He wants EVERYONE saved?

[Avid]

I do wish to look deeper and totally agree that we are born into Adam.

In the things that bother you, that you would like to be free from, and that you are sure keep you from enjoying what you are convinced is a full Christian experience, would you think that the person who has been where you are, and has FOUND that freedom, is your enemy? (not saying you think this, but want you to consider the point.)

Many years ago, when these things were an abiding concern for me, I found a very few people (from my parents' generation) that had experienced this. It became clear that one lowly person who had been through this and could understand what scripture said about it was more valuable than all the Theologians, Bible Professors, and Doctors of Divinity I could ever find - put together! When there was one of these people who had an advanced degree, their writings were valuable to me, and some I found in books and sermons. One of the best EVER was Jonathan Edwards (1703−1758) who lived in the Northeast (before this was the US.)

I found that I needed to read and understand quite a bit from others before I could get the deep spiritual importance conveyed in some of what he wrote. One of his sermons is about the most famous in the world, and you can read it at the following link if you are not already familiar with it.

Sinners in the hands of an Angry God

If all you get is what the world thinks of these things, you have either NO foundation, or a shaky one at best. Jesus warned of building a house on the sand without a foundation. He contrasted that with building your house by first, digging deep, and founding it upon a rock. When given a choice, make the foundation of your salvation the truth of the scriptures, and not man's version of it.

Luke 6
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Notes from the Geneva Bible:
Affliction at length discerns true godliness from false and feigned godliness.
​

As was said before, the salvation of our souls is worked out by God Himself for our eternal good. As surely as He did it for man, He requires man to seek it, ask for it, and endure certain things because of it. This is not a matter of earning salvation any more than a leper or blind person who asked Jesus for healing had done anything that merited their deliverance. However, there was a requirement of the smallest nature in most or all of the cases. It usually was a matter of asking or even begging. Sometimes, a small matter of obedience was required.

Luke 4
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
​

Here, the leper was expected to perform small act of obedience which was offensive to him. That seems to be the main type of obedience that is required. Also, the rich young ruler was told what he needed to do, and was grieved.

Matthew 19
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mark 10
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
​

Naaman the Syrian was simply offended, but the rich young ruler was grieved, because of his love for the possessions that seemed to have owned him. The question for each of us is "What owns you?"

Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
​

If you know anything about the Bible, you recognize that you cannot serve two masters. You cannot be true to two different entities, but will prefer one above the other. (Matt.6:24, Like 16:13) If you are dedicated to serving the flesh, you cannot serve the Spirit. If you love the things of the flesh, you will HATE the things of the Spirit.

Romans 6
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
​

If we follow after, have affection for, and serve the things of the flesh, they are our god, and we are in opposition to the one true God, the Father of lights. (James 1:17)

I John 2
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
​

These lusts and affections must be nailed to the cross. They are in the way of us doing or having anything that is worthwhile before the LORD. We cannot understand spiritual things, and it causes great pain and anger in the soul. Any truth of the scriptures is an attack upon our person, because our unregenerate human nature holds the EGO to our bosom, and we will not let go of it.

The scripture says these things must be crucified, and the EGO is fighting that. The EGO is essentially the same as the fallen nature of man, the old man, our old nature, the flesh, and other things spoken of specifically in the scriptures. There are tactics for avoiding these passages, and that includes the practice of lashing back at those who believe the scriptures. The problem of preaching and teaching over the last hundrd to a hundred and fifty years, is that they avoid the truth of the scriptures in this manner.

Another tactic is to cast dispersions upon the names of the holy men of scripture who endured much more than we have. This tactic was used by the three friends that came to "comfort" Job. He told them plainly they were barking up the wrong tree by trying to accuse him of sin or folly. Abraham was accused of sin that was no sin, just so these people can say that even the best of people don't find freedom to walk blameless before the LORD. Others include the Apostle Paul. It was bad enough that he was attacked (typically, we have no idea what it means to be attacked, unless we have endured what this Apostle did) in his day by the religious and pagan forces. He has since been labeled as not being victorious over the flesh.

A sincere soul will look to the scriptures and believe what God says, even when it smacks-down the religion we hold and the doctrines we depend upon to prop-up the ego. God usually must first knock out these props, and cause man to face Him on His terms, before we see any humility from most people, especially churchgoing people.

We can spend years covering these things, as I did many years ago. For me, it took years to UNLEARN what I thought I knew about God, the Bible, righteousness and salvation. I had instinctively rejected certain things meant for my spiritual good, because of lies that had been told to me all my life (mostly in Church.) Now, people think they will educate me to revisit those lies, and hold them to my bosom yet again. I do not like the idea of facing God's judgment and its penalty, for abandoning what He took such care to show me.

.

 

[twin1954]

Got Bible Verses? "God and sinners reconcile".

How many would it take to convince you? One, ten a hundred?

 

[twin1954]

I do wish to look deeper and totally agree that we are born into Adam.

Have you ever heard of Federal Headship? Rom. 5:12-19 is a good place to learn about it. If you want I can help explain it to you.

 

[98cwitr]

In the things that bother you, that you would like to be free from, and that you are sure keep you from enjoying what you are convinced is a full Christian experience, would you think that the person who has been where you are, and has FOUND that freedom, is your enemy? (not saying you think this, but want you to consider the point.)
.

I dont think so at all, no. I agree that those who have found such things have much more knowledge than any teacher or professor of theology (unless that teacher or professor has also found it!). While your post contains so much truth, Im not sure it addresses the nature of man and his ability to choose. You spoke about nailing the things that keep us from God to the Cross. Do we do the nailing?

 

[Avid]

... You spoke about nailing the things that keep us from God to the Cross. Do we do the nailing?

Excellent question! This gets to the heart of the matter.

God's word requires this to be done, and always it is something we do actively, and even DAILY. We are told that:

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I Corinthians 9
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I Corinthians 15
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
​

Notice that this is done with God's help, and by His Holy Spirit. People in some religions/denominations imagine wrongly that they are to actually have themselves nailed to a wooden cross, or beat themselves. That is all a fleshly outward show. It must be done in the heart, and it must be done with God's Holy Spirit.

There is a purification that comes with this. We are told to be pure as Jesus was pure. That flies in the face of those who deny that Jesus is a complete Savior by saying this is not done. They do not understand it, so they make it a mystical thing that will only happen after we are out of this life.

I John 3
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
​

If the heart (soul and spirit) of a man is in control, these control what the body does. If the body is in control, all lusts and affections must be gratified (not that they are ever satisfied.)

Proverbs 27
20 ¶ Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Ecclesiastes 1
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

Isaiah 9
19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

Ezekiel 16
28 Thou hast played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Micah 6
14 Thou shalt eat, but not be satisfied; and thy casting down shall be in the midst of thee; and thou shalt take hold, but shalt not deliver; and that which thou deliverest will I give up to the sword.

Habakkuk 2
5 ¶ Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
​

Now, we must eat, but we do not need to lust for food, or a certain thing. An affection is normal, but if that affection controls our whole being, we are a slave to it, and must gratify it when it comes calling. Of the lusts of the flesh, Nathan described this to King David this way:

II Samuel 12
4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
​

Notice again, that there is an insatiable craving, and this will not cease when man is in Hell:

Luke 16
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
​

Sorry if this was just a rabbit trail, or was a little aside of your question, but the LUSTS and AFFECTIONS of the flesh will not be satiated in this life or the next for those who crave them, and over whom they rule! There is ample cause to understand this from scripture, and we can explore further as you like. Not every case is stated so plainly, but the ego and the flesh (the fallen nature AND the body of man) are not satisfied by what this world offers.

We need to find a way to be free from the cravings and requirements of the flesh that lead us away from God. If we are wrapped up in seeking to gratify the flesh, we are not seeking to fill our hearts with the truth of God in His word and by His Holy Spirit.

Further, having dealt with the flesh, we must not allow ourselves easy access to that which we are trying to avoid. If your lusts cause you to drink too much of alcoholic beverages, don't buy it, and keep it around the house. Don't sit in the bar, and read all the labels of the bottles on the shelves. Don't walk through the liquor store, and remember how you previously enjoyed this or that beverage. Many sermons can be, and were preached in past decades and centuries on such subjects. It applies to all of the fleshly cravings.

Romans 13
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
​

Don't put yourself in places to tempt yourself where you would otherwise avoid the things you are trying to abandon. This is part of the process of turning from the world, and worldly lusts, and turning to God.

There is a Strait Gate (Narrow Passage) that must be entered. People who seek this halfheartedly will try to take their lusts and affections with them. There is not sufficient width to enter there with anything extra. Read this excellent book. It is a short book that has been one of my favorite for years.

The Strait Gate,
or
GREAT DIFFICULTY OF
GOING TO HEAVEN:
by John Bunyan (1628-1688)

http://www.achristianspirit.com/StraitGate.html
​

May God give you understanding in these matters.
.

 

[98cwitr]

Well it's a great thing Im married now! Or is it?

Matthew 5:28-31New International Version (NIV)

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

So much risk...just looking or calling someone a fool, and I am in grave danger.

 

[Avid]

... Im not sure it addresses the nature of man and his ability to choose...

There are other threads on similar treatment of this subject. Some of that is helpful, and includes treatment of a Parable of our LORD, and a humorous exchange about me thinking I can get someone to give me something because I CHOSE that he should.

Man looks for an excuse, and looks to see if there is a way to NOT be liable for refusing to do as God requires. It is part of being human. The term "MAN" goes for guys and gals - it is not gender specific as some like to imagine.

As God awakens a sinner to his condition, the man seeks to cover his sins so they are not a visible blight upon him. A recent occurrence had a couple of robbers walking down the middle of the road when a policeman approached. They were doing something a little off of what is allowed, but knew in their hearts that they had just done something a lot worse. It was reflected in their behavior, though the world seems to be trying to make this incident all about the cop and not about the robber.

You can see how man reacts to the presence of holiness or righteousness that shines light on his sin. (...the lawbreaker versus the LAW.) Quickly, the sinner sees he cannot hide from God, then has a sense that the whole world can see his sin. Now, he reacts to that sense, and God is yet patient, if He has the intent to deal further with the man.

The sinner is resisting and God is extending the hand of help. If this happens ONCE, it is all God requires of Himself. There is really no one else to make any such requirement upon God, so it is ALL of His doing to pursue the sinner beyond the initial awakening to his condition.

Typically, people who live where Church meetings are held a number of times per week, will react with their idea of a legal argument. "What about the person in the deepest jungles of Africa who have never even heard of this, or the name of Jesus..." It seems to ALWAYS be Africa they reference! That continent has had the gospel for over 19 centuries, and there have been MANY THOUSANDS of missionaries, and missionary efforts, to that continent, so let us deal with you and me for the moment.

We are not hidden, though this causes us to consider that we may hide ourselves, and we think of how that could be done. If God pursues us, we are shown more of what we really are, and we can see that ALL of the effort so far is on God's part. God has awakened us, and God sent the preacher we heard. God brings the matter to our minds, and God makes us feel just a little of the weight we have carried, so we get a sense of what is at stake. (shown vividly in the first few lines of "The Pilgrim's Progress")

Man is then faced with doing SOMETHING. Usually it is the wrong thing, but some are sincere enough to ask, and find out what the right thing would be! (Acts 2:37, Acts 16:30, Acts 22:10)

Man must participate. Man must WANT to be delivered to get God's help. The motives are beyond what man is capable of doing, so God must motivate the sinner. Instruction (as we are engaging in right here,) is vital, and the proper obedience to the right instruction is what gets the sinner to the next steps in following Christ. (the whole purpose and plot of "The Pilgrim's Progress")

A more specific question may help get you a more specific answer. Have you read, "What can a Sinner do to be Saved?" It addresses this subject. It is a complementary sermon to another by the same preacher titled, " What MUST a Sinner Do to be saved? " I have not found that one yet. Am still looking for it as the subject comes up.

FIXED:

http://www.achristianspirit.com/6-THINGS.html

.

 

[98cwitr]

http://www.christianforums.com/6-THINGS.html...link no workie...would like to read it though. I have listened to many a Paul Washer sermon on this subject, but I know a man will only do what it is in his nature to do. I recall the scripture that we have spoke of recently; "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" and what is concerning is that I am no longer afraid.

 

[Avid]

Well it's a great thing Im married now! Or is it?

Matthew 5:28-31New International Version (NIV)

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

So much risk...just looking or calling someone a fool, and I am in grave danger.

What you have said is the way most people are awakened to their condition, and the utter uselessness of their fleshly effort. They are repelled or drawn closer to God. Let it be the case that you draw closer to God at His drawing upon your soul.

As we see this more clearly, we are made to see our utter inability to keep the LAW, and that it drives most people away, or into religion. If we are sincere, it has us running toward God's light crying for "Life, Life - Eternal Life!"

Some people turn to legalism (dealt with early in "The Pilgrim's Progress.") They see that they need to follow a list of things to satisfy God (the Formalist as in Form-A-List.) The self-righteous compare their efforts to the efforts of others they consider are not trying as hard as they! They avoid comparing themselves with those who are at peace with God, because that seems to make them look bad. They will accuse any they consider to be like that, because their religion does not allow anyone to be better than they (" THE PHARISEE AND THE PUBLICAN" by John Bunyan)

The whole religious world is built around this, and so sincere people try to contrast their efforts from being religious to being in a personal relationship with Christ. Even some of those are self-deceived, and they invent things as well. I trust you are seeing the pitfalls of this (covered in "The Pilgrim's Progress.") We have the innate tendency to deceive ourselves in the whole matter, and in every little step along the way.

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
​

If you seek to enter in at the Strait Gate, and keep to the Narrow Way, you will find it leads to life (Matt. 7:13-14, Luke 13:24)

II Chronicles 15
2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.
​

Isaiah 55
6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
​

.

 

[Avid]

http://www.christianforums.com/6-THINGS.html...link... I have listened to many a Paul Washer sermon on this subject, but I know a man will only do what it is in his nature to do. I recall the scripture that we have spoke of recently; "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" and what is concerning is that I am no longer afraid.

If you think that you are NOT AFRAID ENOUGH, read these books. Neither are very large, but "Groans" is a bit larger than the other.

THE GREATNESS OF THE SOUL,
and Unspeakableness of
the Loss Thereof;
by John Bunyan

- and -

A Few Sighs From Hell, or
The Groans of the Damned Soul
by John Bunyan
​

I can remember asking a dear Christian woman (ran a Christian Book Store) if she thought I was getting farther from God, or closer to God. I was afraid I was just going the wrong direction, because I was already reprobate (REPROBATION ASSERTED by John Bunyan) I was told by her and the preacher that I was now in God hands, and it was HE that would keep me and direct me.

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 5
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
​

Seek the LORD, and leave the result in His hands.

.

 

[Avid]

... So much risk...just looking or calling someone a fool, and I am in grave danger.

We hear that it is very hard to live a Christian Life. NO, it is impossible! If we are in the flesh, we have no ability that can do what is "listed" as you have already detected. It is only by the power of God and His Holy Spirit that anyone can do ANY of this.

As men try to please God in the flesh, they find the temptations to be too much, and the ability to resist them too small. If they wish to do good, they find their power and motives are insufficient to overcome the covetousness that craves what time and valuables would be given to benefit others.

A little bit from the Pilgrim's Progress to show what I was saying... In the following excerpt, Two Characters in the Pilgrim's Progress are talking, and they relate experiences they had along the Narrow Way. One is the main character, Christian, and the other is his fellow, Faithful.

----

Chr. Did you meet with no other assault as you came?

Faith. When I came to the foot of the hill called "Difficulty," I met with a very aged man, who asked me what I was, and whither bound? I told him that I was a pilgrim going to the Celestial City: then said the old man, Thou lookest like an honest fellow; wilt thou be content to dwell with me for the wages that I shall give thee? Then I asked him his name, and where he dwelt? He said his name was Adam the first; and that he dwelt in the town of Deceit.

~ Ephesians 4:22 ~​

I asked him then, What was his work? and what the wages that he would give? He told me that his work was many delights; and his wages, that I should be his heir at last. I further asked him, what house he kept, and what other servants he had? So he told me that his house was maintained with all the dainties in the world; and that his servants were those of his own begetting. Then I asked how many children he had? He said that he had but three daughters,--the lust of the flesh; the lust of the eyes; and the pride of life;

~ 1 John 2:16 ~​

and that I should marry them all, if I would. Then I asked how long time he would have me live with him? And he told me, as long as he lived himself.

Chr. Well, and what conclusion came the old man and you to at last?

Faith. Why, at first I found myself somewhat inclinable to go with the man, for I thought he spake very fair; but, looking in his forehead as I talked with him, I saw there written, "Put off the old man with his deeds."

Chr. And how then?

Faith. Then it came burning hot into my mind, whatever he said, and however he flattered, when he got me home to his house he would sell me for a slave. So I bid him forbear to talk; for I would not come near the door of his house. Then he reviled me, and told me that he would send such a one after me, that should make my way bitter to my soul. So I turned to go away from him; but just as I turned myself to go thence, I felt him take hold of my flesh, and give me such a deadly twitch back, that I thought he had pulled part of me after himself: this made me cry, "O wretched man!" So I went on my way up the hill.

~ Romans 7:24 ~​

----

I'm still trying to get at the importance of your questions. This may seem tedious, but we may cover the very aspects you seek with a little more discussion.

.

 

[Jonathan95]

1 John 2:15 [ On Not Loving the World ] Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

And if we do not love the Lord then we are not saved.

1 John 2:15 doesn't say "love for the Father was never in them to begin with".

Paul didn't say that Demas never had love for the Father. One cannot conclude that Demas always loved the world, even while working with Paul, just because love for the world was the reason why Demas left him.

Why'd John exhort us that we shouldn't love the world or anything in it, if we cannot do it as true believers? It proves we can fall away, otherwise he wouldn't say that to believers.

 

[Avid]

...1 John 2:15 ... Why'd John exhort us that we shouldn't love the world or anything in it, if we cannot do it as true believers? It proves we can fall away, otherwise he wouldn't say that to believers.

This is an interesting area of discussion. I am not completely sure of the use of the term, "true believers," but that is in the LORD'S hands, and we need to be cautious regardless. I am not sure what can actually be said about Demas, though, I had learned the same thing, about how the phrase really means he ALWAYS loved the world.

This passage may mean that we should not love the world because it will hinder us, or because it will give an entry for the Wicked One to steal our soul, or that God would abandon us, or that it would precipitate into us abandoning God. Certainly we are warned, and we should take heed to God's warning.

If we guard against what God warns us to guard against, we should have no trouble. This scripture warns us (though it seems to address people in a Church, or generally: Churchgoing people,) to LOVE NOT THE WORLD. In other places (Heb.6 & Heb. 10) we are warned that there is no coming back if we reach a certain point of knowledge of God's truth, and fall away.

In the Revelation, this same Apostle John wrote from what our LORD said to him:

Reveleation 3
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
​

This lends credence to the thought that there ARE things a person who truly knows and follows God can do to have himself cast away. Again, there would be no coming back from such an error or offense!

I Corinthians 9
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
​

There are a couple of places where we are told of what CANNOT take us away from God, but SELF is not in any list I know of...

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Am I wrong? Is SELF in the list? Let us beware. This is scriptural, and not necessarily a comfortable thing for people who are locked into a particular doctrine, or would even put themselves into a pigeonhole. Certainly is an area for us to have a concern about...

I am not saying this to change anyone's theology, or corrupt their doctrine. This is scripture, and all of us are responsible to God for how we handle it.

.

 

[98cwitr]

1 John 2:15 doesn't say "love for the Father was never in them to begin with".

Paul didn't say that Demas never had love for the Father. One cannot conclude that Demas always loved the world, even while working with Paul, just because love for the world was the reason why Demas left him.

Why'd John exhort us that we shouldn't love the world or anything in it, if we cannot do it as true believers? It proves we can fall away, otherwise he wouldn't say that to believers.

true enough but really in the context of things the past doesn't matter at all. If we fall away Paul tells us it's impossible to come back:

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I am of the belief that true love for God will never fail, nor fall away, for only the elect possess this Love (1 John 3).

 

[Jonathan95]

true enough but really in the context of things the past doesn't matter at all. If we fall away Paul tells us it's impossible to come back:

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I am of the belief that true love for God will never fail, nor fall away, for only the elect possess this Love (1 John 3).

Each time we sin against God, our love toward Him fails.

What's your definition of falling away? Is it living in deliberate sin without remorse or similar?

 

[98cwitr]

deliberate sin after coming to knowledge of truth is falling away - Hebrews 10:26.

 

[Hammster]

deliberate sin after coming to knowledge of truth is falling away - Hebrews 10:26.

No, it's not. This is a reminder to the Jews that it's Jesus or nothing. They cannot abandon what they've learned and go back to the old sacrificial system.

If you understanding is correct, there is no hope for us.

 

[98cwitr]

No, it's not. This is a reminder to the Jews that it's Jesus or nothing. They cannot abandon what they've learned and go back to the old sacrificial system.

If you understanding is correct, there is no hope for us.

And a reminder to us as well!

When validated against John 8:11, 1 John 3:9-11, and 1 John 5:18 I really can't see how you can make any other assertion unless you're simply looking for a way to excuse our sins by ignoring/twisting Scripture. Not trying to offend, just making a statement.

There is always hope in this life...hope ends when life ends.

Job 27:8 For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

 

[Hammster]

And a reminder to us as well!

When validated against John 8:11, 1 John 3:9-11, and 1 John 5:18 I really can't see how you can make any other assertion unless you're simply looking for a way to excuse our sins by ignoring/twisting Scripture. Not trying to offend, just making a statement.

There is always hope in this life...hope ends when life ends.

Job 27:8 For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

I'm not trying to excuse sin. I'm just trying to give a proper understanding of the verse when looked at in context.

There's a good chance that this is book is just a transcript of what Paul preached in the synagogues. If so, he had a mixed audience of saved and unsaved Jews. Basically, it's one think to sacrifice animals in ignorance. But since he's now given them the truth, they cannot do so in the same way because they are now informed.

Trying to understand this verse on it's own without the context of all of 9 and 10, and the entire book, will lead to a false conclusion.

 

[Jonathan95]

deliberate sin after coming to knowledge of truth is falling away - Hebrews 10:26.

Just one deliberate sin, or a lifestyle of deliberate sin? Isn't most sin deliberate?

No, it's not. This is a reminder to the Jews that it's Jesus or nothing. They cannot abandon what they've learned and go back to the old sacrificial system.

If you understanding is correct, there is no hope for us.

Yes, I've heard that interpretation too or something similar, and I agree. If we're honest with ourselves, we'd say we have sinned a lot deliberately.