Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

[Wayne Gabler]

I literally just showed you that this isn't true, and then you just restate the same argument.

Why wouldn't I, it shows I am not guilty of doing what you claim I am doing?

"You are putting the start of the 5th Trumpet at the same time as the start of the 6th Trumpet."

 

[tranquil]

Why wouldn't I, it shows I am not guilty of doing what you claim I am doing?

"You are putting the start of the 5th Trumpet at the same time as the start of the 6th Trumpet."

The 6th Trumpet is not 37 months long!

Bye, bye. This is tedious.

 

[Jamdoc]

1) I do not believe in a 'whisked away' rapture - or, as you put it, a 'poof' rapture. There is being 'gathered'. People will gather to the beast or they will gather to God. The people of God who gather and are gathered are the 'living waters' of Zech 14:8 (the 144,000 and the 'great multitude'). The 'locusts' are the 'unliving waters'. There are 2 wraths: at the start of the 'day of the Lord's wrath' which starts at the Trumpets and the 2nd wrath at the 7th Trumpet which contains the bowls of wrath.

Because there is no 'poof' rapture, only being gathered, it really isn't a problem to say that people are gathered 2x.



The connecting clause is Rev 10:11's 'you must prophesy again'. The 1st is describing God judging the temple of God - meaning the Christian church that goes apostate - this is the 'cutting off of the grain & wine offering' in Joel 1:9.

Surely you have seen the discussions on the board: amillenial vs. premillenial; Rome vs. Jerusalem etc. It is both. Amillenial in the sense that there is an unbroken millenium for faithful Christians. Premillenial for Jews and apostate Christians. The 1st prophesying was describing God not allowing Christians to blaspheme His holy name anymore - God will punish the church. After that the little horn will usher in the Jewish millenium and make the covenant and then break it. The breaking of the covenant of Dan 9:27 occurs in the Jewish millenium when Israel is living in the 'center of the land'/ 'navel of the world' (Ezek 38:12) meaning during the millenium/ messianic era. That is the 2nd prophesying - that is for Jews in the messianic era, which is why Jerusalem is described as being tainted with Egypt & Sodom in Rev 11:8.

That is the 2nd wrath, the 'again' of Rev 10:11 which occurs at the 7th Trumpet and causes the 7 bowls of wrath.

So again, 1st the church is judged, cutting off the grain & wine offerings (communion), then the Jews live in the messianic era and break the covenant of Dan 9:27 (which is about animal sacrifices, 'zebach') at the 7th Trumpet, causing the 2nd wrath of God.

Also, where does it say that there is only 1 earthquake that occurs? Are you really saying that the great earthquake of Rev 6:12 (at the 6th Seal), the earthquake of Rev 8:5 (at the start of the Trumpets), Rev 11:13's 'great earthquake' (at the end of the 2nd woe/ 6th Trumpet), and Rev 16:18's 'great earthquake' (at the 7th Bowl of wrath) are all the same earthquake?

There are not multiple resurrections and there is no 'poof' rapture - not even once.



The wicked are living normal lives before the Trumpets

they don't repent at Rev 9:20-21 after the killing of a third of mankind

the wicked go back to living normal lives before the Bowls of wrath. They think they are in the millenium.

Also, I think you said that the great tribulation would be over at the 6th Seal, but the great tribulation either still is occurring at the 6th Trumpet or only occurs at the 6th Trumpet. If you look at the 4th Seal, this says that death is given dominion over a fourth of the earth. Then at the 6th Trumpet, this part during Rev 9:13-21, explicitly says that it kills a third of mankind.

Let's say that the 4th Seal kills a fourth of mankind. Let's say that the population is 8 billion, that kills off 2 billion, leaving 6 billion. Then at the 6th Trumpet, this kills off a third, which would be another 2 billion (6/3 = 2). 2 billion vs. 2 billion.

In other words, no matter what amount you input here, the quarter kill-off amount of the 4th Seal will always equal the kill-off amount of the 6th Trumpet. Meaning that the 'great tribulation' is still occurring during the Trumpets.

You've allegorized it all to meaninglessness.. guess there's no point in continuing to talk to you because you've gone down a track where you can make scripture mean whatever it is in your own mind rather than what the words actually say.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The 6th Trumpet is not 37 months long!

Bye, bye. This is tedious.

Re:8:12-13:
And the fourth angel sounded,
and the third part of the sun was smitten,
and the third part of the moon,
and the third part of the stars;
so as the third part of them was darkened,
and the day shone not for a third part of it,
and the night likewise.
And I beheld,
and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe,
woe,
woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound!

42 - 5 = 37
Re:9:12-13:
One woe is past;
and,
behold,
there come two woes more hereafter.
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Re:11:14-15:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and,
behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.

Do you know what great things a mouth speaks refers to?

Compare this with Revelation 13

Rev 13:2-5
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

It is God who gives Satan (dragon) and his minions (false prophets and christs) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies that he continues forty and two months. When they open their mouths in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven, it is because God gave it to them! Yet they are so deceived and deluded, they blasphemy without knowing they are blaspheming! This is what it's all about. For example, there are an increasing number of false prophets telling their congregations that God loves homosexuals and that they should allow them to be pastors or wed gay couples at the church. That is blasphemy. This is how Satan gave them power and rule through them... and God allows him to come and rule in his congregation to deceive people without the seal of God as a judgment. This is what it's all about! Nothing to do with single man in Europe with 7 years peace treaty with national Israel. Not at all!

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Do you know what great things a mouth speaks refers to?

Compare this with Revelation 13

Rev 13:2-5
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

It is God who gives Satan (dragon) and his minions (false prophets and christs) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies that he continues forty and two months. When they open their mouths in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven, it is because God gave it to them! Yet they are so deceived and deluded, they blasphemy without knowing they are blaspheming! This is what it's all about. For example, there are an increasing number of false prophets telling their congregations that God loves homosexuals and that they should allow them to be pastors or wed gay couples at the church. That is blasphemy. This is how Satan gave them power and rule through them... and God allows him to come and rule in his congregation to deceive people without the seal of God as a judgment. This is what it's all about! Nothing to do with single man in Europe with 7 years peace treaty with national Israel. Not at all!

My reference was from 10 men being mentioned. The image you are referencing is an imitation of the throne in the Re:4 Temple. The voice that is heard is that of the Holy Spirit. That is also the abomination in the verses below:
Re:4:5:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,
which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re:13:14-15:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

M't:24:14-16:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
2Th:2:3-4:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Re:18:5:
For her sins have reached unto heaven,
and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[5thKingdom]

It is God who gives Satan (dragon) and his minions (false prophets and christs) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies that he continues forty and two months.

The Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast / Daniel's Fourth Beast / Satan's "Little Season"
DOES NOT LAST for 42 months (3.5 years)


The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years "42 mos"
and 3.5 "watches of the night"... did Tony not teach you this?


Erik... THINK what you are saying...
We know the "Abomination of Desolation" (in the Fourth Beast) continues for 2300 days (literal days... literally "evenings/mornings")
So, how in the world could the Fourth Kingdom be for 42 months... when the AOD is for 6.4 years!!!


The Last Kingdom before the Lord's Return - consisting of "Ten Virgins" and "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns",
these same people are shown in other passages (by many different names) and each passage must be harmonized to have Truth.
Below is a (partial) list of Biblical names given – to represent the people living during Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven".


Erik, notice ALL the places where Scripture defines the DURATION of the Fourth Beast...
You did not really imagine the Bible does not talk about the Fourth Beast in MANY different passages.
You need to HARMONIZE all related Scriptures before you can offer an "informed opinion"
on the DURATION of the Fourth Beast.


The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]

The "Mighty and Holy People" who are "destroyed" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Sanctuary and Host" that are "trodden under foot" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for 42 months/3.5 years [Rev 11]

The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" (the Anti-Christ's hand) for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the Anti-Christ for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]

The "Woman" which is hidden from the face of the "serpent" for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

The "Witnesses" which are "overcome" and "killed" by Satan for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

The "Kingdom" which is "overflown" and "broken" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]

The "Host and the Stars" that are "cast down" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]


While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins" that "went forth"
into the 4th Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7] as the "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns"
that were "given into the hand" of the Anti-Christ... and they are shown [Rev 17] as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns"
that "agreed to give their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains (literally) DOZENS of other passages that talk about
these same people, and every one of the passages must be harmonized before we can pretend to have more than partial-truth.


Jim

/

 

[5thKingdom]

It is God who gives Satan (dragon) and his minions (false prophets and christs) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies that he continues forty and two months.

The Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast / Daniel's Fourth Beast / Satan's "Little Season"
DOES NOT LAST for 42 months (3.5 years)


The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years "42 mos"
and 3.5 "watches of the night"... did Tony not teach you this?


Erik... THINK what you are saying...
We know the "Abomination of Desolation" (in the Fourth Beast) continues for 2300 days (literal days... literally "evenings/mornings")
So, how in the world could the Fourth Kingdom be for 42 months... when the AOD is for 6.4 years!!!


The Last Kingdom before the Lord's Return - consisting of "Ten Virgins" and "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns",
these same people are shown in other passages (by many different names) and each passage must be harmonized to have Truth.
Below is a (partial) list of Biblical names given – to represent the people living during Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven".


Erik, notice ALL the places where Scripture defines the DURATION of the Fourth Beast...
You did not really imagine the Bible does not talk about the Fourth Beast in MANY different passages.
You need to HARMONIZE all related Scriptures before you can offer an "informed opinion"
on the DURATION of the Fourth Beast.


The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]

The "Mighty and Holy People" who are "destroyed" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Sanctuary and Host" that are "trodden under foot" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for 42 months/3.5 years [Rev 11]

The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" (the Anti-Christ's hand) for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the Anti-Christ for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]

The "Woman" which is hidden from the face of the "serpent" for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

The "Witnesses" which are "overcome" and "killed" by Satan for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

The "Kingdom" which is "overflown" and "broken" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]

The "Host and the Stars" that are "cast down" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]


While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins" that "went forth"
into the 4th Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7] as the "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns"
that were "given into the hand" of the Anti-Christ... and they are shown [Rev 17] as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns"
that "agreed to give their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains (literally) DOZENS of other passages that talk about
these same people, and every one of the passages must be harmonized before we can pretend to have more than partial-truth.


Jim

/

 

[TribulationSigns]

My reference was from 10 men being mentioned.

NO biblical reference to "10 men". If you believe the horn represents man, then you are mistaken.

The image you are referencing is an imitation of the throne in the Re:4 Temple. The voice that is heard is that of the Holy Spirit. That is also the abomination in the verses below:
Re:4:5:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,
which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re:13:14-15:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

M't:24:14-16:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
2Th:2:3-4:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Re:18:5:
For her sins have reached unto heaven,
and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Sorry, you do not make any sense here. Your point is?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

NO biblical reference to "10 men". If you believe the horn represents man, then you are mistaken.



Sorry, you do not make any sense here. Your point is?

You forgot to include what you think the correct answer is.
Have you considered that if I can write something, and you find it confusing that the problem is on your end and not mine? My reference does mention men talking, after all.

There are 5 more verses in this passage that say the very same thing.
Da:7:24:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:
and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings.

A horn is a voice saying something:
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[tranquil]

You've allegorized it all to meaninglessness.. guess there's no point in continuing to talk to you because you've gone down a track where you can make scripture mean whatever it is in your own mind rather than what the words actually say.

And what did I allegorize to meaninglessness?

I literally post verses in every post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You forgot to include what you think the correct answer is.
Have you considered that if I can write something, and you find it confusing that the problem is on your end and not mine? My reference does mention men talking, after all.

There are 5 more verses in this passage that say the very same thing.
Da:7:24:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:
and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings.

A horn is a voice saying something:
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I have explained my biblical position on horns, so you need to check my previous posts. And you also need to study the spiritual signification of numbers in Scripture. Eg. the ten horns, the four horns, the seven horns, etc. God did not interpret the ten horns are ten men or ten voices. which is absurd.

 

[tranquil]

Re:8:12-13:
And the fourth angel sounded,
and the third part of the sun was smitten,
and the third part of the moon,
and the third part of the stars;
so as the third part of them was darkened,
and the day shone not for a third part of it,
and the night likewise.
And I beheld,
and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe,
woe,
woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound!

42 - 5 = 37
Re:9:12-13:
One woe is past;
and,
behold,
there come two woes more hereafter.
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Re:11:14-15:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 8:13 directly says that the woes are the trumpets.

13Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”​

But you want to say that the 5th & 6th Trumpets start at the same time - thus you are saying that the woes are starting at the same time - which they most assuredly are not.

 

[TribulationSigns]

A horn is a voice saying something:
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Do you even know the significance of the four horns upon the golden altar anyway? Scripture has something to say about that, but let us know if you find this in Scripture, and let us hear what your answer going to be.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I have explained my biblical position on horns, so you need to check my previous posts. And you also need to study the spiritual signification of numbers in Scripture. Eg. the ten horns, the four horns, the seven horns, etc. God did not interpret the ten horns are ten men or ten voices. which is absurd.

No, that is fine, I only need to read them once to determine their value. If you can't see men talking in these verses that is something you will have to take up with God Himself:

Da:7:7-8:
After this I saw in the night visions,
and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible,
and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth:
it devoured and brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;
and it had ten horns.
I considered the horns,
and,
behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.

Da:7:11:
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake:
I beheld even till the beast was slain,
and his body destroyed,
and given to the burning flame.

Da:7:20:
And of the ten horns that were in his head,
and of the other which came up,
and before whom three fell;
even of that horn that had eyes,
and a mouth that spake very great things,
whose look was more stout than his fellows.

I doubt bolding the important words will help, they only help when the reader is a child.

 

[Jamdoc]

And what did I allegorize to meaninglessness?

I literally post verses in every post.

When instead of in context letting scripture explain its own symbols and then if NOT explained as a symbol you take it with a plain reading, you've gone to coming up with "meanings" to "symbols" when not explained as such.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Rev 8:13 directly says that the woes are the trumpets.

13Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”​

But you want to say that the 5th & 6th Trumpets start at the same time - thus you are saying that the woes are starting at the same time - which they most assuredly are not.

Post a quote where I say something different from the 42 months starting the day the 5th trump sounds and the 6th trumps sounds 5 months later when there is only 37 months left of the 42 months left.
Then you can cover how much time you think is left when the verses in Re:11 say the 2nd woe has ended. The 7th trump is the 3rd woe that sounds at the end of the whole of the 42 months is their destruction that come from God that kills several fallen angels and kills 2/3 of the men alive because they believed Satan's lie. Would that wrath be consider a woe by the people it kills?

42 months from the sound of the 5th trump until the 7th trump sounds.
If you find that confusing, you should run it past somebody before you post what you have been posting again.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

When instead of in context letting scripture explain its own symbols and then if NOT explained as a symbol you take it with a plain reading, you've gone to coming up with "meanings" to "symbols" when not explained as such.

Stubborn people should read the visions in Da:2, Da:7, and Re:17 if they want to gain some wisdom. Should they refuse somthing that is that easy they are not out to learn anything, their mission is to make sure believers can talk about the Bible and gains some more wisdom to add to what they already know.
Why else would you have so many people in 'a Christian only forum' where some members deny what is plainly written?

Ga:5:10-15:
I have confidence in you through the Lord,
that ye will be none otherwise minded:
but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment,
whosoever he be.
And I,
brethren,
if I yet preach circumcision,
why do I yet suffer persecution?
then is the offence of the cross ceased.
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
For,
brethren,
ye have been called unto liberty;
only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,
but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word,
even in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But if ye bite and devour one another,
take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, that is fine, I only need to read them once to determine their value.

If you don't see the value of answering this valid question, then it actually means you do not know the answer.

Let's try again, Wayne:

"Do you even know the significance of the four horns upon the golden altar anyway? Scripture has something to say about that, but let us know if you find this in Scripture, let hear what your answer going to be."

Guess you can't find the answer within Scripture to this question? Or do you make an excuse for not doing some research because it's not a value to you?

I am waiting.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

"Do you even know the significance of the four horns upon the golden altar anyway? Scripture has something to say about that, but let us know if you find this in Scripture, let hear what your answer going to be."

Guess you can't find the answer within Scripture to this question? Or do you make an excuse for not doing some research because it's not a value to you?

I am waiting.

You forgot to post the verses you mentioned.
"Scripture has something to say about that"

Do you mean the 4 horns that are saying something with their own voices?
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

(yet in your world that means something else all altogether? Id that why you won't post it as a verse from your favourite Bible? Which version is that again?

Do the prayers said by real Christians come as sounds from those horns?? How about these Saints?
Re:8:3:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Does the Throne have its own voice? Since it does, whose voice would it be, the Holy Spirit from Ge:1:2?
Re:4:5:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,
which are the seven Spirits of God.