He wants EVERYONE saved?

[classicalhero]

Please help me reconcile the following two verses

2 Peter 3:9
Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
New International Version (NIV)
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

How can you reconcile "everyone" in the 2 Peter 3 verse with God assurance of condemnation in the 2 Thess. 2 verse?

Greek word used for everyone in 2 Peter is:

πᾶς,a \{pas}
1) individually 1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively 2a) some of all types

The 2a definition seems to allow us to reconcile both verses. Just a thought.

We also see "anyone," which is

τίς,ri \{tis}
1) a certain, a certain one 2) some, some time, a while

So could this be properly translated as:

Instead he is patient with you, not wanting any [of you] to perish, but [all of you] to come to repentance.

Then the question is, who is the audience?!

You are confusing the times these verses happen. The Peter passage is talking about now when God's mercy i still around. The Paul passage is talking o a time when God's mercy has run out and now his wrath and judgement is upon the people.

 

[Andrew12]

So what make you different from those who don't choose to repent and obey?

I am different because I chose to accept Christ. Had my circumstances or prior decisions been a little different I may have made a different decision.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

 

[Hammster]

I am different because I chose to accept Christ. Had my circumstances or prior decisions been a little different I may have made a different decision.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

That didn't answer the question. What makes you different?

 

[twin1954]

I am different because I chose to accept Christ. Had my circumstances or prior decisions been a little different I may have made a different decision.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

So you saved yourself when others have not. That is the logical conclusion to your statement.

 

[Andrew12]

So you saved yourself when others have not. That is the logical conclusion to your statement.

by no means is it logical that I saved myself. I am saved by Grace offered by God for the redemption of sins.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

 

[Hammster]

by no means is it logical that I saved myself. I am saved by Grace offered by God for the redemption of sins.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

Still looking for what makes you different from the lost.

 

[Andrew12]

I'm not different. I simply made a different choice than some have.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

 

[98cwitr]

I think what we're getting at is that something had to influence your "decision" (if you want to call it that), whereas said influence was withheld from others. Again, Proverbs 16:9 and 20:24.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

I'm not different. I simply made a different choice than some have.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

Amen, good sir. Glad you did. Don't let faulty human logic (as all human logic is) dissuade you from spreading God's love for all.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not different. I simply made a different choice than some have.

Andrew, Voice in the Wilderness Ministries

Okay, why did you choose good and others don't?

 

[Avid]

Originally Posted by 98cwitr
Please help me reconcile the following two verses

2 Peter 3:9
Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
New International Version (NIV)
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
--- etc.---

Then the question is, who is the audience?!

Take notice that neither verse is all inclusive. "Everyone" in II Peter is referring to the fact that God would prefer all listen to Him, not go the way of Adam the First, and seek the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. In II Thessalonians, we see there are people who have REFUSED.

This is referencing the people who had refused, and then "The coming of the lawless one" changes the times. These people might have (as some speculate) been awakened at the fulfillment of the scriptures, but God has given up on them.

There is much more about that in scripture than most people like to consider. It is mentioned in a number of places that God has a limit to how much He allws, and how long He will suffer the rebellious to continue their rebellion. This is even part of the title of a good book written in 1688:

T H E
BARREN FIG-TREE;

OR,

THE DOOM AND DOWNFALL OF THE FRUITLESS PROFESSOR:

SHOWING, THAT THE DAY OF GRACE MAY BE PAST WITH HIM
LONG BEFORE HIS LIFE IS ENDED;

THE SIGNS ALSO BY WHICH SUCH MISERABLE MORTALS MAY BE KNOWN.

BY JOHN BUNYAN
​

You can see that the scriptures are to be taken in their proper context. EVERYONE is by no means intended to include ALWAYS or FOREVER. II Thess., also, includes the description that these people have refused to believe and delighted in the very things that took them away from God.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

There are certainly people who refuse to choose God. No doubt there. That doesn't speak to God not wishing they would. Otherwise the celebration for the one coming to repentance would be a vain exercise.

 

[Hammster]

There are certainly people who refuse to choose God. No doubt there. That doesn't speak to God not wishing they would. Otherwise the celebration for the one coming to repentance would be a vain exercise.

Do these people who refuse to choose God believe the Gospel to be true?

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Do these people who refuse to choose God believe the Gospel to be true?

I guess we'd have to ask them. I'd imagine they intellectually understand the Gospel but fall into the "I never knew you" category, but that's my guess at 4:30 in the morning. I'll be back next week to discuss further.

 

[Avid]

Do these people who refuse to choose God believe the Gospel to be true?

This is a good question, but goes specifically to the concern over what people use as a definition of the word, "BELIEVE."

It has long been a concern that the use of this word makes it seem as though anyone who doesn't argue against the existence of God, or His only begotten son, BELIEVES, and is thus saved according to scripture.

The use of that word when included in the English translations of the Bible 400 years ago was much more than that.

 

[Hammster]

This is a good question, but goes specifically to the concern over what people use as a definition of the word, "BELIEVE."

It has long been a concern that the use of this word makes it seem as though anyone who doesn't argue against the existence of God, or His only begotten son, BELIEVES, and is thus saved according to scripture.

The use of that word when included in the English translations of the Bible 400 years ago was much more than that.

I often see the argument that some choose to believe while others don't. So it comes down to, can we choose what we believe?

 

[98cwitr]

I often see the argument that some choose to believe while others don't. So it comes down to, can we choose what we believe?

If God controls a man's heart, where I find a ton of Scriptural references that says He not only can but does, then my answer would be no.

 

[Brandonspapa]

GOD wants everyone to be saved. But HE gave everyone free will. The right to reject HIS free gift of salvation. Just as he hardened the heart of Pharaoh (but only after he refused to obey the GOD of Heaven), HE has partially hardened the hearts of the Jews (for rejecting the Messiah) while he takes a people unto HIMSELF (the Church). After the Rapture, GOD will harden the hearts of those who still still refuse to accept HIS free gift; giving them exactly what they want. So, I believe that after the Church is gone, those who have not firmly rejected Christ can still be saved (hence the Tribulation martyrs), but those who have firmly rejected Christ despite the proof before them, will lose their ability to be saved and will suffer the same fate as Satan, whom they will have chosen over Christ.

 

[98cwitr]

a god who allows "free will" is a monster...it's the same as saying you'd let your child run, knowing they will be killed, out into a busy street without lifting a finger to stop them just for the sake of saying "they must freely choose." 1 Cor 13 though says that Love (ie: God) always protects...and thankfully that's the God we worship God ALWAYS protects His children.

 

[Hammster]

GOD wants everyone to be saved. But HE gave everyone free will. The right to reject HIS free gift of salvation. Just as he hardened the heart of Pharaoh (but only after he refused to obey the GOD of Heaven), HE has partially hardened the hearts of the Jews (for rejecting the Messiah) while he takes a people unto HIMSELF (the Church). After the Rapture, GOD will harden the hearts of those who still still refuse to accept HIS free gift; giving them exactly what they want. So, I believe that after the Church is gone, those who have not firmly rejected Christ can still be saved (hence the Tribulation martyrs), but those who have firmly rejected Christ despite the proof before them, will lose their ability to be saved and will suffer the same fate as Satan, whom they will have chosen over Christ.

Do those who reject the free gift believe that it is indeed a free gift, but just don't want it? Or do they not not believe the gospel at all?