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Featured Have we all become Laodicean?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by rockytopva, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    All right... I will take the next several posts to describe them...
     
  2. Tinyarch

    Tinyarch Well-Known Member

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    Better that you show how the text within the Bible describes them. If you can't get it from the text, it's best to get rid of the interpretation, regardless of how fun it might sound.
     
  3. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie Supporter

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    Hi Rocky :) I think we children of God can benefit from whatever Jesus says to each church, in Revelation. Even if some criticism does not mean us, it can help us as a warning.

    "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'" (Hebrews 5:2)

    God is our Best of Everything :ebil::pray::groupray::prayer::clap:
    If the more traditional ways were so right and so sure to work, how come they have not kept on working? Possibly, there was church culture copy-catting, and younger ones have gotten wise to this. And ones can be self-righteous in their proper outward tradition.

    Again . . . even if the beliefs might be correct, ones can get self-righteous and look down on others, like the Pharisee did to the tax collector, in Jesus' parable.

    It helps me to see that I need to first seek what pleases God; but He does give us more and better than we can try to get for our own selves ! ! !
     
  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Messianic church - The First Church - The Apostle Peter

    The Ephesan Church started on the day of Pentecost around 33 AD. Ephesus in the Greek is of uncertain determination but may mean “discoverer,” in which this is the first church age to “discover” the meanings of Christianity. It was Peter who first received the Holy Ghost and delivered the first sermon. Thus, according to Christ Jesus, Peter became the first rock in which he would build his church (Matthew 16:18), on which the gospel then spread.

    “Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my names sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.” –Revelations 2:1-5

    "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Sad thing that the first church, the Messianic church, dissipated away!
     
  5. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Persecuted church - The Second Church - The Apostle Paul

    The Smyrnaean Church age began with the Roman Emperor Nero burning down Rome and accusing the Christians of doing it. Smyrna in the Greek means “Myrrh,” in which the Smyrnaean martyrs represented the most pure form of Christianity of all the church ages. The martyred crowns were many as the Smyrnaean church age progressed.

    Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
    Time Persecutor Description
    67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
    81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
    108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
    162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
    192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
    235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
    249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
    257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
    274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
    303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Orthodox Church - The Third Church - Constantine

    The Pergamean Church Age began with Constantine’s triumph against pagan Rome at the Milvian Bridge. The liberation of Rome from the pagan powers reigned in the third church age. Because of the barbarian onslaught during this church age it was necessary for it to move into castles or towers, which is purgos in the Greek. It is recorded that half the human population would die from the barbarian onslaught, the church therefore would need to dwell in fortified structures.

    “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write: These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Baalam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth. He that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches. To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in that stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that received it.” Revelations 2:12– 17

    It was thought that Balaam, a prophet to his people, took a bribe from Balak to curse the people of Israel. So it was with the Nicolaitanes, who taught the people that fornication was ok, cursing the lives of others. This was true in the early life of St. Augustine, who as a young man went from sexual partner to sexual partner until being converted. As St. Augustine was traveling the Roman Empire he noted in his log that “In every man lieth a serpent,” indicating that the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes spanned the entire empire before the barbarians destroyed it. This Pergamean church then withstood the onslaught of the barbarians during the time of the Goths, Huns, Vandals, on up to the time of the Vikings. This was a very barbaric age in which the church moved out of the fields and into the castles such as we had in Constantinople.

    "Therefore I say, He ordained that we should undergo death for the faith, which each man should do for the communion of the Church. For Christianity makes progress by the deaths of its followers. For if death were feared by the faithful, no man would be found to live with perfect faith. For the Lord Christ says, 'Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.'" (John 12:24) –Petilian’s discussions with St. Augustine. Note: “even in the days of wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr” refers to the previous church age. As the Bishop Pelitian and Augustine were hashing away at what direction the church should go, Pelitian made the comment that we should not fear dying as Christians, knowing that the state of the seed is better in the afterlife than in the former. A star in Pergamos was the good old St. Nicholas, who would ride into town with a switch and presents for the children, depending on how good they were.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Catholic Church - The Fourth Church - Charlemagne

    4. The Thyatirean Candlestick: Catholic Church Age (Charlemagne)

    It would be as an estimate that the Thyatirean Church age began with Charlemagne, who was a champion for the cause of Christianity. Appalled by the illiteracy of his time, Charlemagne imported scholars from Ireland, Britain, and Italy. Out of these schools were to arise the universities of Europe. In 787, Charlemagne issued to all the bishops and abbots of France a historic Capitulare de litteris colendis, or directive on the study of letters. It reproached ecclesiastics for “uncouth language” and exhorted every cathedral and monastery to establish schools where clergy and laity alike might learn to read and write. A further capitulary of 789 urged the directors of these schools to “take care to make no difference between the sons of serfs and of freemen, so that they might come and sit on the same benches to study grammar, music, and arithmetic.” Upon this foundation was the Thyatira church built. It was too bad we would not see any more Charlemagne’s during this church age.

    “And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.” - Revelations 2:18 - 28

    Charlemagne gave the church so much power with the edicts of his lifetime that the church age became corrupt to the point that it was compared to the evil woman Jezebel. The church began persecutions from denying folks communion to setting up great inquisitions. “Which have not known the depths of Satan” may refer to Dante Alighieri, who terrified Europe with his writings. The church became just as ruthless as the pagans before them in the arts of death and torture. The great tribulation came about in 1347, in which the Black Death killed an estimated 25% of the European population. Thyatira means to “blow smoke” in the Greek, possibly because of the darkness the Thyatireans would bring into the lives of others.

    I think that the spirit of Jezebel has long ago left the Catholic church and is now in Islam. You would not have wanted to have spoken out against the Catholic church in her time frame and geography!
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Protestant Church - The Fifth Church - Martin Luther

    5. The Sardisean Candlestick: The Reformed Church Age

    The beginnings of the Sardisean Church age can be traced in 1392, when John Wycliff translated the bible into English. Because of the strong influence of the Thyatireans, Wycliff’s books were burned and his remains exhumed. Nonetheless he started a flame that would lead to the reformation of the church. It was in 1517 that Luther would nail his 95 thesis and thus begin the Sardisean Church age. The Sardisean Church age was an age most adventurous! With the discovery of the new world in 1492, the rise of the English and Spanish empires, and the German reformation, would shed in a whole new era in discovery and adventures, with a whole new era of religious thinking.

    “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” – Revelations 3: 1-6

    A regrettable fault in the Sardisean church age was in their ability to become just as evil as the Church they rebelled from. An example was the Anglican Church, who would persecute people for not acknowledging their book of prayer. There were also many regrettable wars in which Christians would fight against Christians, it seems that the only place Christian sects could dwell in unity was in the new world. The Lord here in scripture sought to strengthen the true light of reformation, which things were ready to die with the Sardisean Church age. The reason for this spiritual death was Europe’s unwillingness to accept a variety of faiths, to take over a faith, and to persecute those who would resist the faith. It seemed the desire of the Europeans to have a single faith within their country, and often times that faith would become just as evil as the faith they rebelled from. At the end of the Sardisean Church many of the good things died. The Sardisean Church began in adventure and ended in violence. So the need of a new church age was imminent.

    The Lord also seems to challenge John Calvin with these words... "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

    Note also that Sardis is a gem, or a hard rock, therefore the Sardiseans are very rigid and unchangeable in their beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  9. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Philadelphian Church - The Sixth Church - John Wesley

    6. The Philadelphian Candlestick: The Revived Church Age (John Wesley)

    During the early years of John Wesley many Protestants were headed to America to escape the many wars and persecutions that were arising in Europe. John Wesley himself headed for America where he was a Priest in Savannah, Georgia until angry colonist drove him out. Upon returning to England in 1738 he went to a Moravian meeting in London where he felt his heart “strangely warmed.” This was the beginning of the Philadelphian Church, in which the Wesley revivals would issue in a new era of church age. Methodist missionaries brought Wesley’s doctrine to America in the 1760’s and Methodism quickly became the largest movement in America. From that time the Methodist church has split into many denominations including the African Methodist, Free Methodists, Wesleyan, and the Congregational Methodist Church. Others do not call themselves Methodist, but are related to varying degrees. The Salvation Army was founded by William Booth, a former Methodist. Charismatic or Pentecostal churches such as the Pentecostal Holiness Church, Church of God, Congregational Holiness, and the Assemblies of God also have roots in or draw from Wesleyan thought. Many denominations such as the Baptist church experienced Methodist “methods,” but indirectly as they participated in revivals, retreats, seminars, etc. Evangelists such as Dwight L Moody would claim to have received sanctification later in his career. There were also music revivals in Philadelphia with the likes of Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts, Ira Sankey, and Fanny Crosby to name a few. Circuit riders, evangelists, revivals, and camp meetings heralded in the Philadelphian Church Age, which resulted in many of dynamic church services. The doctrine of the Methodist Church developed into three main methods….

    1. Salvation: Evidence – The sinner’s prayer. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9 (Easy… Right?)
    2. Sanctification: Evidence – A sweet spirit. “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;” –Hebrews 10:16
    3. Witness of the Spirit: Evidence - Spiritual Power. “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Acts 2:4

    “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” -Revelations 3: 7-13

    The hour of temptation that would try the world was the great depression followed by World War II. The open door allowed for the gospel in this church age to circle the world fulfilling the prophesy in Matthew 24:14 that the Gospel would be preached “in all the world.” It is with regret and a sigh that the author has seen the Philadelphia Church age come to an end and a new church age begin. With those of the old church age we find sanctification in its truest form. These folks who were truly sanctified had a sweet spirit, a working ethic, a natural charisma, and were folks who possessed the gift of sainthood. With the change in times we see the coldness and lukewarmness which throws us into Laodicea.

    I have tried to maintain the Philadelphian beliefs with my website at https://www.youtube.com/rockytopva
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  10. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Laodicean Church - The Seventh Church - DL Moody

    7. The Laodicean Candlestick: The Material Church Age (DL Moody)

    The Laodicean Church age was most probably born with the ease that came about after the Civil War Since DL Moody got started about this time, Moody could be considered the first messenger to this church age. DL Moody was also the first to profit off of ministry and book sales and to buy a mansion with the proceeds.

    “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” -Revelations 3:13-22

    In the previous church age to become sanctified was to acquire spiritual light. In the current church age there is no such doctrine. The Lord in scripture here counsels us to buy of him gold tried in the fire and as many as he loves he rebukes and chastens, which points to the many fallen church leaders this day who have been knocked down a few notches. We are in this church age to listen to the Lords voice and to repent (how hard is that?) when chastened by him. It is also interesting to note the need of eyesalve, this hints to a lost perspective resulting in spiritual darkness. The Lord wants us to see things in a new and clearer perspective. Scripturally, eyesalve will clear up the imagination so people can see that it’s not all about materialism. Good perspective comes with good devotions, mental input, praise and worship, prayer and fasting, relationships, finding of good company in good churches, and a lifestyle disciplined in the right direction. As Christians develop more and more of a relationship with Jesus Christ the evidence ought to be more spiritual light! Another regrettable bi-product that comes with coldness are the lazy habits developed from having it too easy, which adds to the coldness.

    “It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth forever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.” - II Chronicles 5:13-14

    It would be fitting to declare a second cold war on the spiritual coldness and deadness that will try to make its way into this church age. There are many mega churches these days that are worshiping churches and produce a good spiritual light. Good worship is a great way to discover the aspects of spiritual light. By some alchemy of spirit, when one begins to show spiritual light, the spiritual light becomes more easily attained. However the opposite is also true. Looking on the bad side of things, worry, fear, hate, gossip, sorrow, evil, church politics, the blame game, etc. cannot produce light and are very destructive in nature. There are also differences in worship as the these services are more contemporary. If deciding to attend one of these churches be sure to check out the “what we believe” section and make sure that the church is “bible believing.” Hopefully we will see more dynamics come out of Laodicea, a full summary on this church age cannot be written until after we have progressed further into it.
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    In the Philadelphian church age they taught a second experience. This was referred to by many names such as sanctification, 'getting religion', the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I have posted an example here...

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-life-of-george-clark-rankin.7757196/

    The Philadelphians would not let you claim this experience until the Christ came shinning through. In Pentecostal circles some would say, "No you don't have no Holy Ghost come back tomorrow night." And they would stay around the altar until they received it.

    In these Laodicean times...

    1. Are there altars?
    2. Do any bother to pray around them?
     
  12. ken777

    ken777 "to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

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    I only know a little about D L Moody and I've not heard this before. Are you suggesting Moody bought a "mansion" solely for his own benefit? I've heard he established a number of institutions to help the disadvantaged.
     
  13. Tinyarch

    Tinyarch Well-Known Member

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    To connect Moody to Revelation is quite bizarre.
     
  14. ken777

    ken777 "to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

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    Do you believe Revelation is a prophecy as suggested by Revelation 1:19?
     
  15. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

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    I think Revelation was meant to be a message to the early Christians against Nero (as "the Beast", etc. The beginning of Revelation directly states it's to the churches of the time.
     
  16. ken777

    ken777 "to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

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    It is called "prophecy" in Revelation 1:3 which can have a future fulfilment (compare Matthew 13:14).
    It seems that The Revelation covers the whole period of church history up until the final judgement (Revelation 20:11).
     
  17. Tinyarch

    Tinyarch Well-Known Member

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    As a whole, yes, but even prophesy has a connection to the people who are being given the prophesy. Not every sentence in Revelation is about the future and the letters are written to churches at that present time as the primary purpose.

    You cannot find Revelation ever referring to ages of time in relation to the churches. That is just poor hermaneutics.
     
  18. sculleywr

    sculleywr trouble-making crazy guy

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    An exercise in alternate history. The letters in Revelation to the different churches weren't intended as prophecy. They were actual letters to actual churches.
     
  19. ken777

    ken777 "to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

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    Those who suggest a broader application of the letters to the 7 churches do not deny that they addressed the situation in literal churches in John's day.

    Given that in Revelation 1:3 it is called prophecy, and in Revelation 1:19-20 the letters are said to accomplish a two-fold purpose ("the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter") it seems entirely possible that the letters contain a prophetic purpose.

    I believe The Revelation is prophecy, just as it says in the first & last chapters, and provides a predictive history of the future from John's day to the final judgment and the new heaven & new earth, given mostly in symbolic language.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  20. ken777

    ken777 "to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

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    Even if people do not accept the letters to the 7 churches have a prophetic aspect, they would recognize that the Church has gone through stages of development.

    Most notable are the pre-Constantine era, the medieval era, and the post-Reformation era.

    Within those broad stages there are obviously significant developments such as following the Reformation in the 16th century (Sardis) there was the Wesleyan movement and the rise of evangelicalism in the 18th century (Philadelphia), and the Pentecostal-charismatic movement at the beginning of the 20th century (Laodicea).

    The letters to the 7 churches give insight into major historical events. Having just read about the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, I am amazed at the effect this one victory had in preserving the British Empire which allowed the missionary movement to flourish.

    I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. (Revelation 3:8)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
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