He wants EVERYONE saved?

[Hammster]

You are just playing word games. That is not what I said. Go back and read it again. You have to repent (change your mind) about something being false in order to choose to believe it to be true, or even that there is a possibility for something to be true. Don't try and play with me. I don't play games about Christ. Perhaps you should put yourself to the Test?

I'm not playing games. I'm just trying to figure out what would make someone believe something that they think is false.

 

[98cwitr]

All believers sin. In 1 John 1:8-10 John wrote that if we say we have no sin, we’re liars, and in verse 9 he commands us to seek forgiveness when we sin so we can be purified from unrighteousness. As long as we do that, the Lord sees us as if we never sinned in the first place. This is how we appear to not continue to sin.
In 2 John 8, the fact that he warned us to guard against losing what we worked for means he couldn’t have been talking about salvation because we didn’t work to get saved, it was a free gift. What we do work for is rewards and that’s what he was talking about. The teaching of Jesus can be summed up in John 3:16 and tells us that our salvation is based on belief in Him, period. This is stated repeatedly through out John’s gospel. For John to say something different in his letters would be a contradiction of the Lord’s teaching.

I read 1 John 1:8-10 to mean that if coming to Christ, we deny Him by saying we don't need Him because we haven't sin, then we are liars. I interpret this meaning because otherwise, John would completely contradict himself in 1 John 3 and 5. I wish I could say I am born-again and do not sin, but unfortunately that isn't the case for me.

Let's see the remaining context of John 3...

John 3:17-20 New International Version (NIV)

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

If we take this as literally as we take John 3:16 then those who still do evil hate Christ. Paul reiterates this in Hebrews 10:26 and goes as far to say "there is no sacrifice left." Scary stuff.

 

[Brandonspapa]

I'm not playing games. I'm just trying to figure out what would make someone believe something that they think is false.

But you see, you are working off a straw man as I never made such a statement. You are seeing what you want to see because you want to debate some nonsense that no one has said. I'm done with you!

 

[Brandonspapa]

I read 1 John 1:8-10 to mean that if coming to Christ, we deny Him by saying we don't need Him because we haven't sin, then we are liars. I interpret this meaning because otherwise, John would completely contradict himself in 1 John 3 and 5. I wish I could say I am born-again and do not sin, but unfortunately that isn't the case for me.

Let's see the remaining context of John 3...

John 3:17-20 New International Version (NIV)

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

If we take this as literally as we take John 3:16 then those who still do evil hate Christ. Paul reiterates this in Hebrews 10:26 and goes as far to say "there is no sacrifice left." Scary stuff.

Let’s apply some simple logic here. Consider these two points. 1. If the believer’s security is not eternal, how can God guarantee our inheritance from the moment we first believed in places like Ephesians 1:13-14, and claim that it’s He who makes us stand firm in 2 Cor. 1:21 and then repeat the promise of Ephesians 1 in the very next verse? And how can he claim that once He has his hands on us then no one can snatch us away from Him? (John 10:27-29)
2. Almost everyone agrees that John wrote his letters to believers, in other words people who are already saved. How can John tell believers in 1 John 1:8-10 that if we claim we haven’t sinned then we’re liars and make Jesus out to be a liar too, then promise us that if we’ll just confess our sins, God is faithful and will purify us from all unrighteousness, and then 2 chapters later say that no one born of God continues to sin?
And how can John teach that believers will no longer sin, when Paul spent most of a chapter lamenting the fact that no matter how hard he tried he couldn’t stop sinning, in fact the harder he tried, the worse he became? (Romans 7:7-25) and then tell us that because of Jesus, man is no longer condemned for his sins, that we’ve been set free from the law of sin and death, and nothing can separate us from God’s love? (Romans 8:1, 38-39) Was John implying that Paul wasn’t saved?
And where is the man or woman from any period in history who having become a believer never sinned again? Have we all been forced to forfeit our salvation? Because we’re all sinners. Everyone of us.
Simple logic tells us that John had to be talking about a particular sin, not sin in general. And that’s exactly the case. His letters were written as a warning against Gnosticism, one of the most dangerous heresies in the early church. It held that salvation didn’t come from faith but from the acquisition of secret knowledge. It also argued that if Jesus was God, he couldn’t have been a man, and if He was a man then He couldn’t have been God. 1 John 1:1, 2:22, & 4:2-3 address this issue specifically. Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and 2 Peter also speak against this early heresy. And it’s still here. Freemasonry, the New Age and Scientology are all re-packaged forms of 1st Century Gnosticism.
The denial of Eternal Security a form of bondage. What it takes for us to break this bondage is to use our powers of reason and logic to see the contradiction it presents. We have to ask ourselves if we really believe that God endured the most horrible death ever devised only to present us with a new set of even more impossible conditions for attaining eternal life. The Old Testament condemned men for their deeds, but the New Testament condemns us for our thoughts.
The proponents of conditional security have either had to surrender their own salvation or somehow exempt themselves from its conditions. Because if 1 John 3:9 has general application here’s what’s required to obey it . No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. (Matt.5, James 2) As John said, the man who claims he’s never done any of these things is a liar. But it gets worse. Slip up once and you’re out forever. (James 2:10) Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? I can’t believe so.

 

[Hammster]

But you see, you are working off a straw man as I never made such a statement. You are seeing what you want to see because you want to debate some nonsense that no one has said. I'm done with you!

Just to show that there's no straw man, here was a question I asked and your response.

So someone who thought the gospel was false, and would have no reason to believe it, can just decide to believe it? That's what it looks like you are saying.

Of course.[b/] Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not. Belief has to come out of ignorance or disbelief. With GOD, we are saved by faith. Heb 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."


Here you are saying that someone CAN willfully believe something that they think is untrue.

So where is the straw man?

 

[98cwitr]

1. Not looking to get into a OSAS debate...really would derail the thread more, but I believe in OSAS, in part because of those very verses. I think, from reading your last post, you agree with OSAS, as do I.

2. It's a process. We must first realize that we are sinners, then must repent (that is, confess), and if God is willing, then we are Baptized (by Him in Spirit), and reborn. This is how I read John's Epistle, as the process and how to recognize the evidence of the saved. John makes several independent points in the first chapter

If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[every] sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Onto chapter 2

If anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Then to chapter 3

6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.


See the process? See the transformation? What John is outlining here is the sanctifying work of the Spirit that dwells within the elect.

Otherwise, continuing in sin not only contradicts these verses, but to then say "While I still sin I am justified" is just like saying "I am licensed to sin, since none of it counts anymore." Just my .02.

@your last comment: All things are possible with God. We just have to faith enough to believe the Promise.

 

[Brandonspapa]

Otherwise, continuing in sin not only contradicts these verses, but to then say "While I still sin I am justified" is just like saying "I am licensed to sin, since none of it counts anymore." Just my .02.

No true Christian thinks that way. Although we continue to sin, for we still have a sin nature, we confess our sins, which brings us back into fellowship with GOD and allows us to receive the blessings and promises that HE made toward us as HIS Children and fellow Heirs in Christ. Although our salvation is based on what we believe and not what we do, no Christian can forever practice inequity and truly be saved. Followers of Christ cannot believe that they have a "license to sin." It does count because we loose the blessing and promises of GOD now and we will loose rewards at the Burma Seat judgement for how we behaved while here on earth.

 

[Avid]

Do these people who refuse to choose God believe the Gospel to be true?

There is an example of what I said in Acts. Simon the Sorcerer believed, but that was obviously not according to saving faith. Peter pronounced his doom, giving him instructions of how to pray about it, which immediately he refused, and sought a different remedy.

Acts 8:9-24

 

[mikedsjr]

One can make a case for Calvinism and Arminianism in the scriptures. This is one of the mysteries of the Bible. Hank Hannegraf once said that the two views are liked two parallel lines going off in the distance, but never meeting.

I might agree if you are referring to classical Arminianism. But a great majority claiming Arminianism as their homeland are boating in semi-pelegians river trying to decide whether to dock over Arminianism or the land of pelegianism.

Both classical Arminianism and Calvinism affirm man has no capacity to save themselves apart from God(total depravity). This is not how modern Arminianist act. They demonstrate a view man are not dead in sin, requiring grace to resurrect them alive to make a choice, as classical Arminianist would argue, but just have a sickness called sin and can respond to the gospel, at which time God gives his grace.

 

[98cwitr]

No true Christian thinks that way.

What about one who is coming to Christ?

"Christian can forever practice inequity and truly be saved. Followers of Christ cannot believe that they have a "license to sin.""

 

[Brandonspapa]

What about one who is coming to Christ?

"Christian can forever practice inequity and truly be saved. Followers of Christ cannot believe that they have a "license to sin.""

I said "no" Christian. One who is "coming to Christ" may at first believe that, but usually young Christians are on milk and not meat, don't understand "Eternal Security" and what it means, (some mature Christians don't either) or have the knowledge of scripture to be able to discern it's meaning. For example, they may not know about reading scripture in context, or that scripture cannot contradict itself as it may appear to do with certain scriptures until context and discernment is applied.

 

[98cwitr]

I said "no" Christian. One who is "coming to Christ" may at first believe that, but usually young Christians are on milk and not meat, don't understand "Eternal Security" and what it means, (some mature Christians don't either) or have the knowledge of scripture to be able to discern it's meaning. For example, they may not know about reading scripture in context, or that scripture cannot contradict itself as it may appear to do with certain scriptures until context and discernment is applied.

Got you. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[FredVB]

what would make someone believe something that they think is false

Maybe there is nothing in the normal flow of things that would have someone start believing anything that they thought was false, and so it would never happen, although I think myself as more open-minded and have changed my thinking on a number of things with coming to significant change. You know they say there are no atheists in a foxhole at a war zone. Crises for me too prepared me to come to some changes. Remember Paul in the Bible, who is a real example of someone coming to completely turning around from what was believed. So Yahweh God might cause things in one's life to change what was believed. But yet some do stay stubborn, and many more of us have a tendency for that, so this could be understood. God will be gracious to any with giving enough opportunities. But when after all some will never repent so as to turn to God's ways in their lives, God may give up on them, and let them fall into delusions, errors, and naughtiness if it suits God's plan, as some good that helps some others comes from that, though any of us, who do not see with God's perspective, won't perceive that.

 

[Avid]

1. Not looking to get into a OSAS debate...really would derail the thread more, but I believe in OSAS, in part because of those very verses. I think, from reading your last post, you agree with OSAS, as do I.

2. It's a process. We must first realize that we are sinners, then must repent (that is, confess), and if God is willing, then we are Baptized (by Him in Spirit), and reborn. This is how I read John's Epistle, as the process and how to recognize the evidence of the saved. John makes several independent points in the first chapter

If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[every] sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Onto chapter 2

If anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Then to chapter 3

6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.


See the process? See the transformation? What John is outlining here is the sanctifying work of the Spirit that dwells within the elect.

Otherwise, continuing in sin not only contradicts these verses, but to then say "While I still sin I am justified" is just like saying "I am licensed to sin, since none of it counts anymore." Just my .02.

@your last comment: All things are possible with God. We just have to faith enough to believe the Promise.

What you say is important for people to understand. To take it the way some have indicated is to misunderstand by reason of making certain assumptions that are not true.

To be of the world, to love the world and the things in the world is a mark of those who know not the work of God in their hearts. Their heart is no different than any other person (even if they call themselves a Christian,) and they are motivated by the same things as every other person on this Earth. The person in whose heart the LORD has worked does not desire the same things, thus he no longer pursues them. In this confusion are many who claim Christianity who become Libertines, because they think God freed them so they could do as they please here, in this life.

Romans 6
1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
​

Our liberty in Christ is to live without fear of God's judgment for what we do, because He is directing us, and teaching us. In none of the passages of scripture I cited is there any suggestion of LEGALISM. I'm not suggesting that this is done to earn anything from God. It is a product of the work of God in the hearts of men that brings forth good works from the life of one who is saved from SIN, SELF and from Hell. If these good works are not to be found, it is likely the work of God is not performed in the heart.

Holiness is a state in the heart of the person in whom God has worked by His grace. To be of the world, to love the world and the things in the world is a mark of those who know not the work of God in their hearts. Their heart is no different than any other person and is motivated by the same things. The person in whose heart the LORD has worked does not desire the same things.

I John 5
18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
​

Scriptures of the Bible show that this is the work of God, and not to have it shows that the work of God is not in us. Let us not put opinion above the scriptures of the word of God.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe there is nothing in the normal flow of things that would have someone start believing anything that they thought was false, and so it would never happen, although I think myself as more open-minded and have changed my thinking on a number of things with coming to significant change. You know they say there are no atheists in a foxhole at a war zone. Crises for me too prepared me to come to some changes. Remember Paul in the Bible, who is a real example of someone coming to completely turning around from what was believed. So Yahweh God might cause things in one's life to change what was believed. But yet some do stay stubborn, and many more of us have a tendency for that, so this could be understood. God will be gracious to any with giving enough opportunities. But when after all some will never repent so as to turn to God's ways in their lives, God may give up on them, and let them fall into delusions, errors, and naughtiness if it suits God's plan, as some good that helps some others comes from that, though any of us, who do not see with God's perspective, won't perceive that.

That didn't answer the question. In fact, I'm not sure what question you are supposedly answering.

 

[Job8]

Now that is a profound question....

Or is it a stupid question? The offer of salvation is to all humanity but there is a condition attached -- OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL. Therefore God is not disappointed in the least.

He already knows that only some will obey the Gospel, but even that number is a countless number. Unless there is genuine repentance and genuine faith, the Gospel is of no avail. Thus the Lord separates the wheat from the tares, and He already knows who will believe and who will not. How can anyone even talk so foolishly about God being "disappointed"? That is actually a mockery of His grace.

 

[Hammster]

Or is it a stupid question? The offer of salvation is to all humanity but there is a condition attached -- OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL. Therefore God is not disappointed in the least.

He already knows that only some will obey the Gospel, but even that number is a countless number. Unless there is genuine repentance and genuine faith, the Gospel is of no avail. Thus the Lord separates the wheat from the tares, and He already knows who will believe and who will not. How can anyone even talk so foolishly about God being "disappointed"? That is actually a mockery of His grace.

I think, rather, a mockery of His grace is when folks like you make it conditional.

 

[Job8]

I think, rather, a mockery of His grace is when folks like you make it conditional.

It's not folks like us who make it conditional. It is God who makes His offer of salvation conditional (Acts 20:21), and available to all who will obey the Gospel:

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD (Acts 17:30;3:19)
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: ... Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (Acts 16:30,31; Rom 10:9,10)
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house... That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[ServantJohn]

Please help me reconcile the following two verses

2 Peter 3:9
Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
New International Version (NIV)
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

How can you reconcile "everyone" in the 2 Peter 3 verse with God assurance of condemnation in the 2 Thess. 2 verse?

Greek word used for everyone in 2 Peter is:

πᾶς,a \{pas}
1) individually 1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively 2a) some of all types

The 2a definition seems to allow us to reconcile both verses. Just a thought.

We also see "anyone," which is

τίς,ri \{tis}
1) a certain, a certain one 2) some, some time, a while

So could this be properly translated as:

Instead he is patient with you, not wanting any [of you] to perish, but [all of you] to come to repentance.

Then the question is, who is the audience?!

Sorry if someone has already said this, but I tend not to read every single post once a thread has gotten this long.
"[T]hey refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion." The strong delusion comes after their refusal to "love the truth and so be saved", not before.

 

[Hammster]

It's not folks like us who make it conditional. It is God who makes His offer of salvation conditional (Acts 20:21), and available to all who will obey the Gospel:

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD (Acts 17:30;3:19)
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: ... Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (Acts 16:30,31; Rom 10:9,10)
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house... That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Actually, it is folks like you who make it conditional by taking verses like this out of context and slapping them together like its some sort of exegesis.