having children

[kmm]

Please excuse me for just jumping in here, but I have a burning and difficult issue and was hoping for some feedback from fellow Orthodox.

It is regarding having children. I realize that as a married Orthodox woman this probably shouldn't really be an issue. However, I've not been Orthodox (nor Christian of any sort - I grew up as an agnostic) for very long and there are still certain leaps of faith that I am having trouble with.

My husband and I want very much to have children (we've been married almost two years now), and have been holding off due to a serious lack of financial resources. Our finances are somewhat better now, but our situation is still far less than ideal on other fronts. However, I am a 31 year woman and I do not foresee a more preferable situation within the next five years (my husband is working on a Master's Degree), so I don't want the potential of regretting not having children for the rest of my life because I waited too long for the right time. Therefore my husband and I are considering letting nature take its course, as should really be the case in an Orthodox marriage.

However, I am very frightened by the prospect as well - it has nothing to do with the pain of childbirth, or loss of "freedom" one associates with having children. Even monetarily we will likely be able to pull it off at a basic level, although I have (non-Orthodox) friends guilting me with opinions such as, "But don't you want the best for your children?", and "It's is child abuse to have children when you don't have a backyard." (that despite the fact that homeownership is very expensive in my city and that we are a very urban city where large swaths of the population live in rented or owned apartments, yet plenty of parks). My biggest fear is finding childcare and being too exhausted and working too long of hours (approx. 70 hours per week, hopefully being reduced somewhat next year, as a teacher - although at least I get summers off) to be a good parent. We are fortunate where I am that we can get up to 12 months umpaid maternity leave (with some help from unemployment insurance). However, this insurance is not nearly enough as I am the main breadwinner. My husband tries hard but he is an immigrant on-call actor (self-employed so ineligible for any parental leave programs) who is also working part-time on his Masters, with an aim to teach and hopefully have steadier work a ways down the road. Therefore I could only take 2-3 months maternity before heading back to work. What does a person do with a 2 month old child when childcare for such an age group is virtually non-existent (not to mention that I am not comfortable with leaving a child that young at a daycare)? I cannot leave him with my own family - my parents are self-employed and work long hours, with no intention of stopping that to babysit, and my husband does not have any family here. There is a possibility that we could bring his mom over to help out, but that is not certain. There are no child care facilities for children that young at my parish either - it is small and lacking in some resources. Most of the moms there are working too. Most of my non-Church friends do not have children (and those that do work), so I couldn't try to foist my own upon them either.

I want to take this leap of faith and trust in God that somehow it will all work out, because otherwise I could easily hold off forever with all of the obstacles I see. Yet I can't help thinking that by having children under these circumstances I am being incredibly irresponsible. Frankly, it makes me sick with worry, and sad sometimes. I would appreciate some feedback on this.

Thank you.

 

[Moros]

Do not have children when you do not have the resources to pay for them.

 

[kmm]

It's not money now that is the issue - it is the lack of child-care resources. Although admittedly if I were really wealthy I could hire a nanny. But very few are that well off.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

What of the possibility of your husband putting his stuff on hold for a few years? Your body won't be able to have children forever. He can always go back for his degree, and find some other decent paying job in the meantime.

Katherine

PS - Welcome to TAW!!! Great to have you here!

 

[kmm]

I should make it clear that when I implied that I might foist my own children upon friends who were taking care of their own children (if I had such friends), I would obviously pay them to do this. I have never been one to mooch or take advantage of the kindness of others. Really, truly!

 

[kmm]

Hi Katherine,

Thank you very much for your welcome! Your suggestion might be an option, although not one my husband would easily agree to - only because if he gives up his acting now he will likely never get back into it - agents and casting directors aren't too sympathetic. And despite his being well-educated, he is an immigrant and educated very narrowly. He won't likely get much above a minimum-wage job - he gets paid more than that acting yet the hours are fewer than a regular job giving him time for the Masters. However, your suggestion is welcome and to be explored further.

kmm

 

[prodromos]

Dear kmm,

We will keep you in our prayers.

My wife and I were both unemployed when we married and immediately conceived our first child, and we now have three wonderful children. We still struggle to make ends meet but somehow we always manage to pay the bills and put food on the table (I suspect it is the prayers of the nuns and monks at our favorite monasteries that keep our heads above water )

Some friends of ours, Mary and Demetri, had two children and fell pregnant at a time when Demetri was unemployed. Many of their friends were telling them they were mad to keep the baby (Greece unfortunately has a VERY high rate of abortions ), but they stuck to their guns and trusted God. Demetri was then accepted in a position over hundreds of other applicants because he had written in his application that they had three children (the baby would have been born by the time the position was to be filled) and it was on that basis that he was given priority over all the other applicants. On another note, they recently gave birth to their fourth child and they are in their forties.

John

 

[Oblio]

On another note, they recently gave birth to their fourth child and they are in their forties.

Are they nuts

 

[MariaRegina]

Hi Katherine,

Thank you very much for your welcome! Your suggestion might be an option, although not one my husband would easily agree to - only because if he gives up his acting now he will likely never get back into it - agents and casting directors aren't too sympathetic. And despite his being well-educated, he is an immigrant and educated very narrowly. He won't likely get much above a minimum-wage job - he gets paid more than that acting yet the hours are fewer than a regular job giving him time for the Masters. However, your suggestion is welcome and to be explored further.

kmm

Dear Kmm:

Have you thought about working at home with children.

I know a lot of women after 30 who cannot have children - early menopause. I only have one child because of a late marriage. I've had two miscarriages.

So don't wait or you will regret it.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

P.S. there are jobs you can get at offtimes - when your hubbie is at home and able to watch the kids.

Trust in God.

P.S. See if your hubbie can teach at the college while working for his masters.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Hi, KMM! I don't really feel qualified to give a lot of advice on this because I'm not married, nor do I have children. However, I have heard many couples talk about similar situations they're in. The thing that keeps coming to mind is my own parents. I come from a blue collar family. Mom and dad both come from poverty sticken homes. I thank God that when they got married they didn't base having children on their income. Otherwise, neither I nor my three brothers would've been born. We always had what we *needed* (not always what we wanted, but I'm thankful I wasn't over-indulged).

About the childcare thingie....this is a problem seen a lot these days because there are fewer and fewer couples who are able to make in on one salary. I take it there isn't a daycare available where you work? I agree with Katherine, that perhaps your husband needs to re-evaluate his priorities and perhaps put off his college work to get another job or something. Or, as Katherine mentioned, the university he attends may hire him for a position (teaching or something), which would also likely decrease his tuition. Sorry I can't be more helpful on this topic! I will keep you in my prayers.

P.S: You should also discuss this with your spiritual father/priest. If for no other reason than the birth control factor, because the Orthodox church generally does not support the idea of using any birth control methods (although acceptions for special circumstances can be made, but your priest must handle that decision).

 

[Nikolas222]

From a scientific point of view:

My mom had my little sister a few years ago-she was 37!

That is a six year diffrence between you and her. If you decide to wait a little while, I think its okay, however, the human body does have limits.

From a religious point of view:

Definitly trust in God. Many people will tell you this, and although it is right, there are many people who are naive and do not truely understand this. In my short and religious life, I have realized that if you trust in God, God will trust in you. But you can't expect to come home and have God drop a sack of money at your doorstop for financial aid. As a human, I know I have limits of my perception of events, and I do not fully understand the course of events in my life.

Last quarter for school (8th grade), I had a bunch of quizzes on geometry. I failed over half of them, even though I am an honors student and I understood the material. I prayed constantly until the math test, and when I took it, I got a 95! On top of that, almost everyone besides me did terrible, who coincidently did well on the quizzes. Because of that, the teacher added 5 points to everyone's grade. I got a 100!!!

God works in mysterious ways, but he does work. I think with his help through a constant and good prayer life as well as sticking to the christian values, I think I could do anything I really try to do, and I believe if you have these things, you could do the same.

From all points of view:

I think if you really wish to have your child and you are prepared as a Christian with commitment, I think you would manage. But I also understand that you are a teacher and he is an on-call actor that is also a student. With him going to school and the government giving budget cuts to education making teachers be in danger of being laid off, money will be hard.

I think you should wait.

 

[vanshan]

KMM,

I think your concerns are very thoughtful and indicate the wisdom and care with which you approach life. These, undoubtedly, are qualities that would help you be a great mommy. It's great to be practical, but it's also sometimes beneficial to make sacrifices for things you want -- even more so for children you want.

I had just finished my Master's when I met my wife. We had our first child soon after we were married, which at first we regretted because we really thought we needed a longer honeymoon to build up our relationship and just get used to being a couple. Also we were both working fairly low-wage jobs . . . not minimum wage, but the bottom of corporate pay -- grunt jobs. When she had Anneliese, our daughter who is now 3, she quit her job and became a full-time mommy. This required great sacrifices, but I can't imagine having to send our infant to daycare 40+ hours every week. We were able to buy a small house, found a way to juggle using one car, and doing without all the toys and entertainment we used to love. But what we got in return!

I can honestly say, I have never felt more fulfilled, happy, and rich than I do right now. We now have Anneliese and Elijah, 1 1/2, and it's wonderful . . . most of the time. We struggle financially, living only check to check on my income, which is still not great, but we have a lifetime to rebound and build up retirement, buy a larger home, more cars, etc. This is child-time, later will come our time alone together.

If your husband is willing to give it a go, then I say jump. It really takes very little to afford a child once you get the big things like strollers, cribs, and car seats. I don't think someone who is in poverty should take children, but if you are okay now without children, you would do fine with only a little belt-tightening with children.

I don't know if my self-indulgent story helps, but I just want you to know it can be done if your heart is there and it's God's will.

Basil

 

[Oblio]

When she had Anneliese, our daughter who is now 3, she quit her job and became a full-time mommy. This required great sacrifices, but I can't imagine having to send our infant to daycare 40+ hours every week. We were able to buy a small house, found a way to juggle using one car, and doing without all the toys and entertainment we used to love. But what we got in return!

I can vouch for this. We are down to one income now and I think it will pay manyfold dividends in the future. As for immediate returns, holding your 11 week old while she taps her hands to a 12 bar blues beat can't be topped

 

[MariaRegina]

I can vouch for this. We are down to one income now and I think it will pay manyfold dividends in the future. As for immediate returns, holding your 11 week old while she taps her hands to a 12 bar blues beat can't be topped

Wow! your baby does that. She a genius!

 

[kmm]

Thank you very much to all of you who put much thought into your replies, including HommeDeDieu, as this young Man of God is able to express himself on adult issues in a remarkably mature and reflective manner (please don't view that statement as patronistic, it isn't meant to be). You are all also very patient with my navel gazing. Again, it is most appreciated. I don't yet have a rich network (due to time and other factors) within my church community that I feel I can l openly ask for advice on these matters. It is a lovely community, but due to my own issues and a variety of probably unavoidable issues (which I won't bore you with) in the parish community, I am finding it a bit challenging to seek advice there.

Thinking more and more about it, money wise we are well enough off provide I keep working. While we can't take fancy holidays and our cars are 16 and 18 year old clunkers (we do have to keep both at this point for job reasons), and we don't exactly live in a remotely ideal home (but our neighbourhood is enjoyable and interesting, and we live right next door to our Church and rectory!), and affording one's own home is very difficult to impossible here because of hugely inflated housing prices, we do keep ourselves indulged with decent food and a fair number of books, and don't suffer for the basics, so I think we can manage more members of the family in that regard.

re: daycare at work - nope, and a slim chance of that ever happening - a fairly small staff for one thing (about 20 people), and there are only 2 children amongst the whole staff as it is - I think many of the married ones are holding off for similar reasons. There is so much pressure to be a "good" parent. At what level are you supposed to be able to provide your children with the best? 100K? 1 million? and so on. I know many of you are from the US and you have quite a high birth rate for an industrialized country, but here in Canada the rate is 1.2. Rather low. Is everyone in my generation paranoid? I know most of them don't believe in God let alone trust in him. Perhaps I should know better than to follow the herd? (please pardon the rant. It is over).

re: birth control - yeah, I know - hence one of the reasons I am exploring this question with fellow Orthodox. Exceptions can be made when having children would pose a significant hardship, which worked well when I was just finishing up my last degree, but may not be so valid now. And I know I should speak to my priest - I'm a bit shy about it - it's waaaaayyyy easier to speak to others over a computer , plus there is a bit of a language barrier. But I very much appreciate your reminder in this regard Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta- you are quite right. Please keep it up!

Good news - my husband is all for having a family (he has a little trouble understanding my angst - he grew up very poor in Eastern Europe, and a 1 bedroom apt. with a whole family!). He tells me today that his mom is agreeable to come from the "Old Country" to live with us and be baba. Hopefully the governments of both countries will allow her to leave/ come here if and when the time comes. It's another mouth to feed, but hey, she works very hard and always sides with me over my husband - the poor guy...

Finally, in regards to the age thing. I am a bit worked up because while I know I'm not too old yet, a lot of young women have put off having children until later not realizing that while many women can have a healthy pregnancy into their mid to late 30's and onwards, many women cannot - it becomes increasingly difficult at that age. The problem is that those who do manage obviously celebrate, but the many who don't keep quiet about their fertility problems, leading to the impression that it is still easy. There is a further item - my mom hit menopause early. That was apparently due to severe stress, but it makes me a but nervous.

Again, thanks for the feedback and being patient with my longwindededness. And keep expressing stories and opinions on this issue if you so wish - it is helpful.

 

[ufonium2]

He tells me today that his mom is agreeable to come from the "Old Country" to live with us and be baba. to severe stress, but it makes me a but nervous.

My grandmother moved from the "Old Country" (which in my family is Alabama ) to live with my parents when I was born, and it worked out great. Old people and babies don't eat very much, and I've generally found that people who object to having them around do so for reasons other than finances.

If your husband is from Eastern Europe, he won't mind naming the baby Angelina You don't have to tell him you're naming it after me.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

You're welcome, KMM! I understand the anxiety about your age. I'm about to turn 31 and I hear my biological clock ticking quite loudly these days! My problem is that there's just this iddy biddy piece of the puzzle that's missing......A HUSBAND! At least you're set in that department.

And I like the name Angelina as well! Very pretty!

 

[Matthias]

Do not have children when you do not have the resources to pay for them.

Call me ignorant, but I thought Orthodoxy forbits the use of any item which prevents the opportunity of having children. Or have I been wrongly informed? Or am I jumping ahead of myself here? Bruncvik, are you saying go without having sex, or are you suggesting the use of some form of pregnancy prevention?

 

[kmm]

Ufonium2 - Angelina is a pretty name!

Grand_Duchess Elizaveta - I understand your frustration in husband - or lack thereof- department. Ignore my advice on this one if you're not looking for it, but in case you are, here are two suggestions that helped me and others I've known...

1) the husband material seems to come along when you've gotten so annoyed with the dating thing you have absolutely no interest in it anymore and have said to heck with it, and are just happy to be doing your own thing (or better yet God's thing, but I wasn't yet a Christian when I met my husband - he can be credited with introducing me to Orthodoxy, and we've explored it together as he grew up as an agnostic/atheist as well).

2) volunteer for something - it doesn't necessarily have to be a charitable organization either. Anything that involves aspects of culture, sports, the outdoors, etc. - whatever is appealing to you. That's how I met my guy, who was directing some community theatre (i volunteered in the props dept.). Not only did I meet my husband, but others will benefit from your time and talents too. Church activities are obviously good too, but of course many parish communities are too small to provide many opportunities for either activities or potential husbands.

Anyway, I've enjoyed these exchanges with you all! Thank you. You are a warm and interesting bunch.

I've been lurking on many threads here, as I don't usually have much to say - I'd rather learn and listen from others at this point.

kmm

 

[Orthosdoxa]

1) the husband material seems to come along when you've gotten so annoyed with the dating thing you have absolutely no interest in it anymore and have said to heck with it, and are just happy to be doing your own thing (or better yet God's thing

This is very true!!!