3, for the unsaved as he said the law is not for the justified church in 1 Tim 1.


Please note the words, body, cross, death, His flesh, etc, they do not apply to the unsaved, it is abolished for those who died with Christ, even Jesus died to the law, Rom 7:4.

So to those who went with Christ, to the cross, the law is abolished, as he was/is, so are we, we died and rose in Him, free from the law.



Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross


Gal 2:19-20 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world (law) why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—


We see from the wordage, the conjunction of the body, the cross, the death, His flesh, crucified, died, canceled, all connect to the abolished law, for those who went to the cross, died to law, as/with Christ did.

So yes, as per Jesus and Paul, the law is not abolished for the unsaved, they are under judgment of law until the end, but if they go to the cross, they die to law too. Abolished for those who died with Christ, with He, who himself who died to law, Rom 7:4.



Rom 7:44 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.



See how in these verses, they connect the body, the cross, his flesh, and the law, abolished, canceled, died, etc, and how they all show one thing, they confirm Col 2:14. The law was nailed there, in, or through the body. Christ died to it at the cross, we died to it too, it is abolished, all of the words prove it, especially when we look at them together.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (NIV)

Now here is that verse again, as you define fulfill:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to abolish them.

Because you force "fulfill" to mean "abolish," Matthew 5:17 literally contradicts itself.



No, just misunderstood. Causing Scripture to stands at odds with itself is dangerous, which is what many mainstream teachings, do... unknowingly, but they do.



To that, I have no doubt. This is a young immature movement that is not equipped to touch the holy thing without profaning it. These are people who have come from mainstream Christianity who have not been taught methods of exegesis, they have no training in linguistics and semiotics, they wouldn't know a "time period source" if it bit them in the rear.... and yet they are dealing with information that requires training... discipleship. So, they become a polarizing mess that alienates friends, family, and brethren over issues THEY THINK are paramount but that truly are minutia. Does God care if one says Yahweh and another says Yehovah while another says Lord? No... He seeks a pure heart aimed at HIM!

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I would wait and see if God has a plan here. These people in that forum (a place I have not gone yet, and probably won't because of how volatile I already know it is) do not represent the body of work nor some things that are happening that God is currently doing. They are too wrapped up changing the litmus test from fruit production to knowledge and they WILL answer for this! (To God)

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Frogster]

We define worship differently. The word in Hebrew is shachah, it means "to bend the knee, to bow." The idea is submission, we bend before the Lord, we bow before the Lord... we are submitting to the Lord... HE IS LORD. So all we do, our daily walk, our obedience, our reaching out to others, our study, our family life... on into how we interact at church... to the raising of hands... all we do while in submission to Him is part of worship.

To address your point... there were similarities and there still are. You're Catholic, right? Go to an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and watch. The incense, the holding up of the Word and veneration toward it... a few other rituals you do are directly tied to things that have been done in Synagogues or the Temple for a long long time. However, in some areas small changes, VERY SMALL at the time, were made that came in the form of decrees. To Martyr those changes weren't large enough to make note of, so to him things were "very much like" what had happened back then. Although Sunday worship, I will say, was not the majority position until after 134AD. Anyway... over time those small changes barely noticeable to a guy like Martyr become larger changes as time goes on. We replace the feasts with church instituted holidays some of which really are ex-pagan holy days given a new title and new face. The first century Christian still ate a biblically clean diet and to stop that a decree had to be passed that says we are not to eat the food of the Jews. Anyway... I have to run.... I have a study to get to.

Blessings.
Ken

No they did not the Jewish Christians in Antioch were living and eating as gentiles, according to the gal 2 account.

 

[Frogster]

We define worship differently. The word in Hebrew is shachah, it means "to bend the knee, to bow." The idea is submission, we bend before the Lord, we bow before the Lord... we are submitting to the Lord... HE IS LORD. So all we do, our daily walk, our obedience, our reaching out to others, our study, our family life... on into how we interact at church... to the raising of hands... all we do while in submission to Him is part of worship.

To address your point... there were similarities and there still are. You're Catholic, right? Go to an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and watch. The incense, the holding up of the Word and veneration toward it... a few other rituals you do are directly tied to things that have been done in Synagogues or the Temple for a long long time. However, in some areas small changes, VERY SMALL at the time, were made that came in the form of decrees. To Martyr those changes weren't large enough to make note of, so to him things were "very much like" what had happened back then. Although Sunday worship, I will say, was not the majority position until after 134AD. Anyway... over time those small changes barely noticeable to a guy like Martyr become larger changes as time goes on. We replace the feasts with church instituted holidays some of which really are ex-pagan holy days given a new title and new face. The first century Christian still ate a biblically clean diet and to stop that a decree had to be passed that says we are not to eat the food of the Jews. Anyway... I have to run.... I have a study to get to.

Blessings.
Ken

red above, here are the facts about who ate what.



It doesn’t matter about what we eat before God.

1 Cor 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

The kingdom of God, is NOT about foods.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.



This..The LORD showed Paul, other than for the weak conscience Jewish person, who does not know better. Verse 14:20 says it is clean also.

Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean


Peter was eating Gentile unclean food.

Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

Corinth sold the unclean idol meat, strangled meat, that had blood in it. Paul said eat it.

1 Cor 10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.



QUOTING A PSALM HERE, to confirm his point about eating, after he said eat all in the pagan markets of Corinth...in chapter 10.

1 Cor 10:26 For "the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof."


What kind of food would a Corinthian pagan serve? Paul said it eat, other than for their weak conscience, a different issue, but he said eat it, knowing it was idol food.


1 Cor 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.


Doctrine of demons, = food abstinence.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.


Peter ate unclean gentile food after the sheet event.

Acts 11:3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Philippi had so few Jews, that there was not even a synagogue there, yet Paul stayed with Gentile Lydia, did he not eat setting food , while being a guest there? The Roman guard in Acts 16, proves the same point, he fed Paul meat, it was not Kosher meat.

Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Paul ate the unclean meat of a Roman guard.


Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.



How could Paul and Barnabas, preach and live with their Gentile converts, and the alienate them, by declaring them unclean, because of Mosaic food laws? That would be the very thing, Paul rebuked Peter for doing in Antioch, recorded in Galatians 2.

And of course....of course...Mark 7:19, Jesus declared all foods clean! That is an Aramaic Bible I used there too.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Mark 7:19“Because it does not enter his heart, but his belly, and is discharged by excretion, which purifies all foods.”


1 Cor 8..eating non Kosher, unclean meat, and meat that had blood, and strangled idol temple food was allowed, so long as stumbling was not going on.

The last word in Gen 9, had no restrictions. But Christians go be the expanding NT revelation anyway, that which I posted, even if we did not have Gen 9, the NT revelation clearly ended food restrictions.

Gen 9:2 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good question, I await to see the reply!

I thought it was a good question but I didn't get a reply until I asked several more questions about the specifics of bacon, lobster, and clam chowder! I am not sure why it happens but some posts are not really responses to what is asked or what is written. I guess it is easier to play the man than to address the issue.

 

[MoreCoffee]

good one!

I accidently unliked one of your posts, that I liked, but then I changed it, just so you know. I meant to hit reply.

I want a BLT too, on seeded rye!

BLT is almost heaven

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yep, and it says every moving thing...

There are some moving things I prefer not to eat but as saint John says everything God created is good when it is eaten with thanksgiving because the word of God and prayer make it holy.