Healing is NOT in the atonement

Questioning Christian · May 10, 2006

It's in the stripes of Jesus, by which we are healed. Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. He bare our sins in his body on the tree. If he bore the sins, and the sins were the cause of sickness coming into the world by Adam, then if he bore the sins, he bore the consequences also, so that we might have life.

Questioning Christian · May 10, 2006

Praise God that when I pray to him, it's not like pulling the lever at the slot machine, and I don't have to wonder what's going to come out at the bottom.

I know that every time I pray, he hears me, and anything I ask in His name, he will do it.

Now watch the Bible contradictors come out of the woodwork.

JimB · May 10, 2006

Um, isn’t this being covered in another thread?.

Sincerely,
~Neil Down

JimfromOhio · May 10, 2006

Healing is IN the atonement however the "timing" of healing is eternal, not temporal.

jeolmstead · May 10, 2006

Questioning Christian said:
Praise God that when I pray to him, it's not like pulling the lever at the slot machine, and I don't have to wonder what's going to come out at the bottom.

I know that every time I pray, he hears me, and anything I ask in His name, he will do it.

Now watch the Bible contradictors come out of the woodwork.

I guess then God is like a coke machine? I put my money in, make a selection and get exactly what I want every time?

What does it mean to pray in Gods name?
Does that mean we add in Jesus name to the back of our prayers and He is obliged to do it?

Or does it mean to pray as Jesus would pray?

When asked why He did what he did and how He managed to do it Jesus said:
I only do what I see the Father doing, I only say what I hear the Father saying

Yes, we can move mountains, but only those God wants moved when he wants it done!

probinson · May 10, 2006

jeolmstead said:
I guess then God is like a coke machine? I put my money in, make a selection and get exactly what I want every time?

Ah, the old "coke machine" analogy. It's been a while since I heard that one. It's only a matter of time now before someone compares God to Santa Claus or an over-indulgent parent.

Since you're new here (welcome to CF!) I'll explain my beliefs briefly for you. I believe that God has ALREADY done all He is going to do for us by sending Jesus to die on the cross. I believe that He has provided EVERYTHING I could ever possibly need. I also believe it's up to us as believers to RECEIVE what has been done for us. I don't ask God for healing when I pray. I thank Him for what He has already done.

jeolmstead said:
What does it mean to pray in Gods name?
Does that mean we add in Jesus name to the back of our prayers and He is obliged to do it?

This question becomes moot when you realize that He doesn't need to DO anything. He's already done it!

jeolmstead said:
Or does it mean to pray as Jesus would pray?

When asked why He did what he did and how He managed to do it Jesus said:
I only do what I see the Father doing, I only say what I hear the Father saying

Jesus also prayed, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".

jeolmstead said:
Yes, we can move mountains, but only those God wants moved when he wants it done!

I have to wonder then why Jesus didn't put this condition on what He said.

jeolmstead · May 10, 2006

Thank you for the warm welcome! Yes it is true that I am new to CF, I am however not new to the faith,

When Jesus said I can only do what I see the father doing. I take that to mean what it says.

I don’t think I can be more spiritual then Jesus…..

I do agree the atoning work of Jesus is complete. Therefore I can come boldly before the throne of grace and there make my petitions known.

I believe by his stripes we are healed, but I also know that Stephen was not healed he died. (I guess he didn’t understand the gospel the way you do) There are several instances where God delivered Peter from Jail. But, The last last time he ended up upside done on a cross as he did not deem himself worthy to be crucified as the LORD was. Paul had his thorn, we don’t really know what it was but we do know he asked God to take it away (God said no, my grace is sufficient) If Paul had just understood like you do he could have claimed his deliverance. Since as you say, Jesus had already paid for it, it was his for the taking. Finally he could have avoided having his head chopped off.

We could go through Fox’s book of Martyrs, take each one in turn and point out how they are lacking in faith.

Atlantians · May 10, 2006

Questioning Christian said:
It's in the stripes of Jesus, by which we are healed. Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. He bare our sins in his body on the tree. If he bore the sins, and the sins were the cause of sickness coming into the world by Adam, then if he bore the sins, he bore the consequences also, so that we might have life.

The whipping of Jesus' body is part of the atonement.
The Atonement started when the first punch was struck opon Jesus' face.

JimfromOhio said:
Healing is IN the atonement however the "timing" of healing is eternal, not temporal.

I have to disagree.
Healing is not in the atonement.

The atonement, including the whipping of Jesus, since that was the beginning of the atonement, is the taking of our punishment for sins by Jesus.

That is the atonement.
Perfected bodies in the resurrection is an additional grace God has promised.
And healing in the temporal, is a lesser though wonderful grace God provides according to His will.

probinson · May 10, 2006

jeolmstead said:
Thank you for the warm welcome! Yes it is true that I am new to CF, I am however not new to the faith,

I'm sorry if I implied that. It certainly was not intentional. I was sincerely just trying to welcome you to the forums.

jeolmstead said:
When Jesus said I can only do what I see the father doing. I take that to mean what it says.

As do I. And as I've pointed out here many times, there is not one time recorded in scripture where someone came to Jesus in faith requesting healing and was denied. In fact, there are many instances where Jesus commended people for their faith and in some cases even went so far as to say that their faith had healed them. I have to believe then that since Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing that He saw the Father healing people when they came in faith.

jeolmstead said:
I don’t think I can be more spiritual then Jesus…..

Neither do I. But I do believe, because Jesus said plainly, that I can do the same things and even greater things that He did.

jeolmstead said:
I do agree the atoning work of Jesus is complete. Therefore I can come boldly before the throne of grace and there make my petitions known.

I believe by his stripes we are healed, but I also know that Stephen was not healed he died. (I guess he didn’t understand the gospel the way you do) There are several instances where God delivered Peter from Jail. But, The last last time he ended up upside done on a cross as he did not deem himself worthy to be crucified as the LORD was. Paul had his thorn, we don’t really know what it was but we do know he asked God to take it away (God said no, my grace is sufficient) If Paul had just understood like you do he could have claimed his deliverance. Since as you say, Jesus had already paid for it, it was his for the taking. Finally he could have avoided having his head chopped off.

Well, I have a real problem with equating the all-sufficient grace of God to a "no" answer, but that's a debate for another thread.

In each of these instances you've listed (i.e. martyrs) these people put the Gospel above their own lives. This is quite different from sickness and disease.

jeolmstead · May 10, 2006

Probinson,

I do feel welcome!

I very much enjoy your writing. I am sincerely considering what you say. I agree with you on more then you realize. I’m sorry if I sound contrite. I know done of us have all the answers.

Iron sharpens Iron

It’s good to know what you believe and why you believe it.

John O.

Trish1947 · May 10, 2006

Awe, spell, lets just all go be with the Lord, and be well. Healing over these debates about does God heal us physically mentally, spiritually, financially, heavenly, inbetween, on our way, while we're cooking dinner, on our way to a movie, today, next week, next year, while we're inhaling or exhaling, at least there, we will have peace about it.

Atlantians · May 10, 2006

probinson said:
Well, I have a real problem with equating the all-sufficient grace of God to a "no" answer, but that's a debate for another thread.

What the heck do you mean by that?
If God says no to a request he is somehow less gracious?

Bobber · May 10, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Healing is IN the atonement however the "timing" of healing is eternal, not temporal.

Not true....healing for the physical body is the earnest of the redemption of the body....we will grow old but that is not sickness and disease....and you don't need sickness and disease to die....God just takes away ones spirit....

Bobber · May 10, 2006

jeolmstead said:
I believe by his stripes we are healed, but I also know that Stephen was not healed he died.

But then again that has nothing to do with sickness and disease does it...that's really about persecution....Jesus said in this world we will sometimes have to endure persecution....one thing we should know even about that though if we pray and are in the exact will of God much of that could be avoided....From what I read in the book of Acts the Holy Spirit told Paul not to go up to Jerusalem and he was warned to separate times not to do so....he did so anyway and everything the Prophet warned him would happen did happen.

JimfromOhio · May 10, 2006

Bobber said:
Not true....healing for the physical body is the earnest of the redemption of the body....we will grow old but that is not sickness and disease....and you don't need sickness and disease to die....God just takes away ones spirit....

So if healing is the prime, then Resurrection is being preached in vain?

probinson · May 10, 2006

Atlantians said:
What the heck do you mean by that?
If God says no to a request he is somehow less gracious?

I mean that God never told Paul "no". That's a man-made doctrine. NO translation of scripture says that God said "no". God said "My grace is sufficient". That does not mean "no". Unless your doctrine tells you otherwise.

It is astounding to me how religion has taken a powerful phrase such as this and reduced it to God saying "no".

JimfromOhio · May 10, 2006

probinson said:
I mean that God never told Paul "no". That's a man-made doctrine. NO translation of scripture says that God said "no". God said "My grace is sufficient". That does not mean "no". Unless your doctrine tells you otherwise.

It is astounding to me how religion has taken a powerful phrase such as this and reduced it to God saying "no".

1 John 5:14
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

We don't know what His will is for us. If I am healed, God's plan for using me for His glory (Great Commission). Which is more important in God's will? Great Commission or Healing?

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

1 Corinthians 9:22-24 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Philippians 1:27
Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

probinson · May 11, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
1 John 5:14
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

We don't know what His will is for us.

Ay carumba....

Romans 12:2 (NLT)
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is.

JimfromOhio said:
If I am healed, God's plan for using me for His glory (Great Commission). Which is more important in God's will? Great Commission or Healing?

I swear, if I see one more false dichotomy I think I'll puke.

Jesus INCLUDED healing in the Great Commission:

Mark 16:15-18
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

TreeOfLife · May 11, 2006

probinson said:
Ay carumba....

Romans 12:2 (NLT)
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is.

I swear, if I see one more false dichotomy I think I'll puke.

Jesus INCLUDED healing in the Great Commission:

Mark 16:15-18
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Pete, you are such an example to me of patience and steadfast determination. May God richly bless you bro.

Christina M · May 11, 2006

TreeOfLife said:
Pete, you are such an example to me of patience and steadfast determination. May God richly bless you bro.

Ditto!

GOD IS GOOD!!!!

Healing is NOT in the atonement

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