He wants EVERYONE saved?

[twin1954]

Many jews had seen Jesus on earth and saw him doing miracles and heard him preach, yet didn't believe.

That's different than most people today.

That verse doesn't mean God gives people eyes that don't see etc without wanting them to be saved or without them having had a chance to get saved first, because the same term is used in some/all of the Gospels about people who wouldn't believe.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
(Mat 13:10-14)

The Lord Jesus was referencing Isa.6:9

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
(Isa 6:9-10)

 

[Jonathan95]

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
(Mat 13:10-14)

The Lord Jesus was referencing Isa.6:9

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
(Isa 6:9-10)

It doesn't say that God didn't want them to hear, why else would Isaiah and Jesus preach to them?

However, the pharisees among others chose to harden their hearts and didn't believe, so they were condemned already. Not because God didn't want them to be saved in the first place:

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:17-18 NKJV)

The world in this case involves those people described in Matt 13:10-14, and being condemned because one doesn't believe implies free will being involved, otherwise it wouldn't say that God sent Jesus so that "the world through Him might be saved"

"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;" (John 16:8-9 NKJV)

Since all have sinned and are in need of a Savior, the world includes everyone here. If one can be convicted of sin, this means one can harden himself or chose to believe.

It doesn't say "because I didn't want them to believe".

 

[twin1954]

It doesn't say that God didn't want them to hear, why else would Isaiah and Jesus preach to them?

However, the pharisees among others chose to harden their hearts and didn't believe, so they were condemned already. Not because God didn't want them to be saved in the first place:

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:17-18 NKJV)

The world in this case involves those people described in Matt 13:10-14, and being condemned because one doesn't believe implies free will being involved, otherwise it wouldn't say that God sent Jesus so that "the world through Him might be saved"

"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;" (John 16:8-9 NKJV)

Since all have sinned and are in need of a Savior, the world includes everyone here. If one can be convicted of sin, this means one can harden himself or chose to believe.

It doesn't say "because I didn't want them to believe".

Why then would the Lord thank the Father for hiding the truth from the wise and prudent and revealing it to babes?

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
(Mat 11:25-27)

 

[Jonathan95]

Why then would the Lord thank the Father for hiding the truth from the wise and prudent and revealing it to babes?

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
(Mat 11:25-27)

It's not to be interpreted to mean that he has hid it because he has predestined to hell or wants them condemned in the first place.

"and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 18:3 NKJV)

They need to humble themselves, because they have wisdom without humility.

Are there no wise people (earthly wisdom) who have been saved?

 

[Avid]

It doesn't say that God didn't want them to hear, why else would Isaiah and Jesus preach to them?...

It can be argued whether these people did this because they were PREDESTINED to do so, or they did it because they were just DETERMINED to be more wicked than most people to that day. Either way, IF any of us really wish to know God, and know the meaning of His words, we must put forth more than just a token effort. Likewise, we will not immediately attribute conviction or other workings of God's Holy Spirit to the devil or his minions.

Matthew 12
22 ¶ Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
​

This is the reason. These did this twice. It was after the second time that Jesus pronounced DOOM upon them for that, and ONLY spoke in parable to hide the truth from those who rejected it or refused to receive it.

The disciples came to Him to ask questions, and they got the interpretation. The Pharisees would NOT humble themselves, which is why they would rather do the UNFORGIVABLE than be submitted to the God they said they followed and worshiped.

.

 

[98cwitr]

Many jews had seen Jesus on earth and saw him doing miracles and heard him preach, yet didn't believe.

That's different than most people today.

That verse doesn't mean God gives people eyes that don't see etc without wanting them to be saved or without them having had a chance to get saved first, because the same term is used in some/all of the Gospels about people who wouldn't believe.

So you agree that belief and faith are both self-manifested...yes?

 

[Jonathan95]

So you agree that belief and faith are both self-manifested...yes?

If you mean it in the sense that I don't believe that faith is a gift, then no.
I believe faith is a gift, however, I don't believe those who don't believe don't because they were predestined to hell, to unbelief.

 

[98cwitr]

If you mean it in the sense that I don't believe that faith is a gift, then no.
I believe faith is a gift, however, I don't believe those who don't believe don't because they were predestined to hell, to unbelief.

What would God offer a gift to someone He knows won't take it then?

 

[Jonathan95]

What would God offer a gift to someone He knows won't take it then?

Wasn't the Apostolic office of Judas Iscariot a gift? The ministry of Demas who left Paul? The Holy Spirit is a gift, yet the Bible warns us of grieving Him and so.

 

[98cwitr]

Wasn't the Apostolic office of Judas Iscariot a gift? The ministry of Demas who left Paul? The Holy Spirit is a gift, yet the Bible warns us of grieving Him and so.

Did either of them ever possess the Holy Spirit and were reborn of Him?

 

[Jonathan95]

Did either of them ever possess the Holy Spirit and were reborn of Him?

How does that affect the fact that their ministries were gifts in the first place?

Judas wasn't filled with the Spirit, one received Him in John 20:22 and in His fullness at Pentecost.

Regarding Demas, Paul didn't say he was never saved, nor did he say Demas had always loved the world.

 

[Bluelion]

98

If i tell you a story you have a choice, you can either chose to believe what I say is true or chose not to.

When i was saved at 6 i did not understand everything, I did not know then for sure like I do now that there is Jesus. I took a leap of faith, God called me yes, He preached His word to me, but I was like and am like every other sinner, but then I had no idea if any of it was true, why God did what he did, what kind of God He was, all I new was i was told God Loved me. I did not know if that was true. I took a leap of faith, I wanted to believe it because I was not loved in this world, I had nothing else. God did not push me off the cliff i jumped, Yes God leads many to the cliff but He does not push any one they must jump or not for them self.

And that is about as Good as its going to get, God leads the world to the cliff and say jump, some say no way, and some say i will but don't, and yet other still say nothing they are already in the air. Now if you suggest God pushes people off the cliff, we must disagree then friend.

 

[98cwitr]

Great testimony Blue! Tell me...how did you know you were saved? And what did you believe you were saved from? Why would God lead a man to this "cliff" of faith knowing that the man would not jump?

How does that affect the fact that their ministries were gifts in the first place?

Judas wasn't filled with the Spirit, one received Him in John 20:22 and in His fullness at Pentecost.

Regarding Demas, Paul didn't say he was never saved, nor did he say Demas had always loved the world.

What ministry did they provide?

1 John 2:15 [ On Not Loving the World ] Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

And if we do not love the Lord then we are not saved.

 

[Bluelion]

Great testimony Blue! Tell me...how did you know you were saved? And what did you believe you were saved from? Why would God lead a man to this "cliff" of faith knowing that the man would not jump?



What ministry did they provide?

1 John 2:15 [ On Not Loving the World ] Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

And if we do not love the Lord then we are not saved.

well at 6 i did not know I was saved. i felt very loved and broke down in tears i felt not alone any more but I really did not understand. It was last years in the test my school gives to make sure we are saved. It was do you remember being saved, I thought oh boy I am in trouble, but then I thought and I remembered my prayer from 6 and I thought wow i remember being saved. This is not 100% accurate test Btw. I doubted my salvation until I was 30 something. I must have asked God in my heart and begged him to save me a 100 times. I thought why is it so hard to be saved.Then a friend explain once saved always saved to me and I saw the truth in it. I will never go back to thinking I can lose my salvation or that I am not saved. The truth is I came up with my own Test with the grace of God. It is if you love God in your heart because a person can not Love God with out Jesus in their heart, for a person by nature is hostel to God and it is not in Him to Love God with out Jesus.

What I realized i was saved from was hell and death. I had been given Life forever.

Now why would God lead everyone to the cliff of faith, because everyone must be given the chance so on judgement they can not say they never had a chance. You can not judge a person who has not yet committed a crime, and if a person has no choice he has not transgress the law for he could do nothing else. but they are guilty because the were given the same choice the children of God were given, but they rejected it.

I believe this God gives everyone the best chance in life to be saved. God will is that everyone be saved. so everyone is given the best chance, even though yes God knows they will not be they must have the chance, so there can be no excuses.

Take the generation that was when Jesus walked the earth. they were the most wicked God says and they were also given the greatest chance to repent, for they saw God, they saw the miracles, they heard the world to salvation from God's very mouth. They will be judged harsher Jesus said over and over again, because they were give such a great chance. It was said Sodom would still be there had they seen these things. And even sodom was given a chance, God did not destroy it from Heaven, but came down to see for Him self. Abraham became the mentor if only ten righteous the whole city would have been spared.

If people never had a chance to come to God, what crime is there then that they did not come to God? But if they were given a chance like everyone else and rejected it, then they are guilty of rejecting God. If the Here the word and reject it they are guilty of breaking the law for they new it, and yet even not hearing they new the law in their hearts, they new right from wrong and could have chose to do Good, but did what there heart told them was wrong, they betrayed their own Heart. there own hearts will condemn them. As it is said every idle word a man speaks he must give an account and they will either set him free or condemn him.

just the way I see it.

 

[Petruchio]

That's a sad statement if I ponder on it long enough~lives created for a few dozen years and predestined for eternal torture and damnation to show what is "good"~~if that is your "God" and His idea of "good" I'll take hell every time.

A statement that shows a tremendous lack of fear of God. Note that Paul responds to something similar, and how he responds to it:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

 

[Bluelion]

A statement that shows a tremendous lack of fear of God. Note that Paul responds to something similar, and how he responds to it:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

I don't think it shows a lack of fear of God, but an understanding of right and wrong. damning a person to hell with no choice or chance to change there fate is just not justice.

WHat you are teaching does not bring people to God but turns them against God. It does not reflect the God of Love in the Bible, nor is it showing love of others to say a person is damned to hell through no fault of there own. I think people have God's laws written on there heart, and God speaks to the heart of every man and woman telling them right from wrong, and they see this teaching as wrong and a grave injustices, and rebel against it.

I think you also need to be aware this teaching cast stumbling blocks before people, and you will have to answer one day for every block you put in front of a person, and if it is found this teaching was the cause of a person stumbling and even losing there soul and if you preached and were the cause you will be made to give an account for that persons life and sin.

That is all biblical.

Peace and Love, its about love, just love for crying out loud
blu.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

What would God offer a gift to someone He knows won't take it then?

It's an interesting subject, this business of trying to understand God in human terms. He leads a horse to water, gets frustrated when it won't drink, and then makes the best of a bad situation by having a barbecue when the thing dies. Okay, no, that's not right. We're dealing with God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, never makes mistakes and never fails, for whom nothing is impossible. You could argue that God wouldn't offer the message if he knew you would not accept it, but that's not true. You know very well that he would, just like the sower that threw seed onto the hard path, where it would never take root.

damning a person to hell with no choice or chance to change there fate is just not justice.

That's an entirely understandable position. But, again, judging God on a human level makes things a little tricky. Murdering an entire family would be purely evil, I suppose, but I've never heard anyone say that of Shakespeare for writing a play called Hamlet. Shakespeare is not judged on a level equal to Hamlet, and he had a right to write his story as he chose. Hamlet's uncle, however, was judged a villain, and rightly so. To argue that predestination vindicates everyone for every sin is to say that no work of fiction ever written has a true villain, and that all of their authors are horrible people who ought to be locked away.

 

[Bluelion]

It's an interesting subject, this business of trying to understand God in human terms. He leads a horse to water, gets frustrated when it won't drink, and then makes the best of a bad situation by having a barbecue when the thing dies. Okay, no, that's not right. We're dealing with God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, never makes mistakes and never fails, for whom nothing is impossible. You could argue that God wouldn't offer the message if he knew you would not accept it, but that's not true. You know very well that he would, just like the sower that threw seed onto the hard path, where it would never take root.



That's an entirely understandable position. But, again, judging God on a human level makes things a little tricky. Murdering an entire family would be purely evil, I suppose, but I've never heard anyone say that of Shakespeare for writing a play called Hamlet. Shakespeare is not judged on a level equal to Hamlet, and he had a right to write his story as he chose. Hamlet's uncle, however, was judged a villain, and rightly so. To argue that predestination vindicates everyone for every sin is to say that no work of fiction ever written has a true villain, and that all of their authors are horrible people who ought to be locked away.

see that's just it I don't think it is God's way at all. Sure i believe in predestination, but God said He is willing that all be saved and none should die, that said I don't believe he predestined any one to hell, not even satan, sure he new what they would do, but he gave them all a real honest chance.

Some say God created evil, but did He? Evil came about by satan and the angels and then humans going against God's will, so did God create it or was it bad choices on the creation which started evil, debatable sure, but interesting none the least.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I think you also need to be aware this teaching cast stumbling blocks before people, and you will have to answer one day for every block you put in front of a person, and if it is found this teaching was the cause of a person stumbling and even losing there soul and if you preached and were the cause you will be made to give an account for that persons life and sin.

That is all biblical.

This is biblical:

1 Corinthians 1:23 (ESV)
but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

Yes, I do put a stumbling block, Christ crucified, before people.

Jeremiah 6:21 (ESV)
Therefore thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will lay before this people stumbling blocks against which they shall stumble; fathers and sons together, neighbor and friend shall perish.’”

Even God puts a stumbling block before people.

Just to be clear, my objective has always been to, first, do my best to find the truth, and second, to present people with that truth. Being an effective salesman is without value if I win people over to anything less than the truth.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

... but he gave them all a real honest chance.

Some say God created evil, but did He? Evil came about by satan and the angels and then humans going against God's will, so did God create it or was it bad choices on the creation which started evil, debatable sure, but interesting none the least.

Predestination is necessarily a paradox. Seeing it any other way (such that people are nothing but mindless robots) is to misunderstand it. Therefore, yes, God has everything under control, and yes, people, as you say, all have a real honest chance.

Absolutely nothing surprises God, and absolutely nothing is beyond his control. Hence, anything other than predestination, from his point of view, makes no sense. From our point of view, we all seem to have a free will.