Has this gone too far?

[Brooklyn Knight]

Anyone read the CNN opinion piece about the incident? I don't want to link the article but I'll give you guys the first paragraph:

There is no basic human right to barge into a church to make a political statement, jump around near the altar, and shout obscenities. But there is most certainly the right not to lose your liberty for doing so, even if the act is offensive.

Who would have known that there should be no consequences for a party entering private property, causing a scene, disturbing the peace, and not leaving when told to do so. Also, who knew that places openly allowed vulgar, explicit signs of expression, especially, again, on private property.

She might want to ponder really hard why protesters don't enter a Chick-fil-A and start pulling odd stunts like this band did.

I seriously, seriously would like to know what this lady's opinion would be if ever a hate group like the KKK entered a synagogue and started spouting their little ideology.

 

[buzuxi02]

What is this groups name in russian? Is it translated correctly? I guess most russian musicians lack talent just like their american counterparts, so they use shock value to get noticed.

Its also the reason why the western media is covering this . Believe me if there name was meant to bring to mind cats, it wouldnt be covered. What a`way to get the young people riled up by mentioning and printing the slang word for a female body part.

I wonder why this same media remains silent when people are imprisoned for years in numerous western countries for simply denying the holocaust, or even questioning how extant it was. Censorship is permitted if it promotes society's 'western values'. But if its against their interests they become free speech advocates.

 

[ArmyMatt]

only thing I heard recently about this is that the Church, and Putin's SF, forgave the band for what they did. hopefully that can lead to something good, but I doubt it.

 

[paul becke]

No. It was a soft sentence for what they did.

Moreover, if Putin were replaced by someone else, it would be a Western capitalist 'free for all' again, the country and the people being ripped off far, far worse.

Putin is a patriot, who has to deal with some harsh realities on the ground, bequeathed him by the likes of Yeltsin.

As for those women, they come across as blasphemous [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], despite their pleas of innocence concerning their intention. Even those masks smack of a rapist's disguise. It's not inconceivable that they are in the pay of some rich oligargarch.

 

[Blessedj01]

I do think 2 years is too long based on what they did, but who am I to say really when my own country's sentencing is so lenient? Our life sentences only amount to 16 years at the most. I think it's just reality that some countries haven't caught up with the rest of us in terms of handing down soft penalties for breaking the law.

I personally think those saying it was just a protest, or only a song against Putin are misrepresenting the truth. They damaged property inside the church (according to what I have read), disregarded the feelings of the people in attendance and working inside the church and used it's property as a place to "sing" a rather disgusting "song" (look up the lyrics, they are foul and offensive to the people whom were forced to endure it). Further, they refused the efforts and calls from people within the church to take their protest elsewhere.

On the basis of usurping other's rights for the sake of promoting their own agenda, I think they do deserve some punishment. There is no excuse for behaving like a thug inside a peaceful place of worship, or refusing to acknowledge the rights of other people not to be exposed to that kind of bullying. I would be quite annoyed if someone used my building to throw things around and swear loudly in disruption of normal events usually conducted inside there. It all comes down to the fact that they forced themselves on that church. Once trespassed from a property, you must leave. I have been convicted for trespassing on property for much less dramatic reasons - the law is the law.

They chose to enter the church and do what they did. No one forced them. They seem quite happy to accept the consequences...so be it. Also, the hypocrisy of this is evident in that if it happened inside a mosque, no-one would be coming to their defense. They would also be lucky to be alive.

 

[Dorothea]

Good points, Blessed.

 

[Rhamiel]

is that two years counting the 6 months they were in prison as time served?
or is it two years from the day they were sentenced?

 

[Dorothea]

is that two years counting the 6 months they were in prison as time served?
or is it two years from the day they were sentenced?

Yes, it counts their time in prison already from what I understand.

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, it counts their time in prison already from what I understand.

still way too much time for disturbing the peace
it was dumb and lewd and sacreligious
they should serve jail time and be fined
but two years
that just seems to be way over the top

 

[Dorothea]

still way too much time for disturbing the peace
it was dumb and lewd and sacreligious
they should serve jail time and be fined
but two years
that just seems to be way over the top

I thought it was rather lenient for Russia's court system and codes of law there.

 

[TheVarangian]

Anyone read the CNN opinion piece about the incident? I don't want to link the article but I'll give you guys the first paragraph:

Who would have known that there should be no consequences for a party entering private property, causing a scene, disturbing the peace, and not leaving when told to do so. Also, who knew that places openly allowed vulgar, explicit signs of expression, especially, again, on private property.

She might want to ponder really hard why protesters don't enter a Chick-fil-A and start pulling odd stunts like this band did.

I seriously, seriously would like to know what this lady's opinion would be if ever a hate group like the KKK entered a synagogue and started spouting their little ideology.

It's a double standard. If P*ssy Riot had barged into a mosque in London or NYC and shouted obscenities from the minbar they'd be looking at equally hard time for hate crimes. The fouth estate would be first inline to slam the cell shut.

The narrative that Putin wants to crush these dangerous desenters is laughable. Neither them nor their neo-bolshevik ideology constitute a serious threat to the chief dog catcher of Moscow let alone Putin.

The irony is lost on celebrities calling for Putin to set these bums free by overriding the Russian constitution, violating the seperation of powers, overturning true verdicts and in general acting like a dictator because Russia is a tyrannical state and all that.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

interesting letter to Sir Paul (ex.Beatles) which supports P?.Riot:
Good day, Mr. McCartney!

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you this letter as you have always been and will always be the great Paul McCartney to me! You are the person whose music has formed the world in which we live today and you certainly know that…

When you signed the letter in support of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot I did my best to imagine the words you had been told about that event. It seemed to be the typical liberal media coverage in the West: “The girls sang a song against Putin and now they are being judged for that.”

Mr. McCartney, if you asked the Russians what exactly these women were singing, in 99 cases out of 100 people could not quote their song. Only a few were able to listen to “the song” till its end. Meanwhile these women had sung songs about Putin before, however nobody had noticed that.

They managed to become famous after singing in the chapel. Putin was not the main concern though. He has been abused many times and by stronger means in Russian liberal media in comparison with what the women did in the chapel.

What the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot have done is a slap on the face and deep insult for Orthodox believers both in Russia and abroad.


The place and plot show it as a premature well-planed anti-orthodox action. So they came to the most important cathedral of Russia with their own security hired specially for them by someone and together with an expensive pool of journalists.

During their “concert” at the holy place these women were dancing kicking their legs high with cynical body movement and crying affronts out. This “performance” was carefully allocated in UTube later.

What have these “girls” done? Why did they face legal action? They had called the leader of Russian Orthodox Church “a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]”. They had declared that believers crawl to bow, that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of the slaves; they had demanded the Mother of the God to become a feminist, demonstrating their disapproval of Her choice which She made during the course of Her life.

Sir Paul, you could hardly admire if someone had danced on the grave of your wife and demanded her to become a lesbian after her death and convinced antagonist of marriage even if other people had presented this as a form of struggle for the rights of sexual minorities, women or criticism of the British crown, of which you are an honored knight.

Being an atheist you still can imagine via your vivid imagination of a musician and talented personality the fact that some people prepared in advance, hired journalists and came to insult your child or your mother. And such publicity was enlarged by a range of photo and camera men.

The pain of believers cannot be expressed in words when they saw what the people whom you are protecting had done. They try to repeat sacrilege towards shrines and belief which our church already got through after the revolution of 1917. Why haven’t they chosen a worldly place for that? Why the believers feelings were targeted? Didn’t you asked yourself such questions?


A long way brought the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot to this action. Their previous activity was colored in porno style which civil words cannot describe and I am not going to do this. But the image of these women in Russian society has been formed by the impression they have been trying to achieve so hard. They uploaded videos of their orgies on the Internet. So they cannot represent the Symbol of The Truth as some media depict them. And it is as impartially as objective groundlessness of them as musicians and personalities. They do not have even mediated relation to what culture is.

Sir Paul, I want to believe that you were misled by some false information as well as you still may be within the frames of Cold War stereotypes. I want you to know that according to the Internet polls the major part (80%) of Russian population supported the punishment for the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot. Your point cannot change anything in the situation. Moreover, many Russian bloggers state their disappointment by your shallow and populist decision to take the side of the participants of this untalented and sacrilegious “performance”.


I asked myself, whose side John Lennon would have taken? He was a rebel himself famous for his anti- bourgeois activities. But I think he would have been strong enough to oppose the bourgeois press that due to momentary political goals magnifies the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot case turning it almost in the second “Gulag”.


Really Russian intelligentsia laughs at articles concerning “the poor [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot”. By the by, what can you say about the name of the group? Personally I am very sorry that you were led by those people who could so cynically manipulate you - Sir Paul, a distinguished holder of the Order of The British Empire and the leader of “the Liverpool four”.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's a double standard. If P*ssy Riot had barged into a mosque in London or NYC and shouted obscenities from the minbar they'd be looking at equally hard time for hate crimes. The fouth estate would be first inline to slam the cell shut.

yep, the hypocrisy is pretty obvious.

 

[Dorothea]

interesting letter to Sir Paul (ex.Beatles) which supports P?.Riot:
Good day, Mr. McCartney!

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you this letter as you have always been and will always be the great Paul McCartney to me! You are the person whose music has formed the world in which we live today and you certainly know that…

When you signed the letter in support of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot I did my best to imagine the words you had been told about that event. It seemed to be the typical liberal media coverage in the West: “The girls sang a song against Putin and now they are being judged for that.”

Mr. McCartney, if you asked the Russians what exactly these women were singing, in 99 cases out of 100 people could not quote their song. Only a few were able to listen to “the song” till its end. Meanwhile these women had sung songs about Putin before, however nobody had noticed that.

They managed to become famous after singing in the chapel. Putin was not the main concern though. He has been abused many times and by stronger means in Russian liberal media in comparison with what the women did in the chapel.

What the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot have done is a slap on the face and deep insult for Orthodox believers both in Russia and abroad.


The place and plot show it as a premature well-planed anti-orthodox action. So they came to the most important cathedral of Russia with their own security hired specially for them by someone and together with an expensive pool of journalists.

During their “concert” at the holy place these women were dancing kicking their legs high with cynical body movement and crying affronts out. This “performance” was carefully allocated in UTube later.

What have these “girls” done? Why did they face legal action? They had called the leader of Russian Orthodox Church “a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]”. They had declared that believers crawl to bow, that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of the slaves; they had demanded the Mother of the God to become a feminist, demonstrating their disapproval of Her choice which She made during the course of Her life.

Sir Paul, you could hardly admire if someone had danced on the grave of your wife and demanded her to become a lesbian after her death and convinced antagonist of marriage even if other people had presented this as a form of struggle for the rights of sexual minorities, women or criticism of the British crown, of which you are an honored knight.

Being an atheist you still can imagine via your vivid imagination of a musician and talented personality the fact that some people prepared in advance, hired journalists and came to insult your child or your mother. And such publicity was enlarged by a range of photo and camera men.

The pain of believers cannot be expressed in words when they saw what the people whom you are protecting had done. They try to repeat sacrilege towards shrines and belief which our church already got through after the revolution of 1917. Why haven’t they chosen a worldly place for that? Why the believers feelings were targeted? Didn’t you asked yourself such questions?


A long way brought the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot to this action. Their previous activity was colored in porno style which civil words cannot describe and I am not going to do this. But the image of these women in Russian society has been formed by the impression they have been trying to achieve so hard. They uploaded videos of their orgies on the Internet. So they cannot represent the Symbol of The Truth as some media depict them. And it is as impartially as objective groundlessness of them as musicians and personalities. They do not have even mediated relation to what culture is.

Sir Paul, I want to believe that you were misled by some false information as well as you still may be within the frames of Cold War stereotypes. I want you to know that according to the Internet polls the major part (80%) of Russian population supported the punishment for the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot. Your point cannot change anything in the situation. Moreover, many Russian bloggers state their disappointment by your shallow and populist decision to take the side of the participants of this untalented and sacrilegious “performance”.


I asked myself, whose side John Lennon would have taken? He was a rebel himself famous for his anti- bourgeois activities. But I think he would have been strong enough to oppose the bourgeois press that due to momentary political goals magnifies the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot case turning it almost in the second “Gulag”.


Really Russian intelligentsia laughs at articles concerning “the poor [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot”. By the by, what can you say about the name of the group? Personally I am very sorry that you were led by those people who could so cynically manipulate you - Sir Paul, a distinguished holder of the Order of The British Empire and the leader of “the Liverpool four”.

Thanks for sharing this. This was a good read.

 

[HoofingAround]

I thought it was rather lenient for Russia's court system and codes of law there.

I was going to say that whilst it looks harsh to outsiders they were pretty lucky. I acknowledge they had a point to make, but I feel they went the sensationalist route and that is one which rarely does anything other than create a publicity storm which focuses on all the wrong things. There are better ways to put their opinions across, the fact they did so in such a disrespectful manner honestly disgusts me.

 

[Dorothea]

I was going to say that whilst it looks harsh to outsiders they were pretty lucky. I acknowledge they had a point to make, but I feel they went the sensationalist route and that is one which rarely does anything other than create a publicity storm which focuses on all the wrong things. There are better ways to put their opinions across, the fact they did so in such a disrespectful manner honestly disgusts me.

Yes, the things they did were very disturbing.

Welcome to TAW.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The double standard with Islam and Christianity is always amazing. They can have crucifixes dunked in urine, the Theotokos covered in feces, and this is called "art" in America. But draw a cartoon of Muhammad or criticize Islam and a fatwa is issued and your life is toast....

It's a double standard. If P*ssy Riot had barged into a mosque in London or NYC and shouted obscenities from the minbar they'd be looking at equally hard time for hate crimes. The fouth estate would be first inline to slam the cell shut.

The narrative that Putin wants to crush these dangerous desenters is laughable. Neither them nor their neo-bolshevik ideology constitute a serious threat to the chief dog catcher of Moscow let alone Putin.

The irony is lost on celebrities calling for Putin to set these bums free by overriding the Russian constitution, violating the seperation of powers, overturning true verdicts and in general acting like a dictator because Russia is a tyrannical state and all that.

 

[Anastasis777]

Hello from your own TAW reporter on things Russian from the inside!

First of all, most media reports are WILDLY slanted in favor of one view - that the young women did nothing wrong, just "expressed themselves" and that the government and the Church (often confused as as the same thing) are big, bad institutions that are against freedom. Everything you read is going to slant that way. We immediately get when the Church is attacked, but we might not get other aspects of the thing.

That said, of course the Russian government handled everthing wrongly. The near-universal consensus is that they should immediately have been given several months of community service - I advocated in an Orthodox hospice, orphanage or soup kitchen, myself, to see exactly what one of the two things they were attacking really does.

Now the issue is cannon fodder to make the Church look bad - and I'm afraid there IS bad on our part. The general spokesman - Vsevolod Chaplin - has been extremely disappointing - a spokesman is supposed to make our position clear, and he makes it fuzzy. The general populace NEEDS to understand what exactly forgiveness is, and how effective it is and who benefits if the forgiven party doesn't repent. Yet Chaplin's statements, even in context, do not make any of this clear. He says exactly the things that they can use to make us sound like holier-than-thou neanderthals, and I can't believe he is consistently saying all of that on his own authority - which has rather dismal implications. In plain language, it looks as if the Patriarchate, through those few statements and otherwise by silence on the part of everybody in the upper hierarchy, that the Patriarch/ate is supporting... what the government is doing - in spite of the universal opinion of everyone on the ground.

So we lose. We had a fantastic chance to show the world what the Church teaches and close this case in a slam-dunk, and didn't.

It also leaves me feeling that the hierarchy of the Church here in Russia has really let us down.

I've been feeling sick over the media circus in the West that this has caused, and I've been quite angry with the way that this narrative has emerged and developed, but your post I think encapsulates exactly how I feel about the Church's negative role in all of this. Lord, have mercy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The double standard with Islam and Christianity is always amazing. They can have crucifixes dunked in urine, the Theotokos covered in feces, and this is called "art" in America. But draw a cartoon of Muhammad or criticize Islam and a fatwa is issued and your life is toast....

I think that shows the strength of our faith though. no other serious religion has been outright mocked like Christianity, and yet Christianity is still here (and that is not even counting the real persecutions).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yes, and we forgive those who blaspheme our religion and try to love them while the Muslims and others issue fatwas, terrorize, or make life a living Hades for anyone who disagrees with them!

I think that shows the strength of our faith though. no other serious religion has been outright mocked like Christianity, and yet Christianity is still here (and that is not even counting the real persecutions).