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He wants EVERYONE saved?

Job8

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Actually, it is folks like you who make it conditional by taking verses like this out of context and slapping them together like its some sort of exegesis.
This comment is a glaring example of Christian unbelief -- rejecting the plain meaning and truth of Scripture and denying the power thereof. To add insult to injury, it is being claimed that the Scriptures have been "taken out of context". That is really pathetic. To reiterate:

1. Does God want everyone to be saved? Yes
2. Does God have conditions in order to be saved? Yes
3. What are the conditions for salvation? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
4. Will all obey the Gospel and meet the conditions? No
5. Will only some be saved? Yes
 
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Hammster

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This comment is a glaring example of Christian unbelief -- rejecting the plain meaning and truth of Scripture and denying the power thereof. To add insult to injury, it is being claimed that the Scriptures have been "taken out of context". That is really pathetic. To reiterate:

1. Does God want everyone to be saved? Yes
2. Does God have conditions in order to be saved? Yes
3. What are the conditions for salvation? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
4. Will all obey the Gospel and meet the conditions? No
5. Will only some be saved? Yes

When you feel like exegeting your proof texts, let us know.
 
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agua

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Just to show that there's no straw man, here was a question I asked and your response.


Of course.[b/] Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not. Belief has to come out of ignorance or disbelief. With GOD, we are saved by faith. Heb 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."


Here you are saying that someone CAN willfully believe something that they think is untrue.

So where is the straw man?


I think you have misrepresented the premise, maybe innocently maybe not. Can you highlight the specific words that suggest a person can willfully believe something that is untrue, from the quote ?
 
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Hammster

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I think you have misrepresented the premise, maybe innocently maybe not. Can you highlight the specific words that suggest a person can willfully believe something that is untrue, from the quote ?

Is this the quote you are referring to?

Of course. Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not. Belief has to come out of ignorance or disbelief. With GOD, we are saved by faith. Heb 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

If so, this quote puts the decision to believe squarely with ones will ("Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not."). This would mean that if you thought that the gospel was false, by your own will you could just "decide" to believe it is true. And, of course, decide to believe it's false later.
 
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twin1954

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This comment is a glaring example of Christian unbelief -- rejecting the plain meaning and truth of Scripture and denying the power thereof. To add insult to injury, it is being claimed that the Scriptures have been "taken out of context". That is really pathetic. To reiterate:

1. Does God want everyone to be saved? Yes
2. Does God have conditions in order to be saved? Yes
3. What are the conditions for salvation? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
4. Will all obey the Gospel and meet the conditions? No
5. Will only some be saved? Yes
So your premise is that man must save himself?
If God wants everyone saved then He is a failure isn't He?
If the conditions you describe are up to man to meet then how is he able to meet them seeing he is dead in trespasses and sin?
What is it that makes the difference between the sinner who is saved and the sinner who isn't? Why do some believe and other don't?

You can't get around the logical conclusions that your premise leads to. If you say that faith is not a work then you must explain how one man has faith and another doesn't. Which of course you can't without making the difference man's will and work.

God's conditions for the salvation of sinner were that sin be put away by a fit sacrifice and that righteousness be brought in by a perfect man. Those conditions were met by Christ alone. Faith and repentance are both described in the Scriptures as gifts from God never conditions to be met by man.

Nothing is being misrepresented here but simple truth being told.
 
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Job8

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So your premise is that man must save himself?
Sinners must respond to the Gospel. But salvation is supernatural, and salvation is strictly a work of God.

If God wants everyone saved then He is a failure isn't He?
That's a good way to twist things. You could say the same about sin entering into the world, or Satan becoming the arch-enemy of God and man.

If the conditions you describe are up to man to meet then how is he able to meet them seeing he is dead in trespasses and sin?
That is why God has given the Gospel and that is why the Holy Spirit convicts sinners. THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

What is it that makes the difference between the sinner who is saved and the sinner who isn't? Why do some believe and other don't?
That is none of our business. That is strictly God's business.

God's conditions for the salvation of sinner were that sin be put away by a fit sacrifice and that righteousness be brought in by a perfect man. Those conditions were met by Christ alone.
That is the redemptive finished work of Christ. No one is saved automatically.

Faith and repentance are both described in the Scriptures as gifts from God never conditions to be met by man.
Then why does God COMMAND repentance, and COMMAND obedience to the Gospel? Why would He not simply save everyone without any conditions, since God is no respecter of persons?
 
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agua

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If so, this quote puts the decision to believe squarely with ones will ("Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not."). This would mean that if you thought that the gospel was false, by your own will you could just "decide" to believe it is true. And, of course, decide to believe it's false later.

This isn't a good representation of the possible implications of the process involved in a change of belief. For instance let us start with position 1 and position 2.

Position 1 -> Investigation of position 2 -> belief in position 2 and rejection of position 1.

It's a choice to investigate position 2 and then also a choice to accept that the data supports position 2 over position 1, and hence change belief. Do you accept this model ?

I'm confident this is what Brandonspapa imlied, and not the parody you've presented.


 
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Hammster

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This isn't a good representation of the possible implications of the process involved in a change of belief. For instance let us start with position 1 and position 2.

Position 1 -> Investigation of position 2 -> belief in position 2 and rejection of position 1.

It's a choice to investigate position 2 and then also a choice to accept that the data supports position 2 over position 1, and hence change belief. Do you accept this model ?

I'm confident this is what Brandonspapa imlied, and not the parody you've presented.



Okay, let's go with that for a moment. The implication is that all one needs to believe the gospel that they once rejected is more investigation. Is that your position?
 
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twin1954

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Sinners must respond to the Gospel. But salvation is supernatural, and salvation is strictly a work of God.
Sorry but that doesn't compute. If man must do something in order to be saved he saves himself. There is no way around it according to your premise.

But according to the Scriptures man responds to the Gospel because He has been born of God. John1:12-13, 1John 5:1


That's a good way to twist things. You could say the same about sin entering into the world, or Satan becoming the arch-enemy of God and man.
Not a twist at all it is a simple logical conclusion. If God wants what He cannot have and cannot fulfill His desire He is just like a man and is an utter failure. Again there is no way around such a conclusion.

Sin entered the world because God ordained that it should. God has wrapped up His glory in being merciful to chosen sinners, Ex.33:18-19. If sin had not entered the world, as God ordained, then there would have been no need for Christ. God, in His infinite wisdom, determined the best way to glorify Himself was in the glorious mercy to chosen sinners by the Son in whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in a body. Read Col. chapter 1 and think it over very carefully.


That is why God has given the Gospel and that is why the Holy Spirit convicts sinners. THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.
True but you leave out an important part. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation because it is the Spirit who calls and gives life and faith through the Gospel. It has nothing to do with the one preaching the Gospel or how he presents it. Again read 1Cor. 1 and 2 very carefully. Engage your mind when you do.

I preach the Gospel precisely because I believe it, as opposed to me and my presentation, is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. Conversely, according to the Arminian view the Gospel isn't the power of God unto salvation to them that believe but the wisdom and eloquence of the man preaching it.


That is none of our business. That is strictly God's business.
That is no answer. It is a legitimate question that you cannot answer if your premise is correct. Actually you can answer it but it destroys your premise if you do.


That is the redemptive finished work of Christ. No one is saved automatically.
So then man must apply the finished work of Christ to himself when he believes? Again that is man saving himself. Perhaps you should study 2Tim 1:9-10 deeply.


Then why does God COMMAND repentance, and COMMAND obedience to the Gospel?
Because it is only reasonable. Unbelief is insanity. God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe because it is the only proper way man should act. But God's command of obedience to the Gospel in no way implies ability to be obedient. When the King commands you disobey at your own peril. That is exactly what Adam did. I am amazed at the thought that we, who have had sin permeate our being from the day we were born think that we can do what Adam could not. He was created in the image of God as a brilliant man and given dominion over all of God's creation yet he could not sustain. How in the world could a man who is sin in every fiber of his being?

Why would He not simply save everyone without any conditions, since God is no respecter of persons?
God being no respecter of persons doesn't mean that He views all men alike it means that He doesn't take into account riches, station, or intelligence. Actually read the context of the places where that is given in the Scriptures. To apply those words in the way you do is to rip the meaning from them according to their context. It is to apply your presupposition over them and read your meaning into them.

I ask that you not reject what I am telling you outright but that you actually consider what I am saying and look at the Scriptures to see if these things be true.
 
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Avid

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... God being no respecter of persons doesn't mean that He views all men alike it means that He doesn't take into account riches, station, or intelligence. Actually read the context of the places where that is given in the Scriptures. To apply those words in the way you do is to rip the meaning from them according to their context. It is to apply your presupposition over them and read your meaning into them...
Have had this discussion with many over the years. It is amazing how man likes to put his own spin on every word of God in scripture.

The problem with the Church, when they were warned NOT to have respect to persons, was that they regarded "riches, station, or intelligence" as the reason of how they would treat someone. A poor person, or one who had not much influence was not given much value, and told to accept a lower position and a lower seat!

I Corimthians 1
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

James 2
1 ¶ My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
As long as the outward signs of prominence in this world have such an effect on people, they tend to apply it to all situations, even in the Church! The OLDEST BOOK of the Bible, Job, dealt SPECIFICALLY with the idea that, what happens to a person - good or bad - was directly related to how God thought of that person - good or bad. Job was terribly tried with tests and tribulations specifically because of God's good report on his behalf.

Job 1
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Let us take note of how God regards people, and how the proper context of God's word makes it readily understandable.
 
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agua

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Okay, let's go with that for a moment. The implication is that all one needs to believe the gospel that they once rejected is more investigation. Is that your position?

Yahweh said that anyone who truly seeks Him, will find Him; so yes if a person receives the Gospel message ( correctly investigates and applies the tenets of repentance and submission ) then they will believe.

As per the parable of the sower this investigation must include understanding to be successful, as in any
investigation.

Mat 13:23 KJV But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


What do you suggest ?
 
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Hammster

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Yahweh said that anyone who truly seeks Him, will find Him; so yes if a person receives the Gospel message ( correctly investigates and applies the tenets of repentance and submission ) then they will believe.

As per the parable of the sower this investigation must include understanding to be successful, as in any
investigation.

Mat 13:23 KJV But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


What do you suggest ?

It's interesting that you brought up the soils.

Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 13:8 - ESVBible.org

Who made the soil good, the soil itself, or some outside force?
 
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agua

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It's interesting that you brought up the soils.

Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 13:8 - ESVBible.org

Who made the soil good, the soil itself, or some outside force?

I think you will need to address my points, before moving on. If you wish to preach a doctrine go ahead, but indulge the converstaion, as well.
 
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Hammster

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I think you will need to address my points, before moving on. If you wish to preach a doctrine go ahead, but indulge the converstaion, as well.

I'm not moving on. You brought up the soils, didn't you? That's what I'm addressing.
 
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Hammster

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Do you agree that the Gospel must be understood to be investigated properly ?

We can apply questions to questions, if you like.

No, I don't agree.

I answered yours.
 
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agua

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No, I don't agree.

I answered yours.

Ok firstly I'll ask for clarification, considering Jesus words.

Mat 13:18-19 KJV Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. (19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:23 KJV But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Now to answer your question. Jesus said that the person who receives the Gospel into good ground is he that understands it. ie. understanding implies good ground which is analogous to the humble and receptive condition of the seeker.

What do you suggest the good soil implies, and why ?
 
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Hammster

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Ok firstly I'll ask for clarification, considering Jesus words.

Mat 13:18-19 KJV Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. (19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:23 KJV But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Now to answer your question. Jesus said that the person who receives the Gospel into good ground is he that understands it. ie. understanding implies good ground which is analogous to the humble and receptive condition of the seeker.

What do you suggest the good soil implies, and why ?

You asked if the Gospel needed to be understood to be investigated. Given the nature of your question, I have to assume that's your view (unless it was a totally random question). Earlier you said

"...if a person receives the Gospel message ( correctly investigates and applies the tenets of repentance and submission ) then they will believe."

So, as I'm trying to understand your view, I need clarification. Which comes first, understanding the Gospel, or investigating the Gospel?
 
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agua

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You asked if the Gospel needed to be understood to be investigated. Given the nature of your question, I have to assume that's your view (unless it was a totally random question). Earlier you said

"...if a person receives the Gospel message ( correctly investigates and applies the tenets of repentance and submission ) then they will believe."

So, as I'm trying to understand your view, I need clarification. Which comes first, understanding the Gospel, or investigating the Gospel?

You didn't address my questions. I'm ok if you ask another question in the same post as you address/answer mine.
 
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Hammster

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You didn't address my questions. I'm ok if you ask another question in the same post as you address/answer mine.

I have to understand your position before I can address it. Plus, you never answered my question about the good soil.
 
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