Have a question about Hebrew Roots?

[Zugzwang]

Not a fan of all of what (some) "teachers" promote in Hebrew Roots, so I don't wear that monikor, but I do follow the Torah now & have for the past 3 years. (And no, I'm not denying Messiah while I do it)

Have any questions for someone not a neophyte?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The scriptures warn not to be led by every wind of doctrine and many Hebrew roots pastors prey on those already believers and grow their churches largely with recruiting people who are already Christian and not as Acts says the LORD added to the church daily those who should be saved. They presentations often open with overcoming any presuppositions one might have and then follow a maze of scriptures that if presented in a sequential order you will have been led to the conclusion that the new covenant replaces the covenant with national Israel. This is something I disagree with entirely and would contend greatly with. The promise to Abrahm and his seed for the land is a covenant that still stands and is an one sided covenant unlike the law which was a conditional covenant. This idea will warp your eschatology and create many necessary allegorical interpretations of scripture. If you would like to further discuss this area of Hebrew roots I am down although very busy and would respond with long answers not promptly given.

 

[tampasteve]

Perhaps check out Messianic Judaism instead of Hebrew Roots? I have looked into both extensively, I find Hebrew Roots to be less on solid ground than MJ, theologically (often). Perhaps pose your question in the MJ forum here too?

 

[Call me Nic]

Don't follow the Hebrew Roots movement - it's a lie straight out of hell. They would have you back under the bondage of the law instead of promoting the liberty that is in Christ - Jesus Christ is our law, he fulfilled it when he died. And when he died, the law died because he was the law. When he rose from the dead, he rose by the grace of God - when we believe on Christ, we are trusting in God's grace because we are dead to the law by the body of Christ. The law is merely given to us so that we know what sin is.

 

[Zugzwang]

"The scriptures warn not to be led by every wind of doctrine and many Hebrew roots pastors prey on those already believers..."

I'm not preying on anyone. I'm letting ppl know if they want real questions answered, instead of guess-work, I can help with that. (That being said, I don't like most HRM teachers, hence I don't wear that label.

"...Acts says the LORD added to the church daily those who should be saved."

Yeah,most ppl share their faith when they discover something new, different, or important. Nothing new here.

" They presentations often open with overcoming any presuppositions one might have..."

Yeah, which means they've heard the arguments before, so?

"... if presented in a sequential order you will have been led to the conclusion that the new covenant replaces the covenant with national Israel."

There's no difference between the "church" & Israel. Dispensationlism is wrong.

Acts 7:38 mentions the "church" in the Wilderness.

Jer. 31:31-33 mentions the Covenant through Judah & Israel.

There is no "other" Covenant.

"The promise to Abrahm and his seed for the land is a covenant that still stands and is an one sided covenant unlike the law which was a conditional covenant. "

I'm fairly certain there are some that would disagree with you.Like Esau, Reuben, Simon, etc.

And the "land" is the dowry for the "Bride", so no,not unlike the Law Covenant at all.

" This idea will warp your eschatology and create many necessary allegorical interpretations of scripture."

Well, that's why I'm here. If you never bother to study left of Matthew & dress Messiah up in denim jeans & a Tzitzit, its easy to get confused.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

"The scriptures warn not to be led by every wind of doctrine and many Hebrew roots pastors prey on those already believers..."

I'm not preying on anyone. I'm letting ppl know if they want real questions answered, instead of guess-work, I can help with that. (That being said, I don't like most HRM teachers, hence I don't wear that label.

"...Acts says the LORD added to the church daily those who should be saved."

Yeah,most ppl share their faith when they discover something new, different, or important. Nothing new here.

" They presentations often open with overcoming any presuppositions one might have..."

Yeah, which means they've heard the arguments before, so?

"... if presented in a sequential order you will have been led to the conclusion that the new covenant replaces the covenant with national Israel."

There's no difference between the "church" & Israel. Dispensationlism is wrong.

Acts 7:38 mentions the "church" in the Wilderness.

Jer. 31:31-33 mentions the Covenant through Judah & Israel.

There is no "other" Covenant.

"The promise to Abrahm and his seed for the land is a covenant that still stands and is an one sided covenant unlike the law which was a conditional covenant. "

I'm fairly certain there are some that would disagree with you.Like Esau, Reuben, Simon, etc.

And the "land" is the dowry for the "Bride", so no,not unlike the Law Covenant at all.

" This idea will warp your eschatology and create many necessary allegorical interpretations of scripture."

Well, that's why I'm here. If you never bother to study left of Matthew & dress Messiah up in denim jeans & a Tzitzit, its easy to get confused.

so if the church is Israel now then how does Hosea 3 make any sense,
1 Then the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[fn] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.”
2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.”
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

You see is the church being bought back or national israel? This is a latter day prophecy even David is brought back which Jer and Ezekiel prophecy the same thing. There are hundreds of specific prophesies with regard to Israel national Israel even making distinctions between Gentiles and Jews.

 

[Zugzwang]

Don't follow the Hebrew Roots movement - it's a lie straight out of hell. They would have you back under the bondage of the law instead of promoting the liberty that is in Christ - Jesus Christ is our law, he fulfilled it when he died. And when he died, the law died because he was the law. When he rose from the dead, he rose by the grace of God - when we believe on Christ, we are trusting in God's grace because we are dead to the law by the body of Christ. The law is merely given to us so that we know what sin is.

Can you define "sin" for the rest of us? Not color commentary, not your own personal opinion or doctrine, but the biblical definition?

Ask 10 different Christians, get 10 different answers, but the Bible is plain:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

"...the liberty that is in Christ."

So Jesus came to do away with the Law? Wouldn't that make Him "Lawless" then? (Anti-Christ)

In what Lexicon do you study from where fulfill=abolish? Because it doesn't.

And how can he "abolish" Himself? Rom. 10:5-8; Deut. 30:11-15

"And when he died, the law died because he was the law."

So, what are we judged on then on judgment day, if not the Law?

And how do you deal with future problem verses that haven't happened yet?

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Lemme guess, the "Jews", right?

Rom. 2:
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Zugzwang]

so if the church is Israel now then how does Hosea 3 make any sense,
1 Then the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[fn] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.”
2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.”
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

You see is the church being bought back or national israel? This is a latter day prophecy even David is brought back which Jer and Ezekiel prophecy the same thing. There are hundreds of specific prophesies with regard to Israel national Israel even making distinctions between Gentiles and Jews.

This is a latter day prophecy that is happening RIGHT NOW.

You make the mistake that there is a distinction between national Israel & the Church, there ISN'T, this is a falsehood. (Despite what pastors teach) In Jesus' day, Messiah was adressing TWO problems; the Pharisees, scribes, etc teaching & holding up "the traditions of men" (Oral Law, the unwritten Talmud) higher than the Laws of God (Torah) which is where most Christians get confused when reading Paul; because he juxtaposed often between the two terms; and the remarriage of "Israel", which He died for, whom is in fact, the bride.

I would challenge you & suggest you take a look at the similarities between Sinai & Acts 2 & ask yourself why are they so SIMILAR & what does it mean? (Acts 2 was Sinai 2.0)

 

[Call me Nic]

Can you define "sin" for the rest of us? Not color commentary, not your own personal opinion or doctrine, but the biblical definition?

Ask 10 different Christians, get 10 different answers, but the Bible is plain:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yeah, exactly. So if you don't sin, you follow the law.

What are we not justified by? The law. Romans 3:20 "Therefore BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Obviously if we don't sin we are doing the deeds of the law, but the Bible says that we aren't justified in his sight by doing them.

"...the liberty that is in Christ."

So Jesus came to do away with the Law? Wouldn't that make Him "Lawless" then? (Anti-Christ)

In what Lexicon do you study from where fulfill=abolish? Because it doesn't.

And how can he "abolish" Himself? Rom. 10:5-8; Deut. 30:11-15

"And when he died, the law died because he was the law."

Fulfill doesn't equal abolish. Read your Bible, please.

Jesus Christ was born under the law, and by his flesh, lived under the law and was subjected to it (Galatians 4:1-4), but because Jesus was the Word of God manifest in the flesh, he was the law, and lived a perfect life (Hebrews 4:15), and when he died on the cross, the law died with him (Romans 7:1-4). The law isn't abolished in that it still brings us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, Galatians 3:19-24), but not justification of life (Galatians 2:16-21, Romans 3:21-25).

When Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, it means that we no longer must live under the law, because we are freed from it by the resurrection of Christ and faith in him - we are justified by faith only, and not by works. Therefore, to try and follow the law for justification causes you to fall from grace, period (Galatians 5:4).

So, what are we judged on then on judgment day, if not the Law?

If you believe that you must do works to be justified of God, then you are judged on your works (Matthew 25:31-46), but if you believe that are judged on your belief in Christ and that you're saved by him alone, then that is what you're judged on (Matthew 7:21-23). If you seek to do works to be justified, you have already fallen short (Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23), if you seek to have faith and trust in Christ alone to be saved, you have already passed into life (John 5:24).

We're judged by whether or not we obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ (Romans 2:16), and we obey the gospel from the heart by believing (Romans 10:9-10, 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10), and knowing Christ, which is also by believing on him (Philippians 3:9-11).

Philippians 3:9 "AND BE FOUND IN HIM, NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH IS THROUGH THE FAITH IN CHRIST, THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH:"

Lemme guess, the "Jews", right?

No, that's just stupid.

Rom. 2:
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You obviously misunderstand this; Paul is literally saying, YOU HAVE TO PERFECTLY KEEP THE LAW TO BE JUSTIFIED, AND YOU DO NOT (Romans 3:23). Because once you offend in one point, you become guilty of all (James 2:10), and there is not one person without sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

You need Jesus, my friend. You obviously are trusting the works of your own righteousness according to the law, just like the Pharisees did. You're a modern day Pharisee. You're not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5), but you will be judged by them, and you will be found wanting, because you did not the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21), which is to obey the gospel by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 6:38-40).

 

[Zugzwang]

Yeah, exactly. So if you don't sin, you follow the law.

"Yeah, exactly. So if you don't sin, you follow the law."

HOW can you "not sin" if you don't KNOW the Law to begin with?

"What are we not justified by? The law. Romans 3:20 "Therefore BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Obviously if we don't sin we are doing the deeds of the law, but the Bible says that we aren't justified in his sight by doing them."

First, do you even read what you chapter you quote from? vs 1 & 2

3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The "oracles of God" is the Torah (Gen-Deut) given on Mt. Sinai & NOT only Sinai, less you think "clean & unclean" only came from here? (Noah might disagree with you here)

We know that "faith, without works is DEAD. (James 2:14-15)
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

Matt. 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

You're mixing justification here with sanctification. No one is "justified" here by Law, as you already stated, bc no one can keep it perfectly as Messiah did, but that does NOT mean we are to ignore it, nor follow it, which is sanctification. (It's apples & automobiles)

"Fulfill doesn't equal abolish. Read your Bible, please."

lmbo, nice fruit.

"Jesus Christ was born under the law, and by his flesh, lived under the law and was subjected to it (Galatians 4:1-4), but because Jesus was the Word of God manifest in the flesh, he was the law, and lived a perfect life (Hebrews 4:15)"

No problem with any of this, until..


"...the law died with him (Rom. 7:1-4)

vs by vs. 7:1 "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law)...

So who is this TO? The Jews, right? Because the Gentile sure don't know it.

"...how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This may come as a surprise to you, but Paul here is not talking about the WHOLE LAW here, but ONE SPECIFIC MITZVOT. (Commandment)

Deut. 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jesus divorced Israel. Jesus was/is the bridegroom. This SPECIFIC commandment is why Jesus had to die, otherwise He would be breaking this SPECIFIC commandment. This Law only applies as long as the first husband is alive.

And this is why Paul is speaking to the Jews specifically; they no longer have a "lock" on their relationship with Elohim.

Your arguments for "knowledge of sin" is irrelevant, if no one obeys them. This is the "gift" of Greek Hellenization; the idea that belief can be separated from thought & action; this is a lie that James proves. "Show me your faith, I'll show you my works."

Heck, even the demons "believed", are they saved? Certainly not.

Your interpretation of Gal. 3:21 is completely hosed. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

"verily righteousness should have been by the law."

That's THE very definition OF the Law!

Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

Your Gal. 2 "argument" is the Oral Law, the traditions of men Jesus so adamantly fought against. NOT the Torah. Just bc the Word mentions "Nomos" in the Greek, does NOT mean it's God's Law. Sometimes it the Laws of men. "Works of the Law without fail, almost always means the Oral Law of the Pharisees.

Rom. 3 "all have sinned" & vs 23 is interesting because he says "it is written". Well that means OT then doesn't it? So WHERE is it written?

Isaiah. 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

So YOU'RE saying that what Paul is saying, is that the solution to all of this, is for everyone to do what Isaiah was writing about in ch 64 NOW since Messiah showed up, when they were rebuked, chastised & scorched for it THEN?

That's what you say Paul is saying? Ok.

You do realize iniquity=Lawlessness, right? That according to Matt. 7:21-23 "I never knew you" is the response to that, right? That THAT was the problem Jesus had with the church in Rev. 2:
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

They were anti-nomian. (Lawless)

"When Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, it means that we no longer must live under the law..."

So the Law HAS been abolished. Thank you, nice to see you admit it. Therefore so shas sin then.

 

[Zugzwang]

Yeah, exactly. So if you don't sin, you follow the law.

cont...

So why do I need a Savior again then?
fulfill=Pleroo from the Greek.

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment


I don't see to be ignored, or "done away with" anywhere in that definition.

"If you believe that you must do works to be justified of God, then you are judged on your works "
Matt. 25 you quote. I mentioned Matt. 7:21-23, funny how the similar "depart from me, I never knew you" is also mentioned HERE in this chapter. Also, note that you DO go away, if you DON'T do certain things. 25:41-46 which, btw happens to be a recall of Is. 58 in relation to the commandments of the stranger or sojourner. (Kind of a big deal in the OT)

You mention Matt. 7 as "belief". No, you can't muddy this up in a "head knowledge" kind of way.

I know this is a common interpretation of this verse, as I myself also interpreted it this way, but it is wrong. Read earlier in the chapter. vs 13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Doesn't say "make it". Doesn't say "endure", it says FIND IT.

So if the Jews are teaching the Oral & (now) written Talmud of the Pharisees & if the church is saying "the Law is done away with", then no wonder no one can "find it" bc no one is PREACHING IT.

" If you seek to do works to be justified, you have already fallen short "

Already adressed.

"if you seek to have faith and trust in Christ alone to be saved, you have already passed into life"

Poppycock. If that's correct exegesis, then why do we have verses like " John 15:
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Sounds like a "once saved" person to me.

Phil. 2:12 says "WORK OUT your salvation with fear & trembling."

There's that 4 letter word again; work.

Matt. 24:13 "He that ENDURES until the end shall be saved."

Funny how these "problem passages" in Christianity go away when you realize you're actually supossed to DO SOMETHING now huh? Instead of some Greek "mental assertion" gymnastics.

As for your BOLDED Phil. 3:9 comment?

vs. 3 says 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And in ch. 2 Paul ALSO said:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You're forgetting here that THIS letter is "TO THE JEWS".

Which means, you're applying these verses to ppl who are NOT "Jews" by your very own application. aka, you're trying to make a point out of context, to a ppl that the letter was never written FOR, to begin with!

"You obviously misunderstand this; Paul is literally saying, YOU HAVE TO PERFECTLY KEEP THE LAW TO BE JUSTIFIED, AND YOU DO NOT"

I obviously don't. Again, already answered. (Is. 64)

"and there is not one person without sin."

I like Ecc. too. Here's my fave.

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

So simple even a cave man can understand it.

"
You need Jesus, my friend. You obviously are trusting the works of your own righteousness according to the law, just like the Pharisees did."

You think I'm denying Jesus by obeying Torah. Idiocy. You would make Jesus anti-christ by denying what HE HIMSELF LIVED. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

"You're a modern day Pharisee."

Now I'm a "judahizier"? Wow, that's interesting, because the Pharisees DIDN'T FOLLOW THE LAW AT ALL & KEPT THE TRADITIONS OF MEN INSTEAD! Here I am, quoting BOTH the OT & the NT, back & forth & yet I'm a "Judahizer".

lmbo. wow, talk about screwed up definitions & application!

Let's finish this with the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ, why not?

Christianity's definition of the "Gospel" is the "death, burial & resurrection of Jesus Christ, right?

Faith 101, yes?

Then take a stab at this then.

John 20:
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

So the Gospel the apostles preached, included the resurrection; even though they didn't know it yet.

Luke 24:
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

So the "Gospel" the apostles preached included something they DIDN'T BELIEVE IN, initially.

1 Cor. 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So they preached a Gospel. (Luke 9) that had the enemy known, they could have STOPPED.

Hmm. I wonder whose really blind here.

ETA: changed Luke 10 to Luke 9 at end.

 

[Call me Nic]

cont...

So why do I need a Savior again then?
fulfill=Pleroo from the Greek.

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment


I don't see to be ignored, or "done away with" anywhere in that definition.

"If you believe that you must do works to be justified of God, then you are judged on your works "
Matt. 25 you quote. I mentioned Matt. 7:21-23, funny how the similar "depart from me, I never knew you" is also mentioned HERE in this chapter. Also, note that you DO go away, if you DON'T do certain things. 25:41-46 which, btw happens to be a recall of Is. 58 in relation to the commandments of the stranger or sojourner. (Kind of a big deal in the OT)

You mention Matt. 7 as "belief". No, you can't muddy this up in a "head knowledge" kind of way.

I know this is a common interpretation of this verse, as I myself also interpreted it this way, but it is wrong. Read earlier in the chapter. vs 13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Doesn't say "make it". Doesn't say "endure", it says FIND IT.

So if the Jews are teaching the Oral & (now) written Talmud of the Pharisees & if the church is saying "the Law is done away with", then no wonder no one can "find it" bc no one is PREACHING IT.

" If you seek to do works to be justified, you have already fallen short "

Already adressed.

"if you seek to have faith and trust in Christ alone to be saved, you have already passed into life"

Poppycock. If that's correct exegesis, then why do we have verses like " John 15:
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Sounds like a "once saved" person to me.

Phil. 2:12 says "WORK OUT your salvation with fear & trembling."

There's that 4 letter word again; work.

Matt. 24:13 "He that ENDURES until the end shall be saved."

Funny how these "problem passages" in Christianity go away when you realize you're actually supossed to DO SOMETHING now huh? Instead of some Greek "mental assertion" gymnastics.

As for your BOLDED Phil. 3:9 comment?

vs. 3 says 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And in ch. 2 Paul ALSO said:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You're forgetting here that THIS letter is "TO THE JEWS".

Which means, you're applying these verses to ppl who are NOT "Jews" by your very own application. aka, you're trying to make a point out of context, to a ppl that the letter was never written FOR, to begin with!

"You obviously misunderstand this; Paul is literally saying, YOU HAVE TO PERFECTLY KEEP THE LAW TO BE JUSTIFIED, AND YOU DO NOT"

I obviously don't. Again, already answered. (Is. 64)

"and there is not one person without sin."

I like Ecc. too. Here's my fave.

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

So simple even a cave man can understand it.

"
You need Jesus, my friend. You obviously are trusting the works of your own righteousness according to the law, just like the Pharisees did."

You think I'm denying Jesus by obeying Torah. Idiocy. You would make Jesus anti-christ by denying what HE HIMSELF LIVED. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

"You're a modern day Pharisee."

Now I'm a "judahizier"? Wow, that's interesting, because the Pharisees DIDN'T FOLLOW THE LAW AT ALL & KEPT THE TRADITIONS OF MEN INSTEAD! Here I am, quoting BOTH the OT & the NT, back & forth & yet I'm a "Judahizer".

lmbo. wow, talk about screwed up definitions & application!

Let's finish this with the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ, why not?

Christianity's definition of the "Gospel" is the "death, burial & resurrection of Jesus Christ, right?

Faith 101, yes?

Then take a stab at this then.

John 20:
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

So the Gospel the apostles preached, included the resurrection; even though they didn't know it yet.

Luke 24:
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

So the "Gospel" the apostles preached included something they DIDN'T BELIEVE IN, initially.

1 Cor. 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So they preached a Gospel. (Luke 9) that had the enemy known, they could have STOPPED.

Hmm. I wonder whose really blind here.

ETA: changed Luke 10 to Luke 9 at end.

Okay, keep trusting your works then.

 

[Zugzwang]

Okay, keep trusting your works then.

THAT'S your response?

I spend 90 minutes addressing ALL your points & you respond with THAT?

Wow, thanks for wasting my time.

No game, you need to repent.

 

[Call me Nic]

THAT'S your response?

I spend 90 minutes addressing ALL your points & you respond with THAT?

Wow, thanks for wasting my time.

No game, you need to repent.

Repent of what? I already believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Zugzwang]

Repent of what? I already believe on the Lord the Jesus Christ.

Actually you DON'T.

Rom. 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Which Paul got from here:

Deut. 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

What "word"?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

vs 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The "Word" made flesh here, was the Law given at Sinai. (And before with Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc)

You guys don't "search the scriptures daily" as the Bereans did & were noble FOR because you never read left of Matthew. (The NT didn't EXIST at the time these verses were written, so "the scriptures" were the OT being mentioned)

Lastly you have Peter's warning.

2 Pet. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

All you ppl talking about a "last day revival" before the Tribulation starts don't even realize it's ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES & YOU'RE MISSING IT!

You're denying it because you don't agree with it; yet what do you think a "restoration" would look like to a "body" that is fractured with over 41 THOUSAND different denominations?!

It looks like THIS.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

"The scriptures warn not to be led by every wind of doctrine and many Hebrew roots pastors prey on those already believers..."

I'm not preying on anyone. I'm letting ppl know if they want real questions answered, instead of guess-work, I can help with that. (That being said, I don't like most HRM teachers, hence I don't wear that label.

"...Acts says the LORD added to the church daily those who should be saved."

Yeah,most ppl share their faith when they discover something new, different, or important. Nothing new here.

" They presentations often open with overcoming any presuppositions one might have..."

Yeah, which means they've heard the arguments before, so?

"... if presented in a sequential order you will have been led to the conclusion that the new covenant replaces the covenant with national Israel."

There's no difference between the "church" & Israel. Dispensationlism is wrong.

Acts 7:38 mentions the "church" in the Wilderness.

Jer. 31:31-33 mentions the Covenant through Judah & Israel.

There is no "other" Covenant.

"The promise to Abrahm and his seed for the land is a covenant that still stands and is an one sided covenant unlike the law which was a conditional covenant. "

I'm fairly certain there are some that would disagree with you.Like Esau, Reuben, Simon, etc.

And the "land" is the dowry for the "Bride", so no,not unlike the Law Covenant at all.

" This idea will warp your eschatology and create many necessary allegorical interpretations of scripture."

Well, that's why I'm here. If you never bother to study left of Matthew & dress Messiah up in denim jeans & a Tzitzit, its easy to get confused.

Yes there is another covenant. In jer 31 he cites in the very promise of the new covenant that it is not according to the covenant which God made with the fathers when he took them out of Egypt. The covenant with Abraham was signified as legal standing when the LORD passed through with fire consuming the sacrifices Abraham had split in two. The covenant when they were taken out of Egypt was established is recorded in Exodus 24 3 So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the LORD has said we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. 6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”

Jer 31 right after promising a new covenant says as long as the sun and moon keep their ordinances Israel will not cease to be a nation. So we have two covenants both have clauses regarding the land. God in Gen promised the land to Abrahams descendants forever and indeed He will keep it. God also has kept the conditional covenant with the law. and indeed God has scattered Israel and then now brought them back. Luke 1 speaking of Jesus says this by the Holy Spirit
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
If you look at dispensational eschatology we see Israel being saved at the 2nd coming and through the tribulation. We see in Zech 14 the very day Jesus comes with his saints. It is the day that they say the LORD is king over all the earth and it shows a continuation of events on earth after the LORD is king. The nations from that point on must come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. Rev says the beast and false prophet are thrown into the fire for 1000 years while Satan is bound that time and also that the nations who were once deceived will not be deceived for the same 1000 years. With a literal view God keeps both of these covenants as in Zech 14 we see that they will say the LORD is one on the same day that the LORD is king over all the earth. Look at the passage in Luke I quoted the very deliverance promised that Jesus would perform is accomplished and that is the beginning of them worshiping and serving the LORD without fear and in the new found holiness and righteousness that comes through coming to Jesus.

Lastly dispensational eschatology you can read what is said and take it literally and it reconciles itself in this timeline of the final 7 years with the midpoint being the abomination of desolation. Evidence that supports this is that the Temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices which are key as the Bible says in the middle of the week is when the sacrifices are stopped. Also in Revelation the final 42 months are when the beast is given control of the whole world and the mark of the beast is enforced. Hosea speaks of the return of the sacrifice being related to the return of the kingdom. Hosea 3 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. You also have Jer and Ezekiel promising that David will be raised up.

 

[Alithis]

"The scriptures warn not to be led by every wind of doctrine and many Hebrew roots pastors prey on those already believers..."

I'm not preying on anyone. I'm letting ppl know if they want real questions answered, instead of guess-work, I can help with that. (That being said, I don't like most HRM teachers, hence I don't wear that label.

"...Acts says the LORD added to the church daily those who should be saved."

Yeah,most ppl share their faith when they discover something new, different, or important. Nothing new here.

" They presentations often open with overcoming any presuppositions one might have..."

Yeah, which means they've heard the arguments before, so?

"... if presented in a sequential order you will have been led to the conclusion that the new covenant replaces the covenant with national Israel."

There's no difference between the "church" & Israel. Dispensationlism is wrong.

Acts 7:38 mentions the "church" in the Wilderness.

Jer. 31:31-33 mentions the Covenant through Judah & Israel.

There is no "other" Covenant.

"The promise to Abrahm and his seed for the land is a covenant that still stands and is an one sided covenant unlike the law which was a conditional covenant. "

I'm fairly certain there are some that would disagree with you.Like Esau, Reuben, Simon, etc.

And the "land" is the dowry for the "Bride", so no,not unlike the Law Covenant at all.

" This idea will warp your eschatology and create many necessary allegorical interpretations of scripture."

Well, that's why I'm here. If you never bother to study left of Matthew & dress Messiah up in denim jeans & a Tzitzit, its easy to get confused.

paint it how you wish,hebrew roots movenent is in all forms a cult.