Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[JLB777]

Wait and see is the sort of plan that allows error and heresy as well as danger to take hold and present a serious problem for the faithful.

In the world of nations and politics such a policy is appeasement and led to many deaths and great grief. ​

In the Church that policy led to a great deal of turmoil. So while one ought to hear the matter before deciding for or against it one ought not to be idle while error and wickedness break into the church making holes in the holy walls of the city of God to let in enemies of the truth and of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

 

[Messy]

Amen to that!

I have never heard of anyone who practices Messianic Judaism, confess that Jesus is Lord [YHWH].

In Holland I know two groups of Messianics and one pastor from the group who do believe He is God warns against what the other teaches, he teaches He's not God.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yeah, that is what I mean by worship too.

O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. ...
(Psalms 95:6-7a KJV)​

Saint Justin wrote:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.​

​

Is that like your manner of worship? Can you tell us what your meeting does when gathered for community worship?

Just a word of warning, the word "Sunday" did not exist at that time, that was added later to his writings. As for what we do when we gather... not much different than you. We gather on the 7th day, sing/praise, prayer, hear a teaching which includes discussion, and it ends with what is called oneg which is basically a post-service pot luck where we sit and talk Scripture for hours. The main difference is we don't do communion weekly... we believe that the cup he raised and the matzah (unleavened bread) he broke was done at a certain point of a Passover meal. The 3rd cup of 4, the cup of Redemption is what he raised, and the afikomen which was the middle piece of 3 pieces of matzah which had been broken and then buried (hidden) and then after dinner, raised from it's place and passed around and eaten. That was the bread he called "my body." Otherwise, we wouldn't offend you too much!

 

[Ken Rank]

No way, we need to walk in the balance of truth.

Most Spirit filled christians, don't understand we are "grafted into" the Abrahamic Covenant.

It is the Abrahamic Covenant that was renewed, or "refreshed".


Remember, Abraham was a gentile.


Blessings to you man of God.


JLB

My response is simply Psalm 105:8-10. I agree with you... I just think those verses draw out a bigger picture.

Be blessed!

Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

Who is the "we" you are referencing? I thought you said you are a Christian.

Sorry, "we" meaning out congregation. We study a little differently than others, I can explain how another time if you're interested. We do tend to have definitions based on how they were used long ago and not how they are used now. For example, and don't take this personal as it is not meant to be.... if I asked you what it means to be an "adopted child of God," what would your answer be? If you are like most, the image you have in your head is of a lost baby/child... an orphan, who was brought into the family of God along the lines of how we see adoption today. That is NOT what it means in Scripture.... in Scripture adoption is being called into the family of another.... to do the work of that family. We are adopted sons and daughters of God which means we have been brought into the family of God to be about the work of the Father, which was started by Messiah. So my point was that our group sees the word worship differently than most. We use "praise and worship" interchangeably" and they are not. Praise is part of worship, but so is obedience, so is taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, and so forth. Worship is ALL WE DO in word or deed because we are submitted to Him.

Peace.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

Amen to that!

I have never heard of anyone who practices Messianic Judaism, confess that Jesus is Lord [YHWH].

This is hard for a short post, but I will give it a shot. Early in Christianity (post 134AD) both Christians and Jews began to pass decrees and come up with practices that were designed to distance themselves from each other. Christians passed decrees about not eating the food of the Jews while the Jews began to wear Kippot because Paul wrote that man was not to cover his head. OK, like most they missed his point, he was talking about other authorities over us, not hats, still... they began to wear them to differentiate themselves from us.

Fast forward... some Jewish scholars have spent a great deal of time and effort creating doctrine that tries to show Messiah can't be God. I will show you 200 verses and then prove using science that Messiah can only BE GOD.... still, the Jews are raised to believe it can't be because if you open the door to 'can be' you open the door to Christianity, a place they do not want to go. Well, "Messianic Judaism" was originally Jews (mostly from Jews for Jesus) who repackaged Christianity to make it look more Jewish so they could convert Orthodox Jews. However, the Messianic Jews were still Jews raised in a culture that said, "God can't ever become a man." So... you simply won't find many who believe that Yeshua and YHWH are one and the same, God... a Spirit, manifested in the flesh.

Peace.
Ken

 

[JLB777]

This is hard for a short post, but I will give it a shot. Early in Christianity (post 134AD) both Christians and Jews began to pass decrees and come up with practices that were designed to distance themselves from each other. Christians passed decrees about not eating the food of the Jews while the Jews began to wear Kippot because Paul wrote that man was not to cover his head. OK, like most they missed his point, he was talking about other authorities over us, not hats, still... they began to wear them to differentiate themselves from us.

Fast forward... some Jewish scholars have spent a great deal of time and effort creating doctrine that tries to show Messiah can't be God. I will show you 200 verses and then prove using science that Messiah can only BE GOD.... still, the Jews are raised to believe it can't be because if you open the door to 'can be' you open the door to Christianity, a place they do not want to go. Well, "Messianic Judaism" was originally Jews (mostly from Jews for Jesus) who repackaged Christianity to make it look more Jewish so they could convert Orthodox Jews. However, the Messianic Jews were still Jews raised in a culture that said, "God can't ever become a man." So... you simply won't find many who believe that Yeshua and YHWH are one and the same, God... a Spirit, manifested in the flesh.

Peace.
Ken

Thanks for your response.

Peace be upon you.


JLB

 

[com7fy8]

Early in Christianity (post 134AD) both Christians and Jews began to pass decrees and come up with practices that were designed to distance themselves from each other. Christians passed decrees about not eating the food of the Jews

Paul says,

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

So, Paul, it appears to me from this scripture, would be like to the people he was reaching to. I can see he would eat their food and do things with them, except not do anything that really was against Jesus. So, I don't think anyone who knows the scriptures would have made a project of inventing outward things which were meant to make them look different than the Jews, since we are interested in reaching Jews and Paul would behave like Jews while reaching to them, it seems from this scripture.

But - - I notice how Paul says he who had been a Jew was trying to reach Jews. Possibly, he no longer considered himself really to be a Jew (Romans 2:28-29), since he was spiritually with Jesus and it does say that in Jesus "there is neither Jew nor Greek" > in Galatians 3:28.

So, if you are visiting with Hebrew Roots people or Messianics, possibly you can test if anyone really is Christian; and since there "might" be ones who are not, in any group, you can become like them so you can reach to those who are not saved or sound examples of Jesus.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I have never heard of anyone who practices Messianic Judaism, confess that Jesus is Lord [YHWH].

I have participated in several Messianic congregations, and all of them have confessed that Jesus/Yeshua is Lord.

The congregation I attend now is a mix of Hebrew Roots and Charismatic and they confess that Jesus is Lord. We do not trust in the law of God given via Moses for our salvation, we trust in Jesus Christ who died for our sins and was raised from the dead.

 

[Steeno7]

Sorry, "we" meaning out congregation. We study a little differently than others, I can explain how another time if you're interested. We do tend to have definitions based on how they were used long ago and not how they are used now. For example, and don't take this personal as it is not meant to be.... if I asked you what it means to be an "adopted child of God," what would your answer be? If you are like most, the image you have in your head is of a lost baby/child... an orphan, who was brought into the family of God along the lines of how we see adoption today. That is NOT what it means in Scripture.... in Scripture adoption is being called into the family of another.... to do the work of that family. We are adopted sons and daughters of God which means we have been brought into the family of God to be about the work of the Father, which was started by Messiah. So my point was that our group sees the word worship differently than most. We use "praise and worship" interchangeably" and they are not. Praise is part of worship, but so is obedience, so is taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, and so forth. Worship is ALL WE DO in word or deed because we are submitted to Him.You act as if

Peace.
Ken

I think your characterization of what "we" Christians understand about Scripture is as remarkably ignorant as is "your" own claim to having the proper understanding. You act as if "you" are the only ones who can and do look at and understand the historical context. Which is, of course, just ignorance on your part. But it does serves you well in justifying your beliefs and your separating yourselves from "us".

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just a word of warning, the word "Sunday" did not exist at that time, that was added later to his writings.

Got some credible source documentation to support that claim about the word "sunday" being added at a later date?

As for what we do when we gather... not much different than you. We gather on the 7th day, sing/praise, prayer, hear a teaching which includes discussion, and it ends with what is called oneg which is basically a post-service pot luck where we sit and talk Scripture for hours. The main difference is we don't do communion weekly... we believe that the cup he raised and the matzah (unleavened bread) he broke was done at a certain point of a Passover meal. The 3rd cup of 4, the cup of Redemption is what he raised, and the afikomen which was the middle piece of 3 pieces of matzah which had been broken and then buried (hidden) and then after dinner, raised from it's place and passed around and eaten. That was the bread he called "my body." Otherwise, we wouldn't offend you too much!

The order and events in what you describe are different from those described by saint Justin. Do you, for example, read from the holy scriptures before, during, or after the teaching that you hear?

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Holland I know two groups of Messianics and one pastor from the group who do believe He is God warns against what the other teaches, he teaches He's not God.

It does appear that some are Christian as Christian is defined in Christian Forums and some are not. I wonder how those who are Christian manage their relations with those who are not?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It does appear that some are Christian as Christian is defined in Christian Forums and some are not. I wonder how those who are Christian manage their relations with those who are not?

They manage the same as they do in all churches where there are Christians and non-Christians. There was one Messianic congregation I was part of where one man came every week but he had not accepted that Jesus was the Messiah yet. One day, during the teaching, he suddenly exclaimed "oh, now I understand....Jesus is the Messiah". That day he came to know Jesus as His Messiah and Lord and Savior.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... There was one Messianic congregation I was part of where one man came every week but he had not accepted that Jesus was the Messiah yet. One day, during the teaching, he suddenly exclaimed "oh, now I understand....Jesus is the Messiah". That day he came to know Jesus as His Messiah and Lord and Savior.

I asked about relations between denominations and congregations within the HRM/MJ community.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I asked about relations between denominations and congregations within the HRM/MJ community.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It does appear that some are Christian as Christian is defined in Christian Forums and some are not. I wonder how those who are Christian manage their relations with those who are not?

I'm still not sure I understand the question. Maybe if you share how your church manages their relations with those they believe are not Christians it would help me understand better what you are asking.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm still not sure I understand the question. Maybe if you share how your church manages their relations with those they believe are not Christians it would help me understand better what you are asking.

Okay if you have a few minutes to read this is a link to the declaration on the relation of the church to the non-christian religions

 

[Frogster]

This thread certainly has been moving fast.

It seems that there is quite a range of views among the HRM; some appear to want to follow dietary laws and the Torah to become Torah observant believers and others take a less stringent path seeking knowledge of Hebrew language and Jewish customs in ancient times and in the time of Christ. The latter may be beneficial for a Christian's faith and certainly will increase his or her knowledge. The former is an error and may lead to serious damage to the faith in those groups that promote it and in the world that see it being promoted.

You're right, and the

What is also ironic is that the Word itself testifies to how much better the New Covenant is. God layed it all out for us, in His Word, all the reason's why the New Covenant is much, much better.

Yes, good point, and the gentiles are being diverted away from grace, the beat thing ever to come to mankind! If they focus on the law, they are not hearing about the power of grace, which is the power over flesh.

The law was given to a fallen creation, that was in the flesh, and it did not take them put out the flesh, but new cov gospel grace did!

yet, all we hear about is law...really sad.

 

[Frogster]

I agree. The teaching is, I think, coming from sources that are universally seen as outside of the Christian faith. Sources such as Herbert W Armstrong's "Worldwide Church of God" and the daughter groups that kept to his doctrine (The WWCoG reformed its doctrine and joined the ranks of evangelicalism in the 1990s but many members and teachers broke away to preserve the doctrines of their founder H W Armstrong). It also seems to borrow from Rabbinic Judaism rather heavily making, as it does, frequent mention and use of the Targums and the Mishna as well as other sources from rabbinic Judaism. I do sometimes wonder how the movement can deal with what saint John had to say about the beginnings of Rabbinic Judaism in his day (after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD) when he wrote:

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Revelation 2:8-11 KJV)​

And again

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(Revelation 3:7-11 KJV)​

It is clear that the churches in those cities were experiencing serious persecutions from the rabbinic synagogues of their day and it is interesting that saint John refers to these as "the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie". One cannot help but think that what we see in some quarters today would be troubling to the apostles but not unfamiliar to them.

red above, Paul said that too, it did not come from the Lord!

Gal 5:8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.


In fact, he even blames the diabolical in Gal 3:1, "bewitched'.

 

[Frogster]

I hope in the future when you have a topic that is pertinent to this sub-forum that you come back around. This has been an interesting thread.

yup, coffee is cool, and he knows his stuff, we are blessed that he came here with his knowledge. you're cool too!