Have you always been a Reformed Christian?

[Dansiph]

I have never been part of a Reformed or Calvinist church. My reason is rather ironic: I don't feel that I was destined to be part of one, yet. God led me to other churches.

I first officially accepted Christ at four years old, but I had been raised in the non-Calvinist thinking of Assemblies of God, and for that I spent my early years fearing for the destiny of my future and uncertain self. It wasn't until my senior year in high school that I learned about the Calvinist doctrines from an atheist teacher. I and another student did a quick study of the Bible, compared notes and concluded that we must be Calvinistic. I have been of a Reformed mindset ever since.

It's true that Reformed theology incorporates more than TULIP, but it is the predestination that gets the most attention, because it is most controversial among those Christians who are not Reformed. The rest of it mostly agrees more or less with median protestant doctrine. Reformed theology does drift on its own tangent when it comes to the order of service, but the subject is uncontroversial enough as to be overlooked by non-adherents.

As Hedrick noted, there's a stark schism between the liberal and conservative sides. It strikes deeply at the heart of Christian morality, and those on the conservative side do balk at those who would call themselves Reformed, yet embrace the rainbow of various perversions. Both God and Satan are aware of the same facts, but each feels very differently about those facts, and I think you will find that the same is true for this group.

Predestination is a hang-up for me. The whole thing is really but I just want to look into it myself.

 

[Dansiph]

Hello @Aspzan, I spent my first 10 years in Christ as an Arminian. As time went by/as I grew in my knowledge and understanding of God and the Christian faith, I began to have questions about certain soteriological issues, questions that I found Arminianism simply had no answers for, so I began to look elsewhere, and in doing so, ran across a book by R C Sproul called, Chosen By God (or the free video series by the same name, Chosen By God, is also available now). This little book answered all of the nagging questions that had been bothering me for a couple of years, and it caused me to take a brand new, deeper look into a systematic theology (Calvinism) that I had previously written off as heretical.

As far as my denomination is concerned, I'm now part of the Evangelical Free Church of America. Like the SBC (which followed in our footsteps in this, actually), we take an agnostic position concerning Arminianism and Calvinism at the denominational level, believing that the Bible can be used to support both positions (and that it is up to our individual members and how they believe God is leading them to decide which systematic theology seems better to follow). What this has led to, at least in my church, is productive discussions, rather than endless, heated debates with our brothers and sisters in church who hold the opposing view.

Our elder board and pastorate are also split in this way, with (interestingly) half of each right now being Arminian, and the other half being Calvinist.

Just to be clear, I came to saving faith/became a Christian on 11/2/86, not ten years later when I finally became a Calvinist Dr. Sproul has the very same story, in fact, though I believe he was even more anti-Calvinist in his early years as a Christian than I was.

God bless you!

--David

It's interesting that you, R C Sproul and even the author of a book I am reading were formerly not Calvinist. Also it's good that you have productive discussions. For me there's questions on both "sides" of the theology.

I don't technically label myself as Arminian and I don't think other Independent Baptists do either. But, we're not calvinist. The author of the book I'm reading is Sean Michael Lucas and he was an Independent Baptist before becoming a Presbyterian.

 

[hedrick]

Predestination is a hang-up for me. The whole thing is really but I just want to look into it myself.

I would argue that it’s hard to avoid a moderate kind of predestination, e.g. one paired with compatibilism, as long as you hold a traditional concept of omniscience and omnipotence. Most objections to predestination from traditional Christians seem to me to come from people who don’t understand compatibilism. I admit it’s an odd idea to wrap your mind around, but I think in the end it makes sense.

I think you’ll find that modern theology is tending to accept a weaker concept of omnipotence than traditional, often as part of panentheism. The only coherent alternative I can see to something like that or open theism is that God has voluntarily given up some of his control. But I’m not sure whether that really works.

 

[Dansiph]

I would argue that it’s hard to avoid a moderate kind of predestination, e.g. one paired with compatibilism, as long as you hold a traditional concept of omniscience and omnipotence. I think you’ll find that modern theology is tending to accept a weaker concept of omnipotence than traditional. The only coherent alternative I can see to something like open theism is that God has voluntarily given up some of his control. But I’m not sure whether that really works.

I'm just finding I've got a lot of questions and that I can't just look to Calvinist sources to answer them because it would be baised. The thing is I can't find non-Calvinist sources about it all very easily. I did find this: The 5 points that led me to leave Calvinism

 

[hedrick]

I'm just finding I've got a lot of questions and that I can't just look to Calvinist sources to answer them because it would be baised. The thing is I can't find non-Calvinist sources about it all very easily. I did find this: The 5 points that led me to leave Calvinism

For the Arminian position, try Free Open Courses! – Wesley Biblical Seminary (The title supplied by CF is misleading. This is the Society for Evangelical Arminians.) But it's unusual to find coherent presentations from people who don't have some position on the issue, so looking for something unbiased is hard.

The following is an interesting presentation of the logic of the situation. This is the closest I've seen to an unbiased presentation: Predestination II | Presbyterian Mission Agency

Compatibilism is a key issue. Wikipedia has a reasonable treatment, Compatibilism - Wikipedia, though I originally got it from Jonathan Edwards. Here's a treatment in a more Christian context: A Plea for Calvinistic Compatibilism - Credo Magazine

 

[JM]

As a Christian I have always been a "Calvinist" but not always Reformed. Many times over the last 5 years I've been tempted to leave Reformed theology and the Baptist church, at some point I still might, but for now I'm staying put and trying to faithful to Christ by serving the local body.

 

[Dansiph]

As a Christian I have always been a "Calvinist" but not always Reformed. Many times over the last 5 years I've been tempted to leave Reformed theology and the Baptist church, at some point I still might, but for now I'm staying put and trying to faithful to Christ by serving the local body.

Why are you tempted to leave Reformed theology and the Baptist church? Also what is your plan if you did leave?

 

[JM]

Why are you tempted to leave Reformed theology and the Baptist church? Also what is your plan if you did leave?

I love liturgical worship and find it helpful in preparing my soul for prayer and worship. The ritual of it, smells and bells. Not that I plan to leaven the Baptist church but if I did I could find myself among the Lutherans. I have a kneeler in my study that I use for private prayer and devotions, it has served me well so far, the temptation to leave has abated.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Dansiph]

I love liturgical worship and find it helpful in preparing my soul for prayer and worship. The ritual of it, smells and bells. Not that I plan to leaven the Baptist church but if I did I could find myself among the Lutherans. I have a kneeler in my study that I use for private prayer and devotions, it has served me well so far, the temptation to leave has abated.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Ah ok. I see what you mean but that stuff is not my preference. I do sometimes kneel to pray and I probably should more. I know you mean a piece of furniture designed for kneeling on though?

I recently got a 30 Minute prayer pdf from an Independent Baptist church and most of it revolves around preparing to pray. I don't think I can post it though because you have to sign up to the newsletter to be emailed the pdf. I thought Lutherans believed that Baptism saves. I just read they don't?

 

[Dansiph]

I love liturgical worship and find it helpful in preparing my soul for prayer and worship. The ritual of it, smells and bells. Not that I plan to leaven the Baptist church but if I did I could find myself among the Lutherans. I have a kneeler in my study that I use for private prayer and devotions, it has served me well so far, the temptation to leave has abated.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

You can subscribe for the prayer guide if you want and then cancel it: PaulEChapman.com
It's on the top banner, difficult to miss. It can be adjusted to 15 minutes or an hour or however long really. I realise you probably have a routine but I thought I'd send anyway.

 

[JM]

Ah ok. I see what you mean but that stuff is not my preference. I do sometimes kneel to pray and I probably should more. I know you mean a piece of furniture designed for kneeling on though?

I recently got a 30 Minute prayer pdf from an Independent Baptist church and most of it revolves around preparing to pray. I don't think I can post it though because you have to sign up to the newsletter to be emailed the pdf. I thought Lutherans believed that Baptism saves. I just read they don't?

Yes.

White Oak Church Kneelers made my Philip Morley Furniture


The bodily gestures usually observed in prayer, such as kneeling and uncovering of the head (Calv. in Acts 20:36), are exercises by which we attempt to rise to higher veneration of God. (3.20.33) - Calvin's Institutes

 

[Dansiph]

Yes.

White Oak Church Kneelers made my Philip Morley Furniture


The bodily gestures usually observed in prayer, such as kneeling and uncovering of the head (Calv. in Acts 20:36), are exercises by which we attempt to rise to higher veneration of God. (3.20.33) - Calvin's Institutes

That's very nice! Is that Japense style joinery? I'm actually looking or have been for a while to go back and become a Joiner here in the UK. I had an undiagnosed illness though which has mostly been dealt with now.

 

[Dansiph]

That's very nice! Is that Japense style joinery? I'm actually looking or have been for a while to go back and become a Joiner here in the UK. I had an undiagnosed illness though which has mostly been dealth with now.

I wrongly wedged through tenons were only Japanese. I don't think they are.

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm just finding I've got a lot of questions and that I can't just look to Calvinist sources to answer them because it would be baised. The thing is I can't find non-Calvinist sources about it all very easily. I did find this: The 5 points that led me to leave Calvinism

Hello again Aspzan, I wanted to jump in on this conversation because, sadly, I believe that the anti-Reformed bias is overwhelmingly stronger than the pro-Reformed bias is, so what you are seeking (a truly non-biased understanding of Calvinism from an Arminian source, may not be available).

Dr. Sproul can be a very helpful source, because even though he is pro-Reformed, of course, he never insinuates that those who are not Calvinist are also not Christian (because they are not Reformed). The other thing is, www.ligonier.org has opened up all of Dr. Sproul's teaching series so that you can stream them for free right now (it's their way of helping out during the Coronavirus sheltering at home).

Perhaps the best thing to do is to look to the Bible and find your answers there when you read or hear something, from either side, that doesn't seem right to you somehow. And we'll be here to help out as well, so please don't hesitate to come back with any thoughts that you'd like to discuss with us, or questions that come up about Calvinism that you'd like have answered.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - I just noticed that Ligonier has also made their teaching series study guides available for free (in download form). These are some of the very best of study guides I have ever seen or used, so I would recommend them to you as well.

 

[Dansiph]

Hello again Aspzan, I wanted to jump in on this conversation because, sadly, I believe that the anti-Reformed bias is overwhelmingly stronger than the pro-Reformed bias is, so what you are seeking (a truly non-biased understanding of Calvinism from an Arminian source, may not be available).

Dr. Sproul can be a very helpful source, because even though he is pro-Reformed, of course, he never insinuates that those who are not Calvinist are also not Christian (because they are not Reformed). The other thing is, www.ligonier.org has opened up all of Dr. Sproul's teaching series so that you can stream them for free right now (it's their way of helping out during the Coronavirus sheltering at home).

Perhaps the best thing to do is to look to the Bible and find your answers there when you read or hear something, from either side, that doesn't seem right somehow. And we'll be here to help out as well, so please don't hesitate to come back with any thoughts that you'd like to discuss with us, or questions that come up about Calvinism that you'd like have answered.

God bless you!

--David

Thanks. I especially like the advice about looking to the Bible! I'm glad to hear that he never insinuated that non-Reformed are not Christian. I remember reading something along the lines of non-Reformed being unsaved because they're not completely trusting God. I don't think this is probably the majority opinion though? If I remember right it was talking about other Protestants.

EDIT: I know a lot of Baptists don't consider themselves Protestant

 

[Dansiph]

Hello again Aspzan, I wanted to jump in on this conversation because, sadly, I believe that the anti-Reformed bias is overwhelmingly stronger than the pro-Reformed bias is, so what you are seeking (a truly non-biased understanding of Calvinism from an Arminian source, may not be available).

Dr. Sproul can be a very helpful source, because even though he is pro-Reformed, of course, he never insinuates that those who are not Calvinist are also not Christian (because they are not Reformed). The other thing is, www.ligonier.org has opened up all of Dr. Sproul's teaching series so that you can stream them for free right now (it's their way of helping out during the Coronavirus sheltering at home).

Perhaps the best thing to do is to look to the Bible and find your answers there when you read or hear something, from either side, that doesn't seem right to you somehow. And we'll be here to help out as well, so please don't hesitate to come back with any thoughts that you'd like to discuss with us, or questions that come up about Calvinism that you'd like have answered.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - I just noticed that Ligonier has also made their teaching series study guides available for free (in download form). These are some of the very best of study guides I have ever seen or used, so I would recommend them to you as well.

Do you know anything about UK Presbyterian Denominations? I like the look of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster. They have a US branch btw. EDIT: I don't like the more political side of it though.

 

[JM]

Do you know anything about UK Presbyterian Denominations? I like the look of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster. They have a US branch btw. EDIT: I don't like the more political side of it though.

Chapter 23

 

[Dansiph]

Chapter 23

I'm probably missing something obvious but why did you send that?

 

[JM]

I'm probably missing something obvious but why did you send that?

The chapter explains the Presbyterian view of government. It's in reference to the last line of your last post.

 

[hedrick]

The chapter explains the Presbyterian view of government. It's in reference to the last line of your last post.

I suspect his last line was a reference to Ian Paisley.