Have we all become Laodicean?

[Widlast]

You are forcing your views on scripture that does not support them, and shoehorning history to fit your views.
BTW, the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches were the SAME CHURCH until the Photian schism around 980 A.D.
Your notions also leave out the Coptic Orthodox and Thomasine Churches ( two of the oldest ).

 

[victorinus]

1. Are the seven churches ages?
2. Are the seven churches denominations?

no and no -
if you read the commentary of the apocalypse by victorinus -
you will see that he does not mention these churches
-but-
he does mention paul's seven churches -
how can you explain this? -
I have but one explanation -
victorinus was looking at the first version of the apocalypse which did not mention the churches and it was written by john the baptist to prepare the way for the time was indeed near

 

[Tinyarch]

Those who suggest a broader application of the letters to the 7 churches do not deny that they addressed the situation in literal churches in John's day.

Given that in Revelation 1:3 it is called prophecy, and in Revelation 1:19-20 the letters are said to accomplish a two-fold purpose ("the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter") it seems entirely possible that the letters contain a prophetic purpose.

I believe The Revelation is prophecy, just as it says in the first & last chapters, and provides a predictive history of the future from John's day to the final judgment and the new heaven & new earth, given mostly in symbolic language.

There are applications that can be made to each church, but that doesn't make the letters to the churches some strange symbolism that the context never suggests.
The entire "each church equals an age" cannot be gleaned from the text. That interpretation is made up from thin air by people who are attempting to spiritualizing the text to fit their cultural history. It needs to be noted that Jesus never wrote a letter to the Church in Los Angeles or New York. We cannot take the Bible and force its interpretation into US history.

 

[ken777]

There are applications that can be made to each church, but that doesn't make the letters to the churches some strange symbolism that the context never suggests.
The entire "each church equals an age" cannot be gleaned from the text. That interpretation is made up from thin air by people who are attempting to spiritualizing the text to fit their cultural history. It needs to be noted that Jesus never wrote a letter to the Church in Los Angeles or New York. We cannot take the Bible and force its interpretation into US history.

You are entitled to your opinion but I would prefer to read a post that addressed the Scriptural evidence provided.

 

[Tinyarch]

Even if people do not accept the letters to the 7 churches have a prophetic aspect, they would recognize that the Church has gone through stages of development.

Most notable are the pre-Constantine era, the medieval era, and the post-Reformation era.

Within those broad stages there are obviously significant developments such as following the Reformation in the 16th century (Sardis) there was the Wesleyan movement and the rise of evangelicalism in the 18th century (Philadelphia), and the Pentecostal-charismatic movement at the beginning of the 20th century (Laodicea).

The letters to the 7 churches give insight into major historical events. Having just read about the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, I am amazed at the effect this one victory had in preserving the British Empire which allowed the missionary movement to flourish.

I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. (Revelation 3:8)

You are forcing your historical narrative into the text in Revelation 2 & 3. Let the text speak for itself. 7 churches received one letter for their church.

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense. This is the first rule of interpretation.

Each of the seven letters can apply to yourself as a member of the church, but there is nothing in the text to turn the letters into an extremely subjective reading of Western Civilization. What happens to the history of the Middle East and Asia? Can we honestly say the church in North Korea is lukewarm like Laodicea, just because someone came up with a wild "ages" interpretation a hundred years ago?

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

 

[rockytopva]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - 2 Timothy 3:16

I personally would use the mystery of the seven churches to warn people of the perils of this the Laodicean church age.

1. Eyesalve - To keep the proper Christian perspective
2. Lukewarm - To avoid becoming lukewarm and complacent
3. Riches - To avoid becoming to materialistic
4. Chastening - To endure whatever chastening may come your way.

Lukewarm... Has anyone noticed that there is not a great deal of passion on church doctrine these days? Sure... Maybe here... But the average person you may meet does not care anything about church doctrine. I visited a local charismatic church and looked over the belief section, there was not a whole lot there. I then make the comment, "Hey there is not a whole lot of doctrine here!" The man looks at me in return, and smiles, and says, "We like it that way!"

There is also a lukewarmness concerning communion these days. In which I have warned people to be careful on the administration of the Lord's supper, reminding them that for this reason Paul said many were weak, sickly, and have passed away.

 

[ken777]

You are forcing your historical narrative into the text in Revelation 2 & 3. Let the text speak for itself. 7 churches received one letter for their church.

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense. This is the first rule of interpretation.

Each of the seven letters can apply to yourself as a member of the church, but there is nothing in the text to turn the letters into an extremely subjective reading of Western Civilization. What happens to the history of the Middle East and Asia? Can we honestly say the church in North Korea is lukewarm like Laodicea, just because someone came up with a wild "ages" interpretation a hundred years ago?

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

You have still not addressed the Scriptures to which I referred.

Even in Laodicea there are those who overcome.

The church ages interpretation began to emerge in the early years of the Reformation, over 400 years ago.

Prophecy is often not recognized even by Jesus' followers (Luke 24:25)

 

[Tinyarch]

You have still not addressed the Scriptures to which I referred.

Even in Laodicea there are those who overcome.

The church ages interpretation began to emerge in the early years of the Reformation, over 400 years ago.

Prophecy is often not recognized even by Jesus' followers (Luke 24:25)

That view is a result of people looking at the Bible through their own cultural lense.

Even now you are trying to gain an upper hand by quoting Bible verses out of context to declare yourself correct.
You are free to believe an unsubstantiated interpretation of the Bible, outside of solid hermaneutics. I won't stop you. I simply say you are wrong.

 

[rockytopva]

Seven is also the number of perfection and completion. These seven churches completes the church of Jesus Christ.

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Peter
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The thing that mystifies me is that I do not know the exact geographies and time periods of each church. I have a pretty good generalized idea, but the specifics I do not know.

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Ezekiel 32

For me to know more about it I would have to have the Lord show me, as he did Moses, all about the book of life. There is one more instance in scripture, however, indicating the categorization of the churches...

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Revelation 5

Did you catch that?

1. The book was sealed with seven seals
2. No man was worthy to open or read the book
3. Only Christ Jesus was worthy to open the book and loose the seals
4. This must be what has been referred to as the 'Lamb's Book of Life!"

The seven seals seal each church... Messianic, Martyr, Orthdox, Catholic, Protestant, Wesleyan, and Charismatic. Therefore all we under the definition of what CF has called out as Christian are saved! And will be categorized in the last day according to our congregation. And after the seven seals are opened we find....

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. - Revelation 7

 

[com7fy8]

4. Chastening - To endure whatever chastening may come your way.

What do you mean by "chastening"?

There are people who understand chastening to mean circumstances God is using to either punish a person or drive the person to do what God wants. But this definition does not necessarily include being corrected in our character so we become like how Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart" (Matthew 11:28-30) and pleasing to our Father (1 Peter 3:4) and sweetly and pleasantly obedient (Ephesians 5:2) in God's love (Romans 5:5, 1 Corinthians 16:14).

Lukewarm... Has anyone noticed that there is not a great deal of passion on church doctrine these days?

I have seen how self-favoring groups can be very passionate about their own beliefs, passionately pointing out how everyone else is wrong. But they say little or nothing about real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < and what are the results of our Father's personal correction in our nature.

And I note how various groups do not make much mention of how God's correction corrects us > Hebrews 12:4-11, 1 John 4:17 < so that we are

"partakers of His holiness" (Hebrews 12:10), and have

"the peaceable fruit of righteousness" (Hebrews 12:11), and

"we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

Being a doctrinal parrot and traditional copy-cat for some favorite group is not the same as having our Father's correction of our character so we are transformed into the likeness of Jesus.

 

[rockytopva]

What do you mean by "chastening"?

There have been evangelist in this time who needed cut down a few notches...

 

[com7fy8]

There have been evangelist in this time who needed cut down a few notches...

But cutting someone down is not making him or her or us the way we need to become in God's love. Outward change is not real correction . . . of His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17.

I can give in to the temptation to look down on someone else who needs to be put in his or her place. I can be like the Pharisee who was in front of the church and looking down on the dirty rotten tax collector at the back of the church. But Hebrews 5:2 helps me >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

Any of us can point at how someone else needs chastening; and it is easy to exalt myself in comparison with some other human.

But > 2 Corinthians 10:12 > how are we, in comparison with Jesus??

 

[Tinyarch]

Tell us how these folks are "Laodicean" Christians.

https://www.persecution.com

 

[rockytopva]

Tell us how these folks are "Laodicean" Christians.

https://www.persecution.com

Remember Laodicea is a church. It has its own doctrine, geography, and time frame. These folks are outside the geography of the Laodicean church. There may be some mega-church within that country that fits the doctrine and geography, but in this case, the persecuted church is outside these boundaries.

 

[Uber Genius]

I believe in the seven churches as ages

How would you justify your belief?

Is there any exegetical reasons to think that Jesus is not specifically dealing with Churches under John's oversight?

If we are going to transform this passage into an allegory, when it reads like a local prophecy discussing near-term judgements and encouragements like an epistle) then can't we transform any epistle, or apocalyptic genre into an allegory?

I would need to see some reasons that the original audience would have interpreted this passage allegorically, as opposed to straightening up their act (Laodicia).

 

[Basil Isaacks]

Actually, the seven churches of Asia Minor were all active Orthodox Churches and were not destroyed until 1922, when the Orthodox Christians in Turkey were forced to move to Greece because of a population exchange arranged by the League of Nations.

 

[rockytopva]

Going back to the OP... Are we all being affected by the spirit of the Laodicean church? I think we are. As far as the disagreements as to the geographies and time frames, you have every right to dispute. I cannot argue, I can only point out the contrasts and similarities.

 

[rockytopva]

Actually, the seven churches of Asia Minor were all active Orthodox Churches and were not destroyed until 1922, when the Orthodox Christians in Turkey were forced to move to Greece because of a population exchange arranged by the League of Nations.

In the Philadelphian church they taught a second experience. This was referred to by many names such as sanctification, 'getting religion', the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I have posted an example here...

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-life-of-george-clark-rankin.7757196/

The Philadelphians would not let you claim this experience until the Christ came shinning through. In Pentecostal circles some would say, "No you don't have no Holy Ghost come back tomorrow night." And they would stay around the altar until they received it.

In these Laodicean times...

1. Are there altars?
2. Do any bother to pray around them?
3. Are there any more revivals?

When I got saved there were revivals everywhere and the old timers taught the people to tarry around the altar. When you got religion you got it with a sweet spirit and a changed life. The spirit around these Virginia mountains was one of love and warmth, very much like you see in the old Walton's reruns.

I hate to see the old spirit of revival dissipate away! Unless you have experienced religion in this manner you do not know what I am talking about and it appears very much as an exaggeration. Especially among the congregations who have never experienced revival.

 

[rockytopva]

You can debate and chasten me over my interpretation of the seven churches. However, I must point out, that most people in society don't really care. The idea of church, God, doctrine, and the like is something that they do not care to think about. They have gone totally cold on Christ and what Christian congregation they were brought up in. This to me is the Laodicean spirit that has crept in.

 

[Tinyarch]

You can debate and chasten me over my interpretation of the seven churches. However, I must point out, that most people in society don't really care. The idea of church, God, doctrine, and the like is something that they do not care to think about. They have gone totally cold on Christ and what Christian congregation they were brought up in. This to me is the Laodicean spirit that has crept in.

If they are totally cold, they can't be Laodicean. [emoji41]