healing and forgiveness

[Catherineanne]

I'm not offended at the teaching that God heals.

[Staff Edit] Nobody is disputing God's ability to heal.

What we are disagreeing with is the suggestion from Merlin that 95% of those with chronic ill health are unwell as a direct result of lack of forgiveness towards those around them, and that, therefore, if they somehow embrace that forgiveness they will recover physically from their illness.

What I also have disagreed with is the suggestion that God makes amputated legs grow back. He doesn't; not for even the most Godly, most devout of people.

You and Merlin have had a superb example of faith in God from Strong in Him, and yet instead of commending her example, you berate her for not wanting to heal. This is quite simply not acceptable, on any level. You do your faith no favours by this attitude, but rather bring it into disrepute.

 

[Strong in Him]

now you declare what God can and cannot do?

Isn't this what you're doing when you say that the Lord cannot say "wait", with regards to healing?

 

[sunlover1]

This really is weasel thinking. Nobody is disputing God's ability to heal.

Adhominem and Strawman
I didnt say anyone was disputing God's ability to heal.
Once again you put words into my mouth.

What we are disagreeing with is the suggestion from Merlin that 95% of those with chronic ill health are unwell as a direct result of lack of forgiveness towards those around them, and that, therefore, if they somehow embrace that forgiveness they will recover physically from their illness.

That's a given.
There were many other things disputed in this thread,
I wouldnt waste my time trying to show truth against
something that's a given.
One cannot possibly know the percentage of folks who
are ill as a result of unforgiveness.
But I did post the passage showing that if you do have
unforgiveness, you need to forgive before God will
forgive you.

What I also have disagreed with is the suggestion that God makes amputated legs grow back. He doesn't; not for even the most Godly, most devout of people.

And again, one cannot possibly know such a thing.
So while SHE cannot know, you on the other hand can?
And yet I think like a weasel.

You and Merlin have had a superb example of faith in God from Strong in Him, and yet instead of commending his example, you berate him for not wanting to heal.

And now I have not encouraged SIH (HER btw) yet have berated her?
IIRC you've misrepresented me in 100% of your accusations in this
thread.

This is quite simply not acceptable, on any level. You do your faith no favours by this attitude, but rather bring it into disrepute

No, that would not be acceptable.
And I would not do it.

My only stand is that God DOES heal, Faith WAS mentioned
as the factor in healings, and that often the reason ppl arent
healthy is due to sowing and reaping. I used ME as an example,
and have never once accused Strong in Him of being at fault for
whatever her malady is. If someone else has done so, then your
gripe is with him/her. If you have nothing better to do, you may
continue to accuse me. You'll win first person placed on my
ignore list, because I do not care for your type of discussion.
It's contentious and dishonest.
This thread should be a blessing and revelation, many truths
have been shared.

Weasly thinking, donkey reading, sunlover

 

[Thekla]

I didnt see anyone implying THAT.
Did i miss something?
But yeah, this is GT and every thread is filled with people
becoming offended.
I'm not offended at the teaching that God heals.
I believe that He does, and I believe that the
variable is time.
Just my opinion, although Jesus seemed to do it 'now'.


Sure it would be!

I agree as well that God heals. But there seems to be an implication that those who are not healed or ill do not sufficiently love with the reverse for those who are healed.

I guess my question should more accurately be: did Paul fail to forgive ?

Forgiveness is a "gift from God" (it is two steps beyond "I need it, I take it"/law of the jungle and one step beyond "an eye for an eye"/law of equality or man); forgiveness is the "Law of God" - it is part and parcel with humility and love.

I have no doubt that we fall short in observing the "Law of God", love humility and forgiveness, but this would indicate those who are well/healed have achieved this, and those who are unwell/not healed have not.

 

[sunlover1]

I agree as well that God heals. But there seems to be an implication that those who are not healed or ill do not sufficiently love with the reverse for those who are healed.

Now I have seen it implied that those who haven't manifested healing
dont have as much 'faith' as those who are. But then again, faith
is a gift of God as well

I guess my question should more accurately be: did Paul fail to forgive ?

While I have no answers about healing except what I read in Scripture;
Pauls thorn, and again, we have no way to know (at this time ) what
that thorn was, was given to help him.
since we dont know what it was, and all of the other many variables,
and since Scripture is vague on this, I cannot accurately comment on
Pauls thorn.
Did paul ever walk in unforgiveness? Could be, he was after all,
the chiefest of sinners But the reason for his thorn was given.
(I'd rather have a thorn than pride, whatever that thorn was.

Forgiveness is a "gift from God" (it is two steps beyond "I need it, I take it"/law of the jungle and one step beyond "an eye for an eye"/law of equality or man); forgiveness is the "Law of God" - it is part and parcel with humility and love.

I can only comment on my own heart. Last year, God showed me a dream
which i didnt understand, but a week later during prayer He revealed it that
I had a root of bitterness inside of me, and then He showed me, when I asked, how to remove that root (mercy is he key in case anyone here deals
with bitterness).
Here I had been walking in unforgiveness for a very long time. I love God,
and I love to be in close communion with Him, yet I had held bitterness
in my heart for one of his creation. Did I love that person? Yes, but
had unforgiveness toward him.

I have no doubt that we fall short in observing the "Law of God", love humility and forgiveness, but this would indicate those who are well/healed have achieved this, and those who are unwell/not healed have not

I dont know thekla, who/why/what of healing. All I know is what Scripture
says.
(Is any sick among you... prayer of faith shall raise the sick...)
Does it always SEEM that way? No, not in my life either, although I have
many children and havent seen a doctors bill in many years outside of
me going once a year to get my narcotics that I take for the thing that
I deal with, which is 'fear'.
Is this fear something that God has given me, so that I wont leave the
house and go hit the bars or ... go get worldly or something?
Is this fear from the enemy so I wont get out there and do street ministry?
Is it my diet... unforgiveness? IS it lack of faith on my part?
What does Scripture say?
Have i petitioned God, fasted and prayed for that illumination that
comes with fasting? no.
For now, I will just say it's probably not God's will that I live with fear
on any level.
We both know the Scriptures.

Is emotional healing the same as physical?
I'd say pain is pain and healing is healing, no?

God bless all who are in pain.
we can encourage and love each other,
but if someone says unforgiveness is not
ONE reason for ill health, whether emotional physical
or spiritual, I'd have to say, "foul".

If that is erroneous thinking, I'm open to new revelations.

 

[Thekla]

I don't see anything wrong with forgiveness - God knows so many of us fail on that count ! And it is hard; not forgiving is harder on us, though.

But in considering this question, I thought of Job and his boils,

And then our gentle sweet neighbor who died of Leukemia when barely six.
My husband's brother, who died when he was three days old.
His other brother, who evidenced severe allergies at age two or three.
My brother, who was just over a year when he had his first seizure (they've never stopped); a child in our old parish with more serious seizures that started at an age younger than my brother's.
A friend, who entered a diabetic coma at age six.

 

[sunlover1]

I don't see anything wrong with forgiveness - God knows so many of us fail on that count ! And it is hard; not forgiving is harder on us, though.

And I agree. And that's why I say too, that unforgiveness may
be a reason for ill health... ONE of MANY reasons (imo)

But in considering this question, I thought of Job and his boils,

And then our gentle sweet neighbor who died of Leukemia when barely six.
My husband's brother, who died when he was three days old.
His other brother, who evidenced severe allergies at age two or three.
My brother, who was just over a year when he had his first seizure (they've never stopped); a child in our old parish with more serious seizures that started at an age younger than my brother's.
A friend, who entered a diabetic coma at age six.

[/quote]
Right, and God alone knows the 'why's of all of these things.
I have not and would not claim that 95%... or even 10% of all
illnesses are attributed to unforgiveness.
How can we know this sort of thing unless it's written?

What I'm more interested in is truth. We have folks who
really do believe in healing, those who don't, and then
there are certainly those who 'sorta' do, but don't, and
I'm sure there are more options... then there's the Benny
Hinns of the world.
But it's not what I believe or what you believe that matters,
but what God says.
Now if what God says, and what I 'believe' does not match up,
then what?

so... IMO, we should all be discovering together, what God says...
Rather than some of the things that have been said in this thread.


Otherwise I might go over there and see if it turns out
that Rhamiel is a cannibal after all.
I've always suspected he was, did you?

 

[Thekla]

I just made my list because I find it hard to think that so many - so young - could have failed so bitterly in this manner, bringing illness on themselves.

Perhaps those who are healed have achieved "perfect forgiveness", I don't know.

Where God always does heal is the "personhood" of the person, if we will agree to it.
Sometimes, imo, He permits illness to help us (or others who know us) come to this agreement. And the same for healings. His ways are as they are ... perfectly fashioned for each of us, if we will have Him.

Otherwise I might go over there and see if it turns out
that Rhamiel is a cannibal after all.
I've always suspected he was, did you?

dangerous territory, that

 

[Catherineanne]

You'll win first person placed on my
ignore list, because I do not care for your type of discussion.

Somehow, I don't think I will be losing any sleep over this.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't see anything wrong with forgiveness - God knows so many of us fail on that count ! And it is hard; not forgiving is harder on us, though.

But in considering this question, I thought of Job and his boils,

And then our gentle sweet neighbor who died of Leukemia when barely six.
My husband's brother, who died when he was three days old.
His other brother, who evidenced severe allergies at age two or three.
My brother, who was just over a year when he had his first seizure (they've never stopped); a child in our old parish with more serious seizures that started at an age younger than my brother's.
A friend, who entered a diabetic coma at age six.

May they all rest safely in the arms of the Lord, Thekla.

This world makes no sense if we judge it by the values of this world, where nothing matters but youth, strength and wealth, and where the old and sick can go to the deuce, because they are not wanted.

Sometimes, in suffering chronic ill health what we learn is about another perspective; to see ourselves not as failures but as examples of patience or obedience, in the same way as Christ accepting the cup offered to him at Gethsemane looked like a failure, but was not. If we see our world from God's perspective, then death is not an ending, but the start of a much more wonderful life with him.

Dickens asks at one point, when thinking of a young relation who has died, which of us, knowing where she has gone, and whose arms she is resting in, would wish her back again to this world of pain and suffering?

This is a hard question. My own selfish answer would be that I do want my grandparents back, and my uncles, and my friend who died a couple of years ago. But the kinder response is to realise that what they have now is far more than we have, and that the end of their lives, however painful and difficult, was only the start of their new life with God.

In this context, whether I do nor do not get healed of whatever thorn in the flesh I have, is irrelevant. What matters is to see as God sees, both in relation to the world around us, and to ourselves.

And after that, it is a matter of trust, patience and hope.

 

[MamaZ]

This really is weasel thinking. Nobody is disputing God's ability to heal.

What we are disagreeing with is the suggestion from Merlin that 95% of those with chronic ill health are unwell as a direct result of lack of forgiveness towards those around them, and that, therefore, if they somehow embrace that forgiveness they will recover physically from their illness.

What I also have disagreed with is the suggestion that God makes amputated legs grow back. He doesn't; not for even the most Godly, most devout of people.

Sure He does.. Ever been to India and seen the wonderful miracles of God that happen there? The amazing testimonies of God completely healing people?

I myself have had a growing of a leg by the power of God. I had one leg much shorter than the other.. Had is the key word.. It is wonderful to feel the power of God go through you like that and know that we are created out of the dust and all mighty God can heal those whom ask.


You and Merlin have had a superb example of faith in God from Strong in Him, and yet instead of commending her example, you berate her for not wanting to heal. This is quite simply not acceptable, on any level. You do your faith no favours by this attitude, but rather bring it into disrepute.

Why are not all healed instantly? I cannot answer that question. But I know and have faith that God can.

 

[MamaZ]

Sin is the very cause of all illness. Not that any of the people personally sinned but because sin entered in and all things are subject to this.

 

[Melethiel]

Sin is the very cause of all illness. Not that any of the people personally sinned but because sin entered in and all things are subject to this.

Nobody has questioned that.

 

[MamaZ]

Nobody has questioned that.

I know.. If sin is the cause then where did sin originate from?

 

[sunlover1]

Somehow, I don't think I will be losing any sleep over this.

Certainly not.
I was just letting you know.
If you dont get responses from me, now you know.

Blessings,
sunlover

 

[sk8Joyful]

[SIZE=-1]* GEN 20:17 And Abraham prayed unto God; and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maid-servants; and [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]they bore children.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]GEN 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.[/SIZE]

Some m.d.s would only be too glad to have a little-talk with GOD,
re what He thought He was doing, when GOD "opened-UP" wombs.

Too, there is this medical-doctrine called AGING
Lord, can you just imagine, when people find-out there's really no such thing; it's a matter of "not, healing"

[Staff Edit]

Then again, some people may wisen-up Minds can get opened! PRAISE GOD

 

[sk8Joyful]

Exodus 15:26
"If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God,
and will do that which is right in his sight, and
will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes,
I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you."

and

Exodus 21:19

"If he is able to get up again. and go about with a stick,
the other will be let off;
only he will have to give him payment for the loss of his time, and see that he is cared for till he is well."

Hm, that does not bode well, for docs whose means cause people to become diseased:
"give him payment for the loss of his time, and see that he is cared for, 'til he is well."

However, once again Clearly we can, as GOD repeatedly instructs, heal & be well

 

[sk8Joyful]

Then, there is also
Deu 28:1-13
GOD's blessings to all who "Fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today,
the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth."
however -
Look how many of their plaques Deu 28:15-68, have already befallen today's people,
Deu 28:59 - the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses.
Deu 28:61 - The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster,
(not recorded in this Book of the Law), until you are destroyed.
Deu 28:62 - You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky
will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God."

Might we best obey GOD/Christ , and live...

 

[Thekla]

An elder in Greece, who served as a priest at a major Athens hospital, was frequently consulted by doctors for advice on diagnosis and treatment. Elder Porphyrios, a Christ-loving soul, was granted by God to "see" what the actual condition and need was for patients.

 

[Thekla]

Another Greek elder, elder Paisios, recounts the following:

A Christ-loving young man was most distraught that his father-in-law had died without coming to love God, and prayed fervently on this matter. Miraculously, the father-in-law was restored to life. He was then able to turn to God.

We can neither repent nor forgive when we are dead.
This life has a purpose; when it is extended, it is for the benefit of loving Christ.