healing and forgiveness

[Merlin]

Ok, sorry.
It's true that we are fearully and wonderfully made. Very often the human body can heal on its own; blood clots after a wound, white blood cells fight infection and so on. Sometimes it can't, or something goes wrong and it needs extra help, like a tablet or a blood transfusion.

I don't personally know how much emotion plays a factor in blocking this; I suppose if a person were determined not to forgive but hang on to their bitterness to use as some kind of weapon, that could lead to physical problems. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it could cause cancer etc, not without some scientific study or paper which backed it up.

The main problem I had with the "95% of chronic illnesses are caused by unforgiveness" statement, is that if someone states in this thread that they have a chronic illness/condition, the implication is that there is a very strong likelihood that they need to forgive someone - and if you take that further, when they have forgiven, they will be healed. I do appreciate there may be more to it than just saying "sorry", but I still think it's far too simplistic.

People with chronic illnesses probably can become jealous of those without, angry that it should happen to them, bitter, etc - these are human emotions and I'd be surprised if some of them didn't feel one, or more, of these at times. That is still far from saying that a negative emotion caused the problem in the first place.

I understand your hesitation to accept 95%.
I would too if that weren't my experience.
The issue of forgiveness is usually (more than half) towards self. We tend to blame ourselves for failures. Even saved Christians can have a feeling of guilt or even self loathing.

Learned early enough in life, it might not even be noticeable, even to the person having such feelings.

like a phobia. you can live a normal life not even realising you have one until its triggered.
If not triggered, you may never know!

Nevertheless, it does interfere with our natural healing process and allow what would otherwise be a minor issue to fester and show as a chronic illness.
Diabetes is a good example.
cancer too.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I understand your hesitation to accept 95%.
I would too if that weren't my experience.
The issue of forgiveness is usually (more than half) towards self. We tend to blame ourselves for failures. Even saved Christians can have a feeling of guilt or even self loathing.

Learned early enough in life, it might not even be noticeable, even to the person having such feelings.

like a phobia. you can live a normal life not even realising you have one until its triggered.
If not triggered, you may never know!

Nevertheless, it does interfere with our natural healing process and allow what would otherwise be a minor issue to fester and show as a chronic illness.
Diabetes is a good example.
cancer too.

also true. And, starting with myself, I have many such case-studies that could be shared (omitting all the names); but hesitate - because of previous nay-sayers, in this thread.

Generally I reserve such, for people genuinely-interested in changing their lives for the better. People sufficiently sick & tired, of being sick & tired, that they no longer defend their 'chronic'-diseases with extraneous Bible-verses; but actually want to heal . They want it so badly, they will search, until they find the way - back to their GOD-created and GOD-blessed health. Hurrah! & Triple-cheers! for all such! - What a blessing to work with these people, for their Intended outcome they do get
PRAISE GOD.

 

[Merlin]

What's sad is so many Christians prefer to glorify God by dealing with their illness rather than being healthy

 

[Strong in Him]

Generally I reserve such, for people genuinely-interested in changing their lives for the better. People sufficiently sick & tired, of being sick & tired, that they no longer defend their 'chronic'-diseases with extraneous Bible-verses; but actually want to heal .

I hate statements like this. It's happened also on the "Spirit filled/charismatic" forum. We talk about healing, and some people say that the way to get healed is to do x, y or z. Someone like me points to experiences or Bible verses which say something different about healing; namely that God may say "wait", and the response is "oh you obviously don't want to be well then - you are hanging on to your sickness." For goodess sake!

. They want it so badly, they will search, until they find the way - back to their GOD-created and GOD-blessed health. Hurrah! & Triple-cheers! for all such! - What a blessing to work with these people, for their Intended outcome they do get
PRAISE GOD.

But has it not occurred to you that there comes a time when it is far better to seek the healer (God) and get to know him for who he is rather than just what he can give us - in this case a healthy body and a comfortable life? That some of us have spent so long looking inwards, to examine our faith or see if there is any sin that needs dealing with,that we are sick of it. We have spent so long listening to Christians who all have a theory about sickness - "confess your faith/sin; give thanks for healing; visit this healer" etc etc that we could be in danger of obsessing about it?

Some of us remain sick after many years. Yes it's frustrating at times, but if you spend all your time looking at the reason for the illness and telling God that you didn't deserve it to happen to you, you miss out on what he might be saying to you, and wanting to do through you in and in spite of it (maybe even because of it.)

It sounds like your god is health, a healthy body is everything and only when you have one will you give praise to God.
Did you read the verse I posted the other day about offering a sacrifice of praise? Have you read the verses in 1 Corinthians which talk about God's foolishness being wiser than human wisdom? (1 Cor 1:25)

I have M.E. Years ago, when I was "searching for health", I belonged to 2 M.E organisations, was secretary of the local M.E group and read books and magazines on managing the illness and improving your energy levels. I gave all that up after a couple of years because I was becoming too focused on M.E - in both senses of the word. I told God I didn't want to be obsessed with what was wrong with me, and started listening to what he was saying. Since then I have trained as a Methodist lay preacher (4 years), and had a part time job as a church lay worker. I still have M.E. I relate better to people at church because they are mostly elderly and have mobility problems, I talk to people around the town who also have mobilty scooters, and several people have asked me either how I can still have faith when God hasn't healed me, or have said they are encouraged to believe that if God can use me with my illness, then he can use them too.

Do I want to be healed? Do I ever! Am I going to use all my spare energy pursuing something that might give me a tad more energy? No, I'm going to trust the God who has called me to preach and called me to be a layworker, and gave me strength for both - humanly speaking I should not have been able to work 20 hours a week. God did it, he wanted me to serve him so he gave me the strength.

I do believe in miracles, I do believe God heals today ad can heal me. But HE comes first. I'm focussing on seeking first the kingdom of God. Everything else will be given to me, at some point, by the God who meets all my needs - not wants, needs. If physical healing is granted to me in this life, praise God. If it's not, praise God.

Praise God for God, not just because he gives you everything you demand from him.

 

[Strong in Him]

What's sad is so many Christians prefer to glorify God by dealing with their illness rather than being healthy

What is sad is that some of us have a testimony of how God has helped us serve him IN illness, and it's rejected by those who are healthy, because they believe that only good health can glorify him.
And what is worse is that some other Christians then make an assumption that we are not glorifying God and prefer to remain sick.

 

[Merlin]

What is sad is that some of us have a testimony of how God has helped us serve him IN illness, and it's rejected by those who are healthy, because they believe that only good health can glorify him.
And what is worse is that some other Christians then make an assumption that we are not glorifying God and prefer to remain sick.

You believe God wants you sick.
others believe God wants you well.
i am sure He will honour your desires and allow you to be however you wish to be.

 

[Strong in Him]

You believe God wants you sick.
others believe God wants you well.
i am sure He will honour your desires and allow you to be however you wish to be.

No I do not believe God wants me sick.

But I have already written an account of going to healing services and receiving a Bible verse, or word from God about perservering. I, and others, have asked many times, in faith, with thanksgiving and expectation that he will answer our prayers, that he would make me well. Yet I am still not physically healed.

SOME Christians' answer to that is along the lines of "well it's not God's fault you're not healed, therefore it must be yours", and produce a list of things I should do in order to be healed. My response is that I know that we have prayed about this, God knows we have prayed about this. He is my Lord; to say "God, I want to be healed and I expect you to give it to me now, this minute", is not submitting to his Lordship. And whatever I want, I'm not going to ask that God blesses MY ideas and MY plans - been there, done that.

If you want to interpret this as me wanting to be ill, if you want to gloss over, or ignore, the testimony I have given about God helping me IN illness, and say that he can only be glorified if that illness is taken away; go ahead. God knows what glorifies him and he is not going to let sickness (which is from the devil) remain in someone's life if it only dishonours him. He is quite able to heal me at any point.

 

[sk8Joyful]

No I do not believe God wants me sick.

Great! this is another way of saying "GOD wants! me well"

But I have already written an account of
going to healing services and
receiving a Bible verse, or word from God about perservering.
I, and others, have asked many times, in faith, with thanksgiving and expectation
that he will answer our prayers, that he would make me well. Yet I am still not physically healed.

IF what you are doing, has failed getting you the success you want,
then do something different! like
allowing yourself from arthritis, or cancer, or diabetes, etc to heal ...
because GOD *created* us this way, healing is safe 100%.

Rev-up your "Want"er, about 300%

He is my Lord; to say "God, I want to be healed and I expect you to give it to me now, this minute", is not submitting to his Lordship. And whatever I want, I'm not going to ask that God blesses MY ideas and MY plans - been there, done that.

If you want to interpret this as me wanting to be ill, if you want to gloss over, or ignore, the testimony I have given about God helping me IN illness, and say that he can only be glorified if that illness is taken away; go ahead. God knows what glorifies him and he is not going to let sickness (which is from the devil) remain in someone's life if it only dishonours him. He is quite able to heal me at any point.

Look, it's very simple: Isaiah 53.5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." <-- What, about past-tense, is there not to understand? - GOD finished His work, his part,
in
our soul's salvation: Accept the free gift.
our mind's joyfulness: Accept it.
our body's healthfulness: Accept it.

Scriptures (o/o context), does not for a healing make; and
tho we can lip-praise God while sick, it's not how God wants us to live... GOD wants us well !

Simple enuf, that Little-children I've worked with, all "got it".
Children don't make-up 69 excuses why they can't;
simply doing THEIR part, each heals exceptionally well in large part because they readily forgive.

Neither GOD, nor anyone will force you.
You Intend staying "sick"; so be it. bingo! Wish granted!

Personally, I'd rather passionately heal & how about you?
The ball's in your own court, waiting...
How differently now you gonna to play... your part

 

[Catherineanne]

Maybe it's not her who's missing the point.

Indeed not. You also are missing the point.

God help you also, therefore, if you ever fall ill.

 

[Catherineanne]

And faith will always pray "Thy will be done." God will grant us what we ask when we pray according to his will - which may not always be physical healing.

 

[Catherineanne]

The particular word, translated as healed also is used as a physical healing in other places in the bible.

Nobody is disputing the fact that God can choose to offer us physical healing. What is in dispute is whether our own lack of forgiveness towards other people results in 95% of those with chronic illnesses bringing this illness upon themselves.

Now if you can find Scripture for that position, I would be happy to read it. Otherwise, I will continue to think your attitude misguided, to say the very least. Actually, not even that. Ignorant at least, I think is more accurate.

 

[Catherineanne]

His death was for sin.
His stripes was so that we could heal.

At last I can see where this nonsense is coming from.

You are taking the two statements in Isaiah as referring to two separate events, and then predicting two separate events from them?

I think you would do well to consider the way much of the OT was written, Merlin. It very often comprises a poetic form where two lines are placed together, which look slightly different, but actually say the same thing. These lines intensify or underline the message contained within them. So when we are told:

He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities

the two mean the same thing.

Similarly with:

The punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way

Etc. If you read Isaiah with this in mind you will see that in much of the writing this kind of couplet poetic form intensifies the messages it contains.

Our healing from the wounds of Christ is not separate from our healing through his death, in other words. It is a part of the whole, and the whole is about the healing of our relationship with God.

You are not the only one to be confused by this poetic form. The gospel of Matthew has Our Lord ride into Jerusalem on a colt and a donkey, because he did not realise that in Zechariah 10 v 9 these are one and the same animal, repeated for poetic effect.

 

[Catherineanne]

His answer, or your assumption?

You said yourself he takes ten days to heal your cold.

Does this not equate to 'wait ten days'?

 

[Catherineanne]

Poor health is most often a result of disobedience. Notice I did not say always. But most often. God has His purposes.

We do know that about 97% of illness could be prevented by simple obedience to His instruction. This includes diabetes, heart disease, cancers, auto-immune disease, arthritis, etc.

Complete and utter balderdash.

Where does the Bible say any of this nonsense?

 

[Catherineanne]

cancer being one example of often not self-repairing
due to, for example, unforgiveness
interfering with the self-repair process.

There is no evidence whatever that cancer is caused by lack of forgiveness, nor that a person with cancer who chooses to forgive all of those around him will necessarily then be healed.

Therefore what you have to say here is unmitigated nonsense.

 

[Catherineanne]

People with chronic illnesses probably can become jealous of those without, angry that it should happen to them, bitter, etc - these are human emotions and I'd be surprised if some of them didn't feel one, or more, of these at times. That is still far from saying that a negative emotion caused the problem in the first place.

Exactly. Negativity is/can be a symptom, it is not proven to be a cause.

 

[Catherineanne]

Amen, sunlover.

God has given His eight laws of health. If we ignore them, we are abusing our bodies, His temple. Of course there are repercussions, consequences, for disobedience. And ignoring what He has taught us is disobedience.

Sunshine, Temperance, Air, Rest, Trust in God, Nutrition, Exercise, and Water.

Poppycock. Where does the Bible say this?

 

[Catherineanne]

Generally I reserve such, for people genuinely-interested in changing their lives for the better. People sufficiently sick & tired, of being sick & tired, that they no longer defend their 'chronic'-diseases with extraneous Bible-verses; but actually want to heal . They want it so badly, they will search, until they find the way - back to their GOD-created and GOD-blessed health. Hurrah! & Triple-cheers! for all such! - What a blessing to work with these people, for their Intended outcome they do get
PRAISE GOD.

Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are saying.

 

[Catherineanne]

What's sad is so many Christians prefer to glorify God by dealing with their illness rather than being healthy

Father, forgive.

 

[Catherineanne]

You believe God wants you sick.
others believe God wants you well.
i am sure He will honour your desires and allow you to be however you wish to be.

May the Lord have mercy on your soul.