healing and forgiveness

[sk8Joyful]

2kings 8:29
And king Joram went back to be healed, in Jezreel of the wounds which the Syrians had given him
and
2kings 9:15
9:11-15 Those who faithfully deliver the Lord's message to sinners, have in all ages been treated as madmen. Their judgment, speech, and conduct are contrary to those of other men;
they endure much, and are influenced by motives, into which others often cannot enter. But above all,
the charge is brought by worldly & ungodly of all sorts, who are mad indeed;
while the principles and practice of the devoted servants of God, prove to be wise and reasonable.

Catherine: you publically admitted here, feeling pleasure, in calling Merlin & me "madmen". How does this scripture apply to you?

2 Kings 20:1-11

1 In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.’”
2 Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying,
3 “Now, O Lord, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 And before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him:
5 “Turn back, and say to Hezekiah the leader of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord,
6 and I will add 15 years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake.”
7 And Isaiah said, “Bring a cake of figs. And let them take and lay it on the boil, that he may recover.”

8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What shall be the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the Lord on the third day?”
9 And Isaiah said, “This shall be the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he has promised: shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or go back ten steps?”
10 And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to lengthen ten steps. Rather let the shadow go back ten steps.”
11 And Isaiah the prophet called to the Lord, and he brought the shadow back 10 steps, by which it had gone down on the steps of Ahaz.

 

[sk8Joyful]

An elder in Greece, who served as a priest at a major Athens hospital,
was frequently consulted by doctors for advice on diagnosis and treatment.
Elder Porphyrios, a Christ-loving soul, was granted by God to "see" what the actual condition and need was for patients.

Yes, and as we well know Christ-loving people can also learn to 'see' today, for helping people heal... of this, I can testify.

 

[Thekla]

At least sometimes, imo, God heals so that we have the opportunity to forgive.

 

[Strong in Him]

2 Kings 20:1-11

1 In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.’”
2 Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying,
3 “Now, O Lord, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 And before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him:
5 “Turn back, and say to Hezekiah the leader of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord,
6 and I will add 15 years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake.”
7 And Isaiah said, “Bring a cake of figs. And let them take and lay it on the boil, that he may recover.”

8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What shall be the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the Lord on the third day?”
9 And Isaiah said, “This shall be the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he has promised: shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or go back ten steps?”
10 And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to lengthen ten steps. Rather let the shadow go back ten steps.”
11 And Isaiah the prophet called to the Lord, and he brought the shadow back 10 steps, by which it had gone down on the steps of Ahaz.

This shows that the LORD said that he would heal Hezekiah and gave him a sign to assure him of his word.
I don't think anyone has disputed that God heals; what's your point?

 

[sk8Joyful]

At least sometimes, imo, God heals so that we have the opportunity to forgive.

Opportunities abound richly for us to *Forgive instantly* so we may heal... momentarily.

 

[Thekla]

Opportunities abound richly for us to *Forgiveinstantaneously* so we may heal... momentarily.

Christ came for the "hard heads", too

 

[Thekla]

Both the healing of someone in our midst, and the witness of Christ-likeness of someone in our midst who patiently endures a health struggle, can melt our hearts - turning us to He who endured for our sake.

 

[sk8Joyful]

the witness of Christ-likeness of someone in our midst,
who patiently endures a health struggle

but that, if I understood Merlin correctly, is not the point of her thread here.

point: Forgiveness (the faster completely, the better)
can enhance & ensure healing<--for this is how GOD us designed/created.
and
We are made to PRAISE GOD: by allowing our healing... this is the point, right Merlin?

 

[Thekla]

but that, if I understood Merlin correctly, is not the point of her thread here.

point: Forgiveness (the faster completely, the better)
can enhance & ensure healing<--for this is how GOD us designed/created.
and
We are made to PRAISE GOD: by allowing our healing... this is the point, right Merlin?

due to the Fall, our "design" is distorted; certainly, not all who are not healed are debased by lack of forgiveness, and there are likely some in great health who have a heart of stone...

again, what did my husbands three day old brother fail to forgive that resulted in his death ?

 

[Catherineanne]

(but healing is "not of this planet" \\ accord. to Catherine's religion)

You are distorting what I have said into what I have not said. Healing of amputated limbs and necrotic tissue is what I have said does not happen, because it doesn't; not in this world but in the next only. Or on another planet, perhaps.

I would explain why this is relevant to me and my family, but the attitude from some Christians towards vulnerability on this thread makes it impossible. I hope those responsible are proud of this.

 

[Merlin]

Hi Merlin.
I am not following the significance of the AND here.
Thank you.

in Hebrew, 'and' often starts a new idea.
ever notice in the KJV in Genesis, sentences starting with 'and'?
it's not a grammer error. There actually is a 'and' in the Hebrew being translated there.

It would have been legitimate to have translated isa 53.5 as 2 sentences.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him.

and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[Merlin]

The passage is talking about sin, transgressions - spiritual sickness. As Catherineanne has said, often in the OT the writers make two parallel statements, each saying the same thing. There's a lot of it in the Psalms. Now if Isaiah had said, "he was pierced for our transgressions, and beaten so that we might be physically healed", or "by his death we have both spiritual and physical wholeness"; that might be different. It would certainly be a lot clearer.

basically, he did.
The problem is in the translation and beliefs of people who don't want it to say it's about healing.
see my other post http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49694260&postcount=233

I have no intention of playing the blame game as I do not blame anyone for my illness.
But very often, threads like this make me feel as though someone is blaming me for not having been healed. I wouldn't be surprised if your response to what I have written above was something along the lines of, "if you want your healing, you have to do your bit. God has done his, you haven't received it." Or "God cannot heal you because of your attitude/lack of faith/negative emotions/unwillingness to believe." Or simply "you want to remain sick." I don't wish to put words in your mouth, but this is my experience form similar healing threads.
Ok, so maybe the word "blame" isn't used, but the implication most definitely is that it's my responsibility to do/believe the things that will result in my healing; that God is desperate to heal but actually can't because of me.

I don't accept that at all. If it is God's will always to heal, if he is glorified in healing and if I want to be healed, and also for him to do his will and be glorified in my life; then he'd heal me when I ask.

if ... then He'd jump through my hoops.

In the Gospels, Jesus did not wait until people had got their theology straight before he healed them.

hint

One man went to him and said IF you want to do this, you can, another said "I believe, help me in my unbelief". Jairus took Jesus to heal his daughter but laughed at him when Jesus said that she wasn't dead. The man by the pool at Bethesda was asked if he wanted to be healed and could not even give a straight answer to the question, never mind confess his faith that Jesus would be the one who would heal him (John 5). The man who was born blind was not even asked that, Jesus just healed him and went away. It was only when he went to find Jesus that the man learned who he was.

and where did He not heal?

 

[Merlin]

I have had many discussions on these forums about these verses in Isaiah and the whole "Jesus died so that we could hve perfect physical health", debate.

That's not why He died.
you are right there.

 

[Merlin]

I agree as well that God heals. But there seems to be an implication that those who are not healed or ill do not sufficiently love with the reverse for those who are healed.

the implication is only found by those 'reading into posts' that which is not there.

 

[Strong in Him]

it's hard to accept healing when there is so much pride in how you deal with your illness.

Pride? Oh how little you know about me! If I was proud to be ill, I wouldn't complain about it; and I can assure you I don't do masochism or martyrdom.

If I wanted to remain ill, if I believed that this was the only way for God's glory to be seen in my life, do you really think I'd bother with doctors, hospital tests and tablets? And why would I ask for prayer for healing, or go to healing services? Don't you think I'd actually pray that God would not take my illness away so that he could be better glorified in me? In fact maybe I'd better ask God to make sure that from now on, all his blessings to me are in the form of physical illness, because it's such fun!! Sorry, but get real.

You make it sound as though I am looking for Scriptures which "give me an excuse" to remain ill. I don't think you do, or can, understand where I am coming from and what I am saying, because you've not been there.

you have a label, a legitimate diagnosis, every excuse to be ill.

See what I mean?

and where did He not heal?

How about John 5? Jesus probably had to walk past, or step over, many disabled people to get to just one. What about them?

 

[Merlin]

How about John 5? Jesus probably had to walk past, or step over, many disabled people to get to just one. What about them?

your evidence of nonhealing?

 

[Thekla]

the implication is only found by those 'reading into posts' that which is not there.

Sorry if I misunderstood; it seemed you said that 95% of non-healing of illness such as cancer, diabetes, MS, etc was the result of not forgiving.

If the act of forgiving is from God, the ability to forgive is from God as well (though it is something we must 'initiate'/consent to). This is then per our relationship with God; not forgiving in a sense 'divides' us from him.

So, I concluded that the condition of not-forgiving is an indication of our willful 'dividing from' God (ie lack of love).

This would indicate that the 95% who are not healed are lacking love - which, per my experience, would include infants, young children, and many of remarkable and beautiful faith in and love for God.

 

[Strong in Him]

your evidence of nonhealing?

I didn't give it as proof of non healing, I just said, "what about John 5?" Verse 3 says that a "great number" of disabled people used to lie by the pool of Bethesda; yet we are only told that Jesus healed one of them.

It looks very much as though Jesus singled out ONE of the people lying there for healing, and I wondered if you had any thoughts on that?

Also, Jesus did not go to the cross because he had taught all the people he could, and healed all those who needed it. There were people in the country and surrounding areas who did not get healed by him.

 

[sunlover1]

the implication is only found by those 'reading into posts' that which is not there.

Sorry if I misunderstood; it seemed you said that 95% of non-healing of illness such as cancer, diabetes, MS, etc was the result of not forgiving.

If the act of forgiving is from God, the ability to forgive is from God as well (though it is something we must 'initiate'/consent to). This is then per our relationship with God; not forgiving in a sense 'divides' us from him.

So, I concluded that the condition of not-forgiving is an indication of our willful 'dividing from' God (ie lack of love).

This would indicate that the 95% who are not healed are lacking love - which, per my experience, would include infants, young children, and many of remarkable and beautiful faith in and love for God.

To all of us:

I think that there is, not only a lot of misunderstanding in this thread,
and some correct understanding of mistaken beliefs due to assumptions (95 percent of people arent healed due to unforgiveness), but also,
plain old lack of rightly dividing the Word of truth.

But the misunderstanding and the habit of (as is so common at GT)
wanting to fight for ones own beliefs is clouding any possibility of
rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Rather than shaking our fists and standing as the accuser of the brethren,
we might find that some of our OWN beliefs are erroneous. Perhaps we've
been taught wrong, perhaps because of what we've been taught or have
always assumed, we cannot open our hearts to find that deeper understanding.

There seems to be a doublemindedness here too.
What we know doesnt line up with what we know and
so...
We end up not knowing anything.
You can have faith, and still need wisdom.
But you have to have things settled in your heart in order
to be able to properly hear God.

Does God heal? Certainly, I'm sure we all agree on that.
Can WE do something or neglect to do something that
can affect our own or other's healing?
Again, certainly.
Do 95% of instances of lack of healing involve unforgiveness?
Certainly not. we have no way to say such a thing.
Can unforgiveness in your heart CAUSE illness? I would
think it certainly can and often does.
Just as feelings of guilt and condemnation can .
Psychosomatic illness is actual illness brought on or
at least aggravated by emotions.
I"m guessing we all agree so far.

Last but not least, does faith have any bearing on healing?

sunlover

 

[Thekla]

Yes; faith that healed or not healed, at this point it is for our benefit.

God does not ask us to become perfect first. He perfects.