Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

[DavidPT]

David, the trumpets are announcements. They announce events particularly damaging to them living on earth.

The first six trumpet events are grouped together in Revelation 8-9. They take place in sequence.

Separate from that group is the seventh trumpet. It does not follow the timeline sequence like the other group of trumpets 1 thru 6.

The seventh trumpet announces (paraphrased) that God finally has had enough of Satan's control over the nations, and his kingdom of Babylon the Great.... and begins the process of taking the nations of the world away from Satan. So when the seventh trumpet sounds, Satan and his angels (making up his kingdom) are cast down to earth. (in Revelation 18, the dismantling of Satan's kingdom is the Babylon has fallen, has fallen)

Which Satan when cast down to earth is the angel falling from heaven in Revelation 9. Satan, knowing he has but a short time left, opens the bottomless pit and all those evil residents come out, including evil angels and the tormenting locust creatures - which could be demonic beings in that form.

When trumpets are sounded certain events follow, meaning during the time of that particular trumpet. The 3 woes prove it. For example, the 5th trumpet.

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

This should mean that this 5 months of being tormented, that period of time is over and in the past when the 6th trumpet sounds, which then means no one is still being tormented by locusts during the 6th trumpet nor the 7th trumpet, nor were they being tormented by locusts during the first 4 trumpets. Which means during the 7th trumpet satan isn't opening the pit during the 5th trumpet and letting the locusts out in order to torment for 5 months those that do not have the seal of God in their forehead. All of that is in the past. Revelation 9:12 makes that crystal clear.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

How can in those days mean during the days of the 7th trumpet when they only involve the days pertaining to the 5th trumpet?

As to the 7th trumpet, none of that has to do with satan being cast to the earth at that time. The 7th trumpet is the wrath of God and starts during the 6th seal, and according to Matthew 24:29, the 6th seal events are after the trib of those days, not before or during the trib of those days instead. The trib of those days obviously meaning great tribulation. It is during the 6th seal that begins the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is not even involving great tribulation . Unless one wants to argue, that when the beast wages war on the saints, overcomes them, then kills some of them, that this is God's wrath on these saints rather satan's wrath on these saints. A lot of us take the 42 month reign of the beast to be involving great tribulation.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The quick way to date the trumps it is to use the return as the same day He resurrects the two witnesses (Re:11) On that day, the 42 month period that starts when the 5th trump sounds. The Beast kills the two witnesses 4 days before he is sent to the fiery lake. 42 months and 1260 days are equal in length. The 1260 days of the two witnesses began the same day the 1st trump sounds, they die and 4 days later they are alive again. From the 1st trump to #7 is 1264 days, 1260 days before the 7th trump sounds the 5th trumps sounds, the math pints to the 1st 4 trumps having to sound in the same length of time the two witnesses are dead, 4 days. In that time, the world went from peaceful to martial law. Within 1 hour of the 5th trump sounding, all those armies surrendered to one fallen angel.
The seals are prophecies, the 7 vials are what happen after the 7th trump sounds in Re:11, all of Re:16 is fulfilled in just 4 hours.

 

[DavidPT]

Problem is you read too much into the "beast coming out of the pit" I think, it's not referring to the 5th trumpet.

remember that chapters and verse numbering are not inspired. Revelation 10 is parenthetical right? The first half of Revelation 11 is as well. It's explaining things that have been going on, not that there's 3.5 years between the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet. The Earthquake and resurrection of the 2 witnesses I find as evidence that it's the 6th seal, in essence the 2 witnesses may be the last people killed in the Great Tribulation.

The connecting verse to bring us back to Chronology is Revelation 7:14.

While some of Revelation 11 might be parenthetical, the following still undeniably proves that the beast makes war with the 2Ws, overcomes them, then kills them, in the days involving the 6th trumpet. IOW, when the 2Ws are being made war against, overcome, then killed, this would still be involving great tribulation, not God's wrath during the 6th seal instead. God's wrath doesn't even begin until the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Verse 14 indicates the 2nd woe is past, obviously meaning the events involving the 6th trumpet. Then it states the third woe cometh quickly. Obviously, meaning the events involving the 7th trumpet. Does not verse 11 indicate, that during the time of the 6th trumpet, the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them?

And does not verse 13 indicate---And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven?

Are you going to argue that this same hour in question, it is meaning during the time of the 6th trumpet, but what verse 11 and 12 are involving, this isn't meaning during the time of the 6th trumpet?

 

[tranquil]

Extra points for thinking it through! I'm not quite ready to accept the spiritual failures bit.

The more I think about it, the more it does seem like a reference to the weeping and gnashing of teeth. The mark would be the invitation to the false 'kingdom of heaven' that they thought they were excluded from.

In modern terms, this idea of being a 'spiritual failure' would be the equivalent to people thinking that they are 'left behind'.

In my opinion, the idea of the whisked away rapture is not Biblical and yet is promoted because it is part of the strong delusion. There will be a faked 'rapture' along with the pharmakia of Rev 18:23 whereby people will feel like they are having an 'out of body experience' only to 'come back to earth', and thus feeling 'left behind'.

This exact emotion will fuel much of the (bad) change in society.

 

[tranquil]

I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars aren't "hims". This star must be a non-literal reference. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage to be non-literal.

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Why 5 months?
And what is the torment of a scorpion like?
Here's a description from emedicinehealth.com:
Severe signs and symptoms of a sting from a scorpion include numbness throughout the body, difficulty swallowing, a thick tongue, blurred vision, roving eye movements, seizures, salivation, and difficulty breathing.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

If the main point of these locusts is to wield the power of scorpions, why do they need "teeth of lions"? Because it indicates the authority of rulers.

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

"Breastplates of iron" mean they have been made impervious to attack, even possibly political or spiritual attack, while the sound of the wings like chariots and horses running to battle reiterates the speed and power of military action and enforcement.

[Rev 9:10 KJV] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
[Rev 9:11 KJV] And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The main thing these creatures try to accomplish is the name of their leader, "destruction".

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

View attachment 326385
The same government was of no use against the Antifa and BLM riots, but allowed them to perpetrate their destruction.

The scorpion sting symptoms are reminiscent of either Covid or the vaccine (myocarditis, blood clots, strokes, and general loss of immunity to many diseases). Mostly people aren't dying from the vaccine, though some are, and the supposed purpose is to keep people from dying. Many who are refusing to take the vaccine are believers (which may account for the text that says the believers are sealed against the locusts).

What do you think?

The locusts are these people from Deut 28, part of the curses for disobedience.

33 A people you do not know will eat the produce of your land and of all your toil. All your days you will be oppressed and crushed. 34You will be driven mad by the sights you see.​

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35The LORD will afflict you with painful, incurable boils on your knees and thighs, from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.​

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36The LORD will bring you and the king you appoint to a nation neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone. 37You will become an object of horror, scorn, and ridicule among all the nations to which the LORD will drive you.​

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38You will sow much seed in the field but harvest little, because the locusts will consume it.​

​

It is a poetic comparison of an enemy army to literal locusts that are eating up all the food.

It is 5 months because that is the compliment to Ezek 39:12's burying Gog for 7 months.

5 months + 7 months = 12 months = 1 'day of the Lord's wrath'.

God is sending Gog's (locusts) as a punishment for disobedience.

The 'scorpion sting' is the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' of people who think that they have been 'left behind' from the kingdom of heaven.

These locusts come at the start of the 'day of the Lord's wrath', which will be on a Feast of Tabernacles/ 15 Tishri.

There is no way that the 6th Seal has arrived yet (when the Day of the Lord's wrath is announced) as it will unmistakably look like the 'end of the world'.

 

[DavidPT]

The quick way to date the trumps it is to use the return as the same day He resurrects the two witnesses (Re:11) On that day, the 42 month period that starts when the 5th trump sounds. The Beast kills the two witnesses 4 days before he is sent to the fiery lake. 42 months and 1260 days are equal in length. The 1260 days of the two witnesses began the same day the 1st trump sounds, they die and 4 days later they are alive again. From the 1st trump to #7 is 1264 days, 1260 days before the 7th trump sounds the 5th trumps sounds, the math pints to the 1st 4 trumps having to sound in the same length of time the two witnesses are dead, 4 days. In that time, the world went from peaceful to martial law. Within 1 hour of the 5th trump sounding, all those armies surrendered to one fallen angel.
The seals are prophecies, the 7 vials are what happen after the 7th trump sounds in Re:11, all of Re:16 is fulfilled in just 4 hours.

For things to make sense to me, though I still could be wrong, the 42 month reign is not paralleling the 1260 days the 2Ws are prophesying, it follows it. If the beast is making war on saints during the 42 months that it reigns, and the fact the 2Ws are obviously saints, why isn't the beast waging war on the 2Ws while they are giving their testimony if the 42 month reign parallels this, but instead doesn't wage war on them until they finish their testimony?


IOW, the 2Ws prophesy first, then following that the 42 month reign of the beast begins, and that the beast wages war with them, and the 3.5 days they lie dead, this is meaning at the end of the 2nd period of time, the 42 month reign, and not at the end of the first period of time instead. Which then has them that are dwelling on the earth saying Peace and safety, the fact these 2ws that tormented them, they are finally gone. Or at least they think so. Then Revelation 11:11-12 occurs, followed by the 7th trumpet, meaning the day of the Lord.

 

[tranquil]

The word quickly is not the same as soon. What is meant is that once these events start they will progress rapidly it won't take hundreds or thousands of years but it'll be over in 1 generation. Same thing Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. The Fig tree would WITHER in the time of the Apostles, it would not bring forth new leaves (but note it is not bringing forth fruit, just leaves)

If THIS was the new earth promised? This sin cursed Satan ruled ball of filth? I'd be disappointed in God. No. things have not happened yet.



Revelation 7 makes a distinction between a 144k remnant from the tribes of Israel, and a great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation. Both groups are saved, but God does point out a distinction that there is a remnant of physical Jews saved.

Once you start allegorizing everything of course you can claim that scripture means whatever you want.

But that doesn't make it true.


Problem is you read too much into the "beast coming out of the pit" I think, it's not referring to the 5th trumpet.

remember that chapters and verse numbering are not inspired. Revelation 10 is parenthetical right? The first half of Revelation 11 is as well. It's explaining things that have been going on, not that there's 3.5 years between the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet. The Earthquake and resurrection of the 2 witnesses I find as evidence that it's the 6th seal, in essence the 2 witnesses may be the last people killed in the Great Tribulation.

The connecting verse to bring us back to Chronology is Revelation 7:14.

Why would Rev 10 be parenthetical? The 6th Trumpet starts in Rev 9:13 and specifically ends in Rev 11:14. It is divided into 2 parts: the 'hour, day, month, year' that kills off a third of mankind and then the 2 witnesses 1260 days.

The 2 witnesses are in sackcloth (Rev 11:3) because the locusts have cut off the grain & drink offering at the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath in Joel 1:4-15 which occurs at the start of the Trumpets/ start of the 1st woe's locusts.

The Day of the Lord's wrath is when the man of sin is revealed - at the beginning of events, not the end.

 

[Douggg]

This should mean that this 5 months of being tormented, that period of time is over and in the past when the 6th trumpet sounds, which then means no one is still being tormented by locusts during the 6th trumpet...

David, I don't disagree with the above part of your statement. But, I do disagree with the below part...

...nor the 7th trumpet

I fully understand your point that numerically speaking, 7 comes after 6 on a number line.

However, in Revelation, the numerical listing is also according to grouping (i.e. chapters 8-9). Trumpets 1-6, therefore, are sequential, timeline-wise. Differently, trumpet 7 (a woe) (in chapter 11) overlays that timeline for trumpets 5 and 6 (both woes).

I think the chart shows this better.

When the 7th trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth, the woe to the inhabiters of the earth (and sea) will be for the time/times/half time. As the angel falling in Revelation 9, the first thing he will do is open the bottomless pit, releasing the flesh tormenting locust and their king Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit.

 

[Douggg]

For things to make sense to me, though I still could be wrong, the 42 month reign is not paralleling the 1260 days the 2Ws are prophesying, it follows it. If the beast is making war on saints during the 42 months that it reigns, and the fact the 2Ws are obviously saints, why isn't the beast waging war on the 2Ws while they are giving their testimony if the 42 month reign parallels this, but instead doesn't wage war on them until they finish their testimony?


IOW, the 2Ws prophesy first, then following that the 42 month reign of the beast begins, and that the beast wages war with them, and the 3.5 days they lie dead, this is meaning at the end of the 2nd period of time, the 42 month reign, and not at the end of the first period of time instead. Which then has them that are dwelling on the earth saying Peace and safety, the fact these 2ws that tormented them, they are finally gone. Or at least they think so. Then Revelation 11:11-12 occurs, followed by the 7th trumpet, meaning the day of the Lord.

In the first half
the 1260 days of the two witnesses

In the second half
the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses' bodies lay dead - the world celebrates, "who can make war against the beast"
the 42 month rule of the beast - unhampered by the two witnesses who will have ascended to heaven
the time/times/half time - last days of Satan as terror

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 17:8

• " The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

A little background for anyone interested. The beasts of Revelation 13 and 17 are a figure or representation of the body of Satan, the spiritual kingdom of Satan as "the god of this world." For example, when it says locusts are loosed from the bottomless pit, that is a figure signifying those who are of Satan coming forth on the earth through his spirit. Not literal or semi-literal or physical locusts out of hell with Satan, but actual people, like the false prophets and christs, who rise up through the power or spirit of Satan. Those with the spirit of antichrist! They are simply people with the antichrist spirit coming forth through that power of Satan.

They are (spiritually speaking) his body, just as those of the Spirit of Christ is Spiritually His body. The beast represents his carnal kingdom, those who are his children and his ministers. Satan is personified as this beast representing his kingdom. The Dragon, which is Satan himself, gives the beast or his kingdom its power (Revelation 13:4). This signifies Satan gives them their strength. Therefore, the beast is NOT about one man who will have supernatural power as Dispensationalists dream of. They are wasting their time looking for a single man while the body of the beast is already here, if you have spiritual eyes to see.

And yes, I am back!

 

[Jamdoc]

While some of Revelation 11 might be parenthetical, the following still undeniably proves that the beast makes war with the 2Ws, overcomes them, then kills them, in the days involving the 6th trumpet. IOW, when the 2Ws are being made war against, overcome, then killed, this would still be involving great tribulation, not God's wrath during the 6th seal instead. God's wrath doesn't even begin until the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Verse 14 indicates the 2nd woe is past, obviously meaning the events involving the 6th trumpet. Then it states the third woe cometh quickly. Obviously, meaning the events involving the 7th trumpet. Does not verse 11 indicate, that during the time of the 6th trumpet, the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them?

And does not verse 13 indicate---And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven?

Are you going to argue that this same hour in question, it is meaning during the time of the 6th trumpet, but what verse 11 and 12 are involving, this isn't meaning during the time of the 6th trumpet?

7:14 is the jump back into Chronology, but prior.
the earthquake, and resurrection, point at the 6th seal, where there is also a great earthquake, and Revelation 7 is.. showing results of a resurrection.

That's why I say you read too much into the beast coming out of the pit, connecting it with the 5th trumpet. You have the wrath of God starting before the midpoint of the 70th week, and then you get into the weeds of it not being like the days of Noah and days of Lot when Jesus returns, with Jesus characterizing normal life. The trumpets and bowls are anything BUT normal life.

Try to think about it for a moment.

Who is planning weddings during any of the trumpets or bowls?

I think nobody.

That's why I think that there has to be a period of time where it's normal for most people in the world, and great tribulation is specifically persecution of Christians. If you're a Christian, great tribulation, if you're not a Christian, planting and sowing and building and marrying and giving in marriage... normal life.

Because you have to reconcile 2 apparently contradicting statements, that the second coming will be at the end of the great tribulation, and that the second coming it'll be life going on as normal.

If great tribulation means the wrath of God.. you cannot reconcile those statements. They are opposed to each other.
But if Great tribulation is specific to religious persecution but for those who take the mark of the beast it's a normal life? It fits perfectly.
So it fits with the 6th seal preceding the trumpets, it does not fit with a resurrection happening during the 6th trumpet.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why would Rev 10 be parenthetical? The 6th Trumpet starts in Rev 9:13 and specifically ends in Rev 11:14. It is divided into 2 parts: the 'hour, day, month, year' that kills off a third of mankind and then the 2 witnesses 1260 days.

The 2 witnesses are in sackcloth (Rev 11:3) because the locusts have cut off the grain & drink offering at the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath in Joel 1:4-15 which occurs at the start of the Trumpets/ start of the 1st woe's locusts.

The Day of the Lord's wrath is when the man of sin is revealed - at the beginning of events, not the end.

Because it takes place not in Chronological order, there's no connecting clause of "and after these things", The Earthquake and resurrection mark it near the 6th seal, unless you believe there are multiple resurrections and raptures.

You cannot fit days of Noah or days of Lot into a traditional "post trib" (really post wrath) view.

Pretribulationists do it by splitting it into 2 events, a pretribulation poof rapture, and "the second coming" which somehow ignores all scripture connecting the two happening at the same time, so they say the days of Noah and days of Lot passage are talking about the rapture not the second coming, because it has to be normal life up to that point. Funnily enough, pretribulationists stumble over another aspect of what Jesus was teaching in Luke 17, because they think the rapture has to happen before anything bad happens, they don't see how the wrath of God starts right after Noah and Lot are taken to safety, so they have a "post rapture gap" of time before anything happens.

The pictures of Noah and Lot paint a multilayered image.
of both the types of sin going on in the world at that time, Jesus emphasizing that people lived normal lives with every day happening right up until the flood/sodom destroyed by the wrath of God, the righteous were persecuted and mocked when they tried to warn, and both Noah and Lot were taken to safety the same day as the wrath of God suddenly hit the rest.

if the rapture and second coming are the same event, then they have to happen during a time where wicked people are living normal lives, building things and planning weddings (so not during the wrath of God but before), but the righteous are persecuted, and the same day the righteous are taken to safety... the world gets hammered by the wrath of God.

it fits a 6th seal/prewrath view. It could fit a pretrib view if you want to ignore that the second coming happens prior to the resurrection (the Lord comes down from heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4, before the resurrection or rapture), and that the second coming happens after the tribulation of those days... it does not fit a post wrath/post trib view.

 

[5thKingdom]

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

The smoke and darkness represents the false doctrines taught by the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin).
The Last Saints are "overcome" by the Anti-Christ because he comes "with flatteries" (teaching a sound Gospel)
but he does MORE... he comes understanding "dark sentences" (Biblical mysteries about the end-times)


Remember, the Last Saints are excellent theologians.
In order to "overcome" them the Anti-Christ needed to be the BEST theologian... with NEW information.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

NO... they are not literal locusts.
The locusts represent the last "wheat and tares" that were "harvested" OUT of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and INTO the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom. In the OT "locusts" sometimes represented false prophets.


The locusts represent the "Ten Virgins" of Matthew 25
The locusts represent the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" of Daniel 7
The locusts represent the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" of Rev 17
The locusts represent the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Toes" of Daniel 2


Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Before we can understand the Truth about the Last Saints we must understand the lived during
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]. The church assumed the Great Tribulation was PART
of the Church Age. In fact, the Bible PROMISES [Dan 7:23] it is a separate and distinct "Beast" from the Christian Kingdom.
The Last Saints are PART of the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" that were "harvested" into Daniel's Fourth Beast / the Revelation Beast.


Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven”.


Only the Last Saints are able understand the context of there being four “Kingdoms/Beasts” upon the earth.
The churches thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (3rd) Christian Kingdom, just as Temples thought
“Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (2nd) Jewish Kingdom. However, the Bible promised the truth about the
“Time-of-the-End” would remain “closed-up” and “sealed” to all the Saints – until the Last Saints “shall understand”.
All “Time-of-the-End” passages are related to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” on earth, not the Third Beast.

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

The locusts are not bugs... they represent the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.


The Saints AFTER the Great Commission is finished at the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20] and
The Saints AFTER the Last Saint was "sealed" before the Great Tribulation could begin [Rev 7:1-3]
The Saints AFTER Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit for his "Little Season" [Rev 20:7]


The Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" contain the Last "wheat" and the Last "tares"
who were "harvested" OUT of the Third Beast and INTO the Fourth Beast on earth.

The Last "wheat" have the "seal of God"... they are saved
The Last "tares" do not have the "seal"... they are not saved.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Not being "killed" represents not being "killed with Christ"... not being saved.
The Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) BEFORE the Fourth Kingdom / Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast
could arise [Rev 7:1-3]. There is no regeneration during the Fourth Beast or Satan's "Little Season".

Why 5 months?

5 months represent the first HALF of the Great Tribulation - the FIRST Revelation Beast (1st Woe, 5th Trumpet and 7th "head/king")

This "torment" did not continue during the SECOND Revelation Beast (2nd Woe, 6th Trumpet and 8th "head/king")

And what is the torment of a scorpion like?

The "torment" was the Last Saints (some of the best theologians on earth) coming with the Gospel
of the Fourth Kingdom/Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast... which taught the Last Saints would "depart"
from their churches and follow the BEST theologian (who knew "dark sentences").

The "torment" was these church-goers could not REFUTE the Gospel of the Fourth Kingdom
but they could not follow the Gospel by "departing" from their churches.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

No, as explained above, it means they sought salvation (to be "killed with Christ")
but salvation ENDED when the Last Saint was "sealed" (saved) just BEFORE the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast
could BEGIN [Rev 7:1-3]

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Yes... the "locusts" LOOKED LIKE they were True Believers bringing the Gospel.
The language above is describing the True Believers.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

That is a nice SECULARE interpretation of SPIRITUAL language.
LOL

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

Again a picture of Believers... the women, the church
preaching the Gospel as Lions

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

Again a picture of Believers in spiritual warfare
We are given SEVERAL pictures of the "locusts" being Believers...
because the "locusts" represent the Last Saints within the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" of the Fourth Beast

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

What a secular interpretation of SPIRITUAL language.
LOL


/

 

[YahuahSaves]

The disciples asked about the signs of His coming, you're saying He didn't answer.

No I didn't... anyway, believe what you want.

 

[5thKingdom]

A little background for anyone interested. The beasts of Revelation 13 and 17 are a figure or representation of the body of Satan, the spiritual kingdom of Satan as "the god of this world."

Hello Erik,

The "Beasts" in Rev 13 and 17 are the last "wheat and tares" living in the Fourth Beast.
they are the PEOPLE following the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
as he RULES over the Saints during the Fourth Beast or Satan's "Little Season"


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Dan 7:24-25
And the TEN HORNS out of this [FOURTH] Kingdom are TEN KINGS that shall arise:
and another [Little Horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change
times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [duration of the Fourth Beast]
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


Rev 17:12-13
And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest are TEN KINGS, which have received no kingdom as yet; [when John wrote]
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.



These PEOPLE are shown as:

(1) the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" of Dan 7
(2) the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" of Rev 17
(3) the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Toes" of Dan 2:44... the people living when the Eternal Kingdom is established
(4) the Ten "Virgins" of Mat 25


In EACH case they represent the "wheat and tares" that "went forth" from the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
INTO the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven”.


Only the Last Saints are able understand the context of there being four “Kingdoms/Beasts” upon the earth.
The churches thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (3rd) Christian Kingdom, just as Temples
Thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (2nd) Jewish Kingdom. However, the Bible promised
the truth about the “Time-of-the-End” would remain “closed-up” and “sealed” to all the Saints – until
the Last Saints “shall understand”.


All “Time-of-the-End” passages are related to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” on earth, not the Third Beast.


Most New Testament “experts” claim the events in Matthew 25:1-13 are experiences of the New Testament church.
In other words, they think “THEN” is Pentecost when the early Saints “went forth” preaching the Great Commission.
But that’s not possible within the context of the passage. First, Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are revealing events within
the Great Tribulation, so the context of “THEN” would be that (4th) Great Tribulation “Kingdom of Heaven” [Mat 25:1],
instead of Pentecost in 33AD. But there’s much more – the events of the parable/prophecy never happened in history!
And no Christian church is teaching these critically important events happen in the future of the Christian Kingdom.


Mat 25:8-10
And the [unsaved] foolish [virgins] said unto the [saved] wise [virgins], Give us of your oil; for our lamps
are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the Bridegroom [Jesus] came; and they that
were ready [the Wise Virgins] went in with Him [with Jesus] to the Marriage: and THE DOOR WAS SHUT.


There is no time in history (since Pentecost) when the Saints REJECTED people looking for salvation, sending them
to some other (unnamed) group for their salvation. That just never happened in history (reality) during the period of the
Great Commission. And no “Christian” Gospel now teaches these events happen in the future. However, these events
happen exactly that way during the Great Tribulation… as the “wheat” and “tares” are separated in the “final harvest”.
Only after we understand the context of Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom” can we know when “THEN” occurs in time.

For example, when it says locusts are loosed from the bottomless pit, that is a figure signifying those who are of Satan coming forth on the earth through his spirit.

The "locusts" represent the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" as they preach their Gospel of the (4th) Great Tribulation.
It "torments" those who hear it during the Fourth Kingdom, the Great Tribulation, the Revelation Beast, Satan's "Little Season".


The CONTEXT of the "locusts" is the Fourth Beast AFTER Satan is released...
the PEOPLE the "locusts" represent are shown in Dan 7 and Rev 17 and Mat 25
this is called "harmony of Scripture" and it's the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth
until He Returns.


What is wrong Erik,
Did Tony not teach you these things?


Jim

/

 

[Derf]

The smoke and darkness represents the false doctrines taught by the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin).
The Last Saints are "overcome" by the Anti-Christ because he comes "with flatteries" (teaching a sound Gospel)
but he does MORE... he comes understanding "dark sentences" (Biblical mysteries about the end-times)


Remember, the Last Saints are excellent theologians.
In order to "overcome" them the Anti-Christ needed to be the BEST theologian... with NEW information.





NO... they are not literal locusts.
The locusts represent the last "wheat and tares" that were "harvested" OUT of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and INTO the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom. In the OT "locusts" sometimes represented false prophets.


The locusts represent the "Ten Virgins" of Matthew 25
The locusts represent the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" of Daniel 7
The locusts represent the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" of Rev 17
The locusts represent the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Toes" of Daniel 2


Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Before we can understand the Truth about the Last Saints we must understand the lived during
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]. The church assumed the Great Tribulation was PART
of the Church Age. In fact, the Bible PROMISES [Dan 7:23] it is a separate and distinct "Beast" from the Christian Kingdom.
The Last Saints are PART of the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" that were "harvested" into Daniel's Fourth Beast / the Revelation Beast.


Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven”.


Only the Last Saints are able understand the context of there being four “Kingdoms/Beasts” upon the earth.
The churches thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (3rd) Christian Kingdom, just as Temples thought
“Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (2nd) Jewish Kingdom. However, the Bible promised the truth about the
“Time-of-the-End” would remain “closed-up” and “sealed” to all the Saints – until the Last Saints “shall understand”.
All “Time-of-the-End” passages are related to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” on earth, not the Third Beast.






The locusts are not bugs... they represent the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.


The Saints AFTER the Great Commission is finished at the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20] and
The Saints AFTER the Last Saint was "sealed" before the Great Tribulation could begin [Rev 7:1-3]
The Saints AFTER Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit for his "Little Season" [Rev 20:7]


The Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" contain the Last "wheat" and the Last "tares"
who were "harvested" OUT of the Third Beast and INTO the Fourth Beast on earth.

The Last "wheat" have the "seal of God"... they are saved
The Last "tares" do not have the "seal"... they are not saved.





Not being "killed" represents not being "killed with Christ"... not being saved.
The Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) BEFORE the Fourth Kingdom / Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast
could arise [Rev 7:1-3]. There is no regeneration during the Fourth Beast or Satan's "Little Season".






5 months represent the first HALF of the Great Tribulation - the FIRST Revelation Beast (1st Woe, 5th Trumpet and 7th "head/king")

This "torment" did not continue during the SECOND Revelation Beast (2nd Woe, 6th Trumpet and 8th "head/king")





The "torment" was the Last Saints (some of the best theologians on earth) coming with the Gospel
of the Fourth Kingdom/Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast... which taught the Last Saints would "depart"
from their churches and follow the BEST theologian (who knew "dark sentences").

The "torment" was these church-goers could not REFUTE the Gospel of the Fourth Kingdom
but they could not follow the Gospel by "departing" from their churches.





No, as explained above, it means they sought salvation (to be "killed with Christ")
but salvation ENDED when the Last Saint was "sealed" (saved) just BEFORE the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast
could BEGIN [Rev 7:1-3]





Yes... the "locusts" LOOKED LIKE they were True Believers bringing the Gospel.
The language above is describing the True Believers.





That is a nice SECULARE interpretation of SPIRITUAL language.
LOL




Again a picture of Believers... the women, the church
preaching the Gospel as Lions





Again a picture of Believers in spiritual warfare
We are given SEVERAL pictures of the "locusts" being Believers...
because the "locusts" represent the Last Saints within the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins" of the Fourth Beast





What a secular interpretation of SPIRITUAL language.
LOL


/

Wow! Thanks for a very in-depth response! But I get the feeling you could do just as well, using your analysis techniques, spiritualizing the book of Acts. No offense meant, but the association's you've given could be applied to almost anything. And as such, how can we trust it to be the correct analysis of spiritual things, lol!

Just saying...

 

[5thKingdom]

Wow! Thanks for a very in-depth response! But I get the feeling you could do just as well, using your analysis techniques, spiritualizing the book of Acts.

The Book of Acts is not written in spiritual language...
Daniel's prophecies and Revelation prophecies were.

We must understand the CONTEXT of a passage before we can discern the meaning.
And we must ensure our doctrine harmonizes with ALL RELATED passages.
That is the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth until He Returns.

No offense meant, but the association's you've given could be applied to almost anything. And as such, how can we trust it to be the correct analysis of spiritual things, lol!

Just saying...

Why would I be offended by YOU not accepting harmony of Scripture?
Why would I be offended by YOU denying what the Bible teaches?


I have given you the events represented by the passages in view.
I have harmonized passages from several different Books to support that view.


You did not try to REFUTE anything I said... because you cannot.
WHY would you DENY what you cannot REFUTE?
Can't believe someone knows the Truth?


The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Beasts (the current issue) would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all the Saints (even Daniel did not understand - Dan 12:8) until the Last Saints "shall understand"
and a period NAMED the "Time-of-the-End".


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [of Daniel's Beasts] SHALL BE INCREASED. [to the Last Saints]


The Truth about Daniel's Beasts (and the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins") of the Great Tribulation and Revelation Beast
is not "sealed" forever... the Last Saints "shall understand" the Truth and they will PREACH the Truth
as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 1o:7-11]. In fact, the Last Saints preaching
that Truth is itself, one of the last "signs" before He Returns.


Make no mistake:
When the Lord Returns, the Last Saints are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
and they are NOT preaching the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and they are NOT preaching
the Gospel of the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Instead, when the Lord Returns the Last Saints are preaching the historical fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies
that JESUS PROMISED they "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:33] and they are preaching
what GOD PROMISED they "shall understand" about Daniel's prophecies.
You need to consider that reality... does it "fit" your Gospel?


Jim

 

[TribulationSigns]

Walking through the scriptures of what leads to what....

The first woe (the flesh tormenting locust) - the 5th trumpet plague - does not happen until after the other four trumpets.

Based on what Scripture justifies your position that the locust will be "flesh tormenting locusts". What are these locusts exactly? Physical locusts?

And the first woe - the 5th trumpet plague - does not begin until Satan is cast down to earth (from the second heaven - the cosmos) in the middle of the 7 year 70th week.

Rev 9:1-2
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

The authority to open the pit is given to the MESSENGER (star) of the Church, and this is symbolized by his being a star falling from his Heavenly place. That is a falling from his enlightenment into the apostasy of the world. The same falling is illustrated in Hebrews of false Christians of the Church who fall away.

Heb 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These are stars that have lost their light, stars that no longer have a place in the kingdom, in that they have fallen to the earth. There is only desolation left for them. Given the key illustrates it is for God's purpose that they bring this judgment of the pit.

The key to understanding the stars of Revelation is to allow the Bible to interpret itself. And using that sound hermeneutic, comparing scripture with scripture, we can come to the truth of this consistent imagery. And we see that from the beginning of the revealing/uncovering of the meaning of this cryptic book, God Himself OPENLY interpreted the enigma of what the stars in this book represented. And He defined them as representing the Messengers or [aggelos] of the Churches:

Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Clearly, God said the Candlesticks or Lampstands were symbolic of the Churches, and the Stars were symbolic of the Messengers of the Churches. The very same Messengers that He warned of their unfaithfulness, and what it would ultimately result in. These aren't idle warnings to the Messenger of the Church in Ephesus, it is for all the Messengers of the Church all throughout the ages.

Rev 2:5
(5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

That's what God said to the Star of the Church at Ephesus. Remember from where you are fallen and repent of your deeds, or He would remove that Messenger's Church out of its place. There is no ambiguity there. God is saying this star, interpreted as His Messenger of the Church at Ephesus, had fallen. And that he should repent of it and do the first works. The falling star represents God's Messenger.

And we see this truth revealed throughout the book of Revelation. Now I know the objection will be raised, "How are these messengers of the Churches if the stars that fall are in heaven?" The answer is that God uses the figure of heaven in the book of Revelation to symbolize the Kingdom of heaven. Not literal heaven or space. Just as He uses stars, which are also in heaven. We cannot forget, this is an obviously "cryptic" book using images and symbols, and items to represent other things. There is no contradiction of the stars being in heaven, and God Himself demonstrates this vividly in passages like Revelation 12.
Rev 12:1-2
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Here we see the Kingdom of God on earth being represented by a Woman residing in heaven and by her having stars of heaven for her crowning glory (1 Corinthians 15:41). The crowns again signify the Kingship or reign the congregation has. And of course, later we read these same stars were cast down from heaven to earth by the tail of her adversary, Satan. So clearly, not only are these not literal stars, they are those who reign with the Woman. The stars again represent the Messengers of the congregation, and the Dragon with the tail represents Satan, the heaven they are in represents the Kingdom they reign in, and the man-child that came from the Woman represents Christ.
Rev 12:4
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Through much travail, the congregation was to be delivered, and she was. Clearly, there is no contradiction of the Israel of God either being symbolically in Heaven, or of the stars in heaven being the messengers of the congregation that were cast down before she was delivered of the man-child.

But even though Christians know that Revelation is a book of symbolic images, they sometimes forget it when attempting to interpret it correctly, and try and mix and match with literal heaven with symbolic stars, moon, Woman, Dragon, etc. We have to be careful to be cognizant of that.

Ask yourself, Dougg, what does it mean that a Dragon's tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth? It means that these are fallen messengers, people of the Lord's Old Testament congregation Israel who were overcome by the enemy where they are no longer of the Kingdom with the Woman. That's the symbolism of stars falling away from heaven. It's the messengers losing the Kingdom, because they were never saved/sealed. They were stars destined to fall and lose their position in the Kingdom.

Therefore, the star in Revelation 9 is the fallen messenger of the Lord's NEW Testament congregation, the church. So near the end of the world, when apostasy shall be in the Churches and Satan is loosed and the stars will fall. Not literal stars, but PEOPLE of thekingdom of heaven. IN other words, those of the fallen Church or congregation. Another example:
Dan 8:9-12
(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
(12) And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

See? Doesn't it follow that if the stars are not literal stars, then the place they are said to be residing in (heaven) is symbolic as well? Remember heaven signifies the kingdom of God ON EARTH (ie. congregation) where the stars dwell. We are the stars of the New Testament congregation. Daniel is speaking of the little horn. Remember the horn in Scripture signifies power (not man) so God was talking about a short period of power that Satan is given to assault the Church for a season. They are being spoken of again as the stars, the host of heaven. The Prince or Ruler of the Host is Christ, He is the Prince of the congregation or church. This is the same cryptic language as found in Revelation of stars falling. Here it pictures Satan's reign as this little horn (small power) waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground and stamped upon them. Clearly, this speaks of the people of God's congregation!

And so comparing scripture with scripture, we should not be too surprised about the heaven and stars in Revelation being symbolic also. Even in the context of Revelation 9:1. A star here and there is the fallen Messenger of God's congregation who is responsible for loosening Satan but God uses him as a judgment upon this falling unfaithful congregation.

....and the 7year 70th week does not begin until right after the Gog/Magog event.

70th week of Daniel as 7 year period? Gog/Magog is Russia invading Israel? Not going to happen because the Scripture doesn't teach these.

......and the Gog/Magog event does not begin until after the little horn person emerges over the ten leaders of the fourth kingdom (Daniel 7) - the Roman Empire. In the end time, the EU.

Like I told you before again and again. The little horn is NOT A MAN. You need to check with Scripture to find out what is God's definition of the horn. It is POWER, not man.

 

[TribulationSigns]

When trumpets are sounded certain events follow, meaning during the time of that particular trumpet. The 3 woes prove it. For example, the 5th trumpet.

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

This should mean that this 5 months of being tormented, that period of time is over and in the past when the 6th trumpet sounds, which then means no one is still being tormented by locusts during the 6th trumpet nor the 7th trumpet, nor were they being tormented by locusts during the first 4 trumpets. Which means during the 7th trumpet satan isn't opening the pit during the 5th trumpet and letting the locusts out in order to torment for 5 months those that do not have the seal of God in their forehead. All of that is in the past. Revelation 9:12 makes that crystal clear.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Let's examine Revelation 9 a bit deeper:
Rev 9:1-3
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Smoke is the residue of fire, and I believe that the smoke is symbolic of the power of Satan, when he is loose from the pit. When someone smells or can see smoke, it is a sign that there is burning. Just as in the old expression, "where there's smoke, there's fire." It is a signal that something is burning. It has a distinct smell because it is the residue of fire, and its inherent distinguishing characteristics to humans are that it both "blinds and chokes." The perfect representation of the power of Satan to obstruct the truth and impede the breath or spirit of life. Which I believe is why we read that it darkened the sun and air, the light and the spirit, and the locusts came out of it to destroy the church (locusts being a plague on a field).

Per verse 2, at this time of the opening and loosing of Satan from the pit (his power having been bound there over 2000 years ago), the wicked are now allowed (of God) to go forth to the four quarters of the earth to deceive the nations and gather them together to battle against the God's congregations all over the Earth (not national Isreal). This smoke or his power is what chokes the spirit and blinds the eyes, symbolizing deception. I believe that God declared in Revelation 9 that the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit, it is an illustration of the light and spirit of the church being made darkened. We need to remember that in Scripture, the image of the sun represents light, and the air represents spirit. The smoke both blinds and chokes those in the church, because its sins have reached heaven, and God remembers her iniquities (Revelation 18:5). The smoke is an illustration of the power of Satan bringing the church to desolation, a judgment sent by God and a warning sign to the saints of her impending judgment. Because of the locusts from this smoke, the great city of God will be no more. Look at Revelation 18...

Rev 18:18-19
(18) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
(19) And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

See? This "smoke" of her burning is illustrating the church falling under the power of Satan as judgment of God BECAUSE of its iniquites. There will be no one be made (spiritually) rich anymore because of the locusts from the smoke... And the locusts are those men with the spirit of the antichrist coming with lying signs and wonders that deceive those within the congregation of God without the seal of God as a judgment!

Rev 9:3-6
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

See? The false prophets and christs today are the locusts! They prey on people of the congregation WITHOUT the seal of God in their forehead must be those who are not truly God's Elect and thus under this judgment. This did not take place until God first seal all of His people first, then he loosened Satan and his armies of false prophets and christs to hurt those WITHIN THE CONGREGATION who have not yet sealed of God. Why? Because they rejected the Truth and went after the doctrines of the false prophets and christs.

So "in those days", after the locusts have loosened from the bottomless pit, they will spiritually torture/torment those people who seek death (to be killed), but they never receive it. Not physical death, but death in Christ. Because the sealing is over before this, and they are not true sons of God. So they won't die in the Lord in Salvation. Selah! Salvation has ended for them, there is no more death in Christ. This is why the false prophets and christs spiritually hurt people as locusts with the power of scorpions!! Have you forgotten what Christ said about the scorpions and serpents earlier?

Luk 10:19
(19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
The power Christ gave His people was greater than the power of the scorpions and serpents. This is NOT talking about literal scorpions and snakes any more than Mark chapter 16 was, it is talking about the POWER of Satan and how it can't harm true believers. Likewise, these locusts from the smoke in the book of Revelation 9, given the POWER of the scorpion. Therefore, it is their power to HURT those of the church who are not sealed yet, who are NOT true believers. These locusts (false prophets and christs) with the power of Satan will bring their house (church) into desolation as we are seeing today, "IF" you have spiritual eyes to "see". This is what Revelation 9 is talking about. Not about literal Israel, military jets with missiles, or physical locusts, based on ridiculous interpretations of dispensationalism.

 

[Douggg]

Based on what Scripture justifies your position that the locust will be "flesh tormenting locusts". What are these locusts exactly? Physical locusts?

Based on Revelation 9:

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

If you would please go find a scorpion and let it sting you with its tail stinger, then you can tell us if it actually hurt.

I am thinking that the stings will be very painful, causing the body to go into a paralyzing coma, experiencing pain but unable to do anything about it, - but that is a guess. I really don't know.

I lean to thinking the scorpions being actual critters - but there are some other interpretations that John was actually describing attack helicopters. The sting in the tails maybe a chemical warfare spray. After about 5 months of damage, the aviation fuel runs out to account for the 5 months torment time. I copied and pasted this from a google search.

Like I told you before again and again. The little horn is NOT A MAN. You need to check with Scripture to find out what is God's definition of the horn. It is POWER, not man.

The little horn has the eyes of a man and a mouth. That man will have a tremendous amount of power.


Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Revelation 13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

That little horn will be a man. His number is 666, the number of a man.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.