Have we all become Laodicean?

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

In which all of this is a mystery...

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

In which we all, as part of the one whole church, are in the right hand of the Lord Jesus Christ...

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

In which I also question my own interpretation of this great mystery...

1. Are the seven churches ages?
2. Are the seven churches denominations?

I would say that they are a mixture of the two. My family comes from Methodist and Catholic origins. And, strangely enough, I was brought up Baptist. By the time the Baptist got through with me as a teenager I could not imagine any but Baptist as truly saved. As a young adult I felt the Holy Spirit come in and reside in a powerful way in a Pentecostal Holiness church. After research this was an offspring of John Wesley Methodism.

I wonder though, with the changes of the times and the seasons, if we have not all become Laodicean...

1. People do not care as much about church doctrine these days
2. Most successful churches are non-denomination independent Charismatic type churches
3. The denominational walls are not as high as they once were.

I took my dad, who professes to be Lutheran, to a Catholic church service last Christmas morning. To my amazement they were singing carols that were Protestant in origin. And then to my surprise my dad went for communion and they served it to him. Pope Frances has also reached out hands of fellowship to churches of other non-Catholic Christian congregations. I just wonder in this Laodicean time if the churches are not blending together as one.

I believe that the Catholic church is a Christian church that had its hay-day in Thyatirean times. I do not think that the spirit of Jezebel, to control and to dominate, is with them in the magnitude as it was in earlier times. But this spirit can raise her head again.

My dad's family are from the Saginaw Michigan Catholic church family and I use to attend when I was very young. The church then had nuns, monks, priests, and a very Catholic service. If I could go back in time I would like to sit again in one of the churches and take it all in.

The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Just walking through the doors for me as a child was an incredible experience!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To the question in the title: no.
A few have repented.

 

[rockytopva]

To the question in the title: no. A few have repented.

AnaBaptist.. I have wondered if this was not the beginning of the Philadelphian church. The AnaBaptist were different then the magisterial protestants of the time.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Peter
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

In which all of this is a mystery...

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

In which we all, as part of the one whole church, are in the right hand of the Lord Jesus Christ...

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

In which I also question my own interpretation of this great mystery...

1. Are the seven churches ages?
2. Are the seven churches denominations?

As I'm lead to understand the seven churches represent the complete church body which is here in the Revelation facing the eminent judgment of Christ in the judgment sevens which follow the letters. So I believe, no, we haven't all become Laodicean.

 

[rockytopva]

Some unique features that have worked themselves into the age....

1. Contemporary Christian music
2. Gospel Rock and Roll
3. The separation of the Contemporary Christian from the Traditional Christian service
4. The disappearance of the hard line doctrinal belief
5. Name it Claim it!
6. Prosperity Gospel - God wants everyone rich. He does not want any to suffer.
7. Evangelist getting rich off ministry - Beginning with DL Moody

 

[rockytopva]

Both my Grandmother and mother passed away and I was there at the hospital with them. The hospitals station of choice was the Cerullo INSP network. The whole time I was there I heard nothing but the prosperity message. Almost every minister was talking about, "Your time of increase." I was angry with this as I was hoping for salvation messages as well as I was not sure of my Grandmothers salvation. To me this station is 100% Laodicean church age.

 

[Tinyarch]

I suggest people read Robert Mounce book on Revelation as it relates to the churches. It is the most historically accurate and sound commentary that I have read on the subject of the seven churches. It helps reduce wild speculation in regard to interpretation.

 

[rockytopva]

I suggest people read Robert Mounce book on Revelation as it relates to the churches. It is the most historically accurate and sound commentary that I have read on the subject of the seven churches. It helps reduce wild speculation in regard to interpretation.

Give us a summary. I am always interested in other viewpoints. Keep in mind that it would be hard for two people to study the book of Revelation and come up with the same conclusions.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I thought they were all just churches of the time and Revelation was intended for those leaders of the time period as a message against Nero and has hope for the Christians persecuted against the Roman Empire.

 

[rockytopva]

I thought they were all just churches of the time and Revelation was intended for those leaders of the time period as a message against Nero and has hope for the Christians persecuted against the Roman Empire.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20-2:1

1. The seven candlesticks are the seven churches
2. Christ walks in the midst of the seven churches (candlesticks) holding the seven angels (stars) in his right hand.

If these stars are constellations, in which billions may occur in each constellation, we all, Messianic, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Wesleyan, and Charismatic exist in the right hand of Christ Jesus. And Christ himself walks in the midst of our congregations.

With that said... There are also issues that are unique to each church.

 

[Tinyarch]

Give us a summary. I am always interested in other viewpoints. Keep in mind that it would be hard for two people to study the book of Revelation and come up with the same conclusions.

Mounce gives a thorough historical background regarding each church. He shows how their history and geography tie in to Jesus letter to that specific church. When you understand that history, it makes sense of what Jesus said.
For example, Laodicea was built on a Roman cross road where there was no natural water supply. The Romans built two aquiducts to the city. One came from a cold spring. The other came from a hot spring. The problem is that the distance the water had to travel caused both water supplies to arrive at the city in a lukewarm state. They were neither hot, nor cold.
So, you can see why Jesus made his reference to being neither hot nor cold. Jesus was not saying he wished people were either good or bad. He was saying that he wanted people to be useful. Hot water is useful. Cold water is useful. Lukewarm water provides no natural usefulness. The message in Laodicea is not about an age. It is about the usefulness of any individual church.

 

[rockytopva]

Mounce gives a thorough historical background regarding each church. He shows how their history and geography tie in to Jesus letter to that specific church. When you understand that history, it makes sense of what Jesus said.
For example, Laodicea was built on a Roman cross road where there was no natural water supply. The Romans built two aquiducts to the city. One came from a cold spring. The other came from a hot spring. The problem is that the distance the water had to travel caused both water supplies to arrive at the city in a lukewarm state. They were neither hot, nor cold.
So, you can see why Jesus made his reference to being neither hot nor cold. Jesus was not saying he wished people were either good or bad. He was saying that he wanted people to be useful. Hot water is useful. Cold water is useful. Lukewarm water provides no natural usefulness. The message in Laodicea is not about an age. It is about the usefulness of any individual church.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. - Revelation 1:1

I believe Revelation to be a futuristic book. It completes the bible in that it communicates the issues and challenges of life between the apostles and Christ's return.

 

[Tinyarch]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. - Revelation 1:1

I believe Revelation to be a futuristic book. It completes the bible in that it communicates the issues and challenges of life between the apostles and Christ's return.

The letters were given to very real and very actual churches that John had ministered in. While there can be application to other churches at other times, the letters are primarily for the specific churches of that time and place.
We must let the text speak for itself before spiritualizing a text out of context.

 

[rockytopva]

The letters were given to very real and very actual churches that John had ministered in. While there can be application to other churches at other times, the letters are primarily for the specific churches of that time and place.
We must let the text speak for itself before spiritualizing a text out of context.

The prophecy to the Laodiceans describes this time better than any other. And it just happens to be the last church.

 

[Tinyarch]

The prophecy to the Laodiceans describes this time better than any other. And it just happens to be the last church.

There is nothing in the text to say your statement is true. You see that because of the culture you live in. Look at the churches in areas of the world where persecution of Christians is frequent. You could never call them Laodicean.
The ages interpretation has been pretty much debunked. That doesn't mean one can't find application, but trying to make each church into an age, is never found within the text of Revelation.

 

[rockytopva]

There is nothing in the text to say your statement is true. You see that because of the culture you live in. Look at the churches in areas of the world where persecution of Christians is frequent. You could never call them Laodicean.
The ages interpretation has been pretty much debunked. That doesn't mean one can't find application, but trying to make each church into an age, is never found within the text of Revelation.

The Laodicean church began with DL Moody, who made excess money on ministry and used it to by a mansion. Which was unheard of in previous ages. This would be a pattern of things to come. There are time frames and geographies in each church...

1. Ephesus - Messianic - Jerusalem
2. Smyrna - Early Gentile - Antioch
3. Pergamos - Early Orthodox - Constantinople
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Rome
5. Sardis - Protestant - All throughout Europe
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - England
7. Laodicea - Charismatic - United States

In the times of Queen Elizabeth of England you had a mixture of Thyatira and Sardis churches. King Phillip of Spain was very much Catholic and Queen Elizabeth of England very much Protestant. So these churches are unique in time and geography. The church of Smyrna may still be alive in foreign lands as this was a persecuted church. And these churches are not at all Laodicean in spirit.

 

[CrystalDragon]

The letters were given to very real and very actual churches that John had ministered in. While there can be application to other churches at other times, the letters are primarily for the specific churches of that time and place.
We must let the text speak for itself before spiritualizing a text out of context.

Yes, thank you! It specifically mentions those churches that the message was meant for at the very beginning of Revelation, so I don't get why people seem to ignore that and interpret Revelation as some vague far-future thing when it was meant for the time, the Beast referring to Nero, etc.

 

[Tinyarch]

The Laodicean church began with DL Moody, who made excess money on ministry and used it to by a mansion. Which was unheard of in previous ages. This would be a pattern of things to come. There are time frames and geographies in each church...

1. Ephesus - Messianic - Jerusalem
2. Smyrna - Early Gentile - Antioch
3. Pergamos - Early Orthodox - Constantinople
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Rome
5. Sardis - Protestant - All throughout Europe
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - England
7. Laodicea - Charismatic - United States

In the times of Queen Elizabeth of England you had a mixture of Thyatira and Sardis churches. King Phillip of Spain was very much Catholic and Queen Elizabeth of England very much Protestant. So these churches are unique in time and geography. The church of Smyrna may still be alive in foreign lands as this was a persecuted church. And these churches are not at all Laodicean in spirit.

There is zero material within the book of Revelation that agrees with your interpretaton. You are making it up from your own mind, not from the text.

 

[rockytopva]

I must say here....

There was no gentile church before the first age Messianic church - The Gentile church was unique
There was not an Orthodox church in the time of Paul - The Orthodox church was unique
There was not a Catholic church in the time of Constantine - The Catholic church was unique
There was not a Protestant church in the time of Charlemagne - The Protestant church was unique
There was not a Methodist church in the time of Martin Luther - The Methodist church was unique
There was not a Charismatic church in the time of John Wesley - The Charismatic church is also unique

1. Messianic
2. Persecuted
3. Orthodox
4. Catholic
5. Protestant
6. Wesleyan
7. Charismatic

All unique churches who would come about in their time frames and geographies. Some with very high doctrinal walls, but not as high in this day and time.

 

[Tinyarch]

You just can't get any of that from Revelation.
Feel free to believe as you wish, but don't imagine that it is found in the text. You are adding to the book, something that is not there.