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"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If a person is truly saved in Christ they will live a life of repentance as they grow in faith.

    After I was saved I didn't need someone to tell me to go be baptised, God told me that. What I needed was someone to tell me it was okay to wait until spring when the river wasn't frozen...

    I didn't need someone to tell me to quit smoking, God told me.

    I didn't need someone to tell me my art needed to change in tone, I recognized that straight away.

    On and on and on.

    Why? Because that is the fruit of being saved. (Past tense)

    It is Not what saves me. CHRIST saved me. Thats why I know these things and do these things... because I love Him for what He did.
     
  2. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Those who practice righteousness are righteous.
    Does this infer? ...
    Those who do NOT practice righteousness are NOT righteous.
    I say, "Yes."
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree. Habitual sinning in Christiandom is a problem and I commend you for fighting the good fight of faith on this point, brother. But there are also those who say that you cannot habitually sin, and yet they also say that a Christian will always commit some kind of serious sin again (like lusting after women, swearing, or hating others, etc.) on occasion as a matter of fact in this life. This in my view is also just as bad, too. For it is a future admittance to doing sin again as if one was still a slave to sin. Granted, I am not saying Christians cannot struggle with sin. But we should never accept sin (even occasional mortal sin) as a normal thing for our lives. Believers must fight to overcome all sin that the Bible warns with hellfire or condemnation. For we have to remember, it only took one sin from Adam for the Fall to happen. So to say, we will commit serious sin again is a wrong mindset to have in my opinion, brother. This is why I disagree with the Modern Translations saying practicing righteousness. It suggests that we can sin on occasion in the future as being okay with the Lord. I don't believe that to be the case. This is why I prefer the KJB translation on 1 John 3:7. For me in this instance, it is more accurate.
     
  4. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    What makes you think I am not aware of all the verses you posted? In fact, I am. Quite. And I still hold the views I do on salvation - not by ignoring the verses you offered, but by properly synthesizing them with the entire counsel of Scripture, understanding any particular verse or passage first and foremost in its immediate context.

    But you have a common practice - demonstrated in this very thread - of isolating a verse or passage from its immediate context! It's at least inconsistent of you to write what you do here but prooftext on a regular basis. Some would say its downright hypocritical.

    "We" don't know this. In fact, I think this is an entirely spurious idea, quite in contradiction to basic, orthodox, Christian doctrine. Believers may halt their fellowship with God, their intimate communion with Him, but they cannot undo the saving work of God that brought them into relationship with Him. Believers have a choice in the level of the former but, once accomplished, none at all in the security of the latter.

    We've had this discussion before. As I've told you in other threads in the past, the story illustrates the difference between fellowship and relationship. At no time in the parable is the Prodigal ever not his father's son. All throughout the parable, the Prodigal is confirmed in his relationship as a son to his father. And when the son returns home, his father repeatedly refers to him as his son. In what sense, then, was the son "dead"? He wasn't literally, physically dead; he wasn't dead relationally. The only thing that was "dead" (which term speaks of separation, as in many other instances in Scripture) was the Prodigal's intimate, face-to-face communion with his father. There was no fellowship between them - just as there would have been none if the son had been separated from his father by actual death. In this sense, then, the Prodigal was "dead" to his father.

    What spiritual truth does the parable communicate, then? It can't be speaking to the death of one's relationship to God the Father because such a death never occurs in the parable between the father and his son. The son is always a son to his father in the parable; his relationship to his father is always secure. The only thing in the parable that "dies" is the fellowship between father and son. It is the loss of this fellowship that is the focus of the parable, picturing the loss of an individual's fellowship, their intimate communion, with God.

    At the end of the parable of the Prodigal the restoration of fellowship - not relationship - is emphasized:

    Luke 15:21-24
    21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
    22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
    23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

    This parable spoken to Jews as it was, would have been quite scandalous. The father's behaviour, in particular, would have been thought quite appalling. His grace, and patience, and welcome to his prodigal son would have run opposite to all that the Jewish audience to whom Jesus was speaking would have expected from the father. As God's Chosen People, the Jews were in a relationship with God, though they had wandered far from Him. Jesus's parable of the Prodigal maintains the relationship of the Prodigal Son (Israel) to the father (Jehovah) and declares that although His Chosen People were, nationally, "in a far country" relative to their God, He was waiting for them to return to Him, His heart and arms open wide to receive them, should they repent of their "wandering" and come "home" to Him.

    In this regard, the parable confirmed that God's relationship to His Chosen People, wayward though they were, had not "died." What's more, God was waiting with love and mercy to receive His wayward people to Himself, and to celebrate their repentant return to fellowship with Himself.

    In light of these things, your idea that the parable teaches a saved-and-lost doctrine couldn't be more mistaken.

    James 5:19-20 (ESV)
    19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
    20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    James 5:19-20 (NASB)
    19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
    20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    James 5:19-20 (YLT)
    19 Brethren, if any among you may go astray from the truth, and any one may turn him back,
    20 let him know that he who did turn back a sinner from the straying of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

    I've posted these versions of the two verses in James 5 to show that there is a general consensus among translators that verse 19 does not say, "if any of the brethren wanders from the truth," but uses a very generic referent instead: "anyone among you."

    John, Paul, Peter and James all acknowledge that within the Early Church were false teachers, and false brethren, and carnal, spiritually-juvenile believers. (2 Corinthians 11:26; 2 Peter 2; James 4:1-4; 1 John 2:15-24) The Early Church community was not populated exclusively of truly spiritually-regenerate, born-again children of God. It is no surprise, then, that James wrote of "anyone among you" rather than of "brethren" in verse 19; for it would be these "tares" and carnal, spiritually-immature believers who would be wandering from the truth and need retrieval, not stable, mature, truly born-again children of God.

    James 5:19-20 does not, then, make your saved-and-lost case for you. Only when you add to it, subtly altering what it actually says to conform to a saved-and-lost, works-salvation perspective, can it be forced into grounding such a perspective.

    In contrast, I have had to add nothing whatever to what James wrote. He wrote "anyone" not "brethren" (as he does at least a couple of times earlier in the chapter) and that is how I understand him, not constraining his meaning, narrowing it, to fit my point of view, as you have done.

    I'm afraid not. See above.

    These are all either never truly born-again people or people who, seen through your works-salvation doctrinal lens, you are obliged to think were unsaved. As I've just shown, however, your lens is skewing your reading of Scripture, forcing you to add to it, or twist it to fit what you've taken up as a soteriological perspective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  5. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Yes, and Jesus says "every branch in Me" (John 15:1)
    who does NOT bear fruit ... gets thrown into the fire to be burned.
     
  6. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God is righteous and merciful. If there is some reason, beyond the control of the individual, where he cannot be baptized, then all is well, for God saves us by faith in Lord Jesus, even if we die and did not have the opportunity to be baptized.
     
  7. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Yes, is there a problem with all of the dire warnings
    to the churches re: losing salvation ...
    NOT knowing exactly who the epistle writer is writing to?

    Paul says he is writing to "the saints who are faithful"
    in Ephesians (see 1:1) and in Colossians (see 1:2).

    If these are not BACs, then who are they?
    Loss of salvation is threatened in both epistles.
     
  8. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    That's what it usually seems to come down to. Maybe they have a huge amount of confidence in themselves. "In me I trust".
     
  9. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The righteousness of Christ is only imparted to those who, by Faith, follow Lord Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love.

    IF this is your faith, and if you endure in the faith to the end, then you will take part in the Resurrection onto Life - guaranteed.

    For all who may disagree, read Romans 6 and read carefully. And also read: Colossians 3:1-17; Galatians 5:13-25; Ephesians 4 and so many others throughout the New Testament. See also: Revelation 3:1-5.

    Blessings to those who read their Scriptures and act accordingly.

    Blessings
     
  10. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Do you see a difference between:
    practice righteousness ...and... work righteousness (Acts 10:35)?
     
  11. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    If a non-believer can never be good enough to gain salvation, then how is it a believer can be bad enough to lose salvation?
     
  12. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Yes, God's grace (unmerited favor) comes first.
    Then, we must co-operate with God while ...
    we undergo the sanctification process unto holiness (Romans 6:16-19).
     
  13. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    What about non-believers who practice righteousness? Like someone who's of another faith and has righteousness coming out their ears, but was never born again? I find it interesting in a situation like that righteousness isn't worth a hill of beans.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    What I’m asking, again, is where in scripture can we find this neutral state that you implied we are in at the moment we put our trust in the finished work of Christ?
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’m not. Just read the text.
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    When do we then become sheep? Or vines? When do those steps happen?
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    To practice righteousness, one must first be righteous.
     
  18. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Loss of salvation is nowhere threatened anywhere in the NT. You're filtering Scripture through your S.A.L. (saved-and-lost) lens and, as a result, seeing works-salvation everywhere in Scripture. Remove your lens, though, and the S.A.L. doctrine disappears from the Bible. This is what I've been demonstrating to BibleHighlighter.
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    And further down the post I said,
    Did you read that bit?

    No, I didn't.

    No, I said in one of my posts - "and yet, Romans 10:9 says .....".
    You can't tell someone's tone of voice from a written post, but "and yet" means that I was pondering - "on the other hand", or "but this verse says ....".
    I did not say that Romans 10:9 even says that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

    Jesus saves - Jesus alone; not Jesus + anything else. Jesus said, "it is finished" on the cross - his atoning death is enough, and all that is needed to save us from eternal death and the wages of sin.

    I know what you said and I acknowledged that fact.
    No one can build a doctrine on a single verse - and I wasn't trying to. I was simply saying that in Rom 10:9 Paul speaks of how to be saved, and does not mention baptism, never mind says that it is a necessity.

    No, I didn't.
    By using the phrase "and yet" I was pondering and inviting discussion. You have no idea of my intentions and could, and can, notread my mind.

    Right, so faith in Jesus as the Son of God, confessing sin, receiving eternal life and the Holy Spirit aren't enough to save someone? (And that is a question before you accuse me of anything.)
    If an unbeliever does those things, confesses Jesus as Lord but dies before they can be baptised, God says "you're going to hell, even though you confess and trust in my Son"?

    I don't know much about how the NIV came about, but I don't believe that Christians translated it under the Holy Spirit but with an agenda to force a man made point of view.

    And I was talking about Romans 10:9.

    I never said anything about changing God's word. I was asking about those who might be unable to receive baptism or who might die before doing so. You seem to imply they would not be saved, even though they had trusted and received Jesus - I say that Jesus' atoning death is enough.

    Neither of us have any idea what a person thinks, says or prays in the moments before death - so it's not possible to answer your hypothetical scenario. None of us know how the Lord may minister to someone who is on a death bed or even in a coma.

    That's the whole point; baptism is NOT a requirement.
    Baptism is the outward sign that a person has come to faith, accepted Jesus, been born again and become a new creation. It is accompanied by public testimony of a Christian's conversion, statement of faith and then the fact of having died to sin and been raised to new life is demonstrated by the person going under the water and being brought out again. A believer does this not in order to receive forgiveness and new life, but because they have.

    EXACTLY.
    Repent and be saved NOW - and if you die in your sleep before you can be baptised, you have still repented, been saved and become a child of God.
     
  20. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    I believe in the values of the Kingdom rather than those of the world of man. Is acting under those beliefs works?
     
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