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Has this gone too far?

Dorothea

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Found this in my google Orthodox Christian alert email today:

The Russian Church's say on the punk band's jailing:

Russian church claims [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot have 'sinned against God' | Gigwise
 
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Protoevangel

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ask Charlie Daniels, he knows

Naw, I trust Gurney. He used to be Anglican.
confused0052.gif





To my Anglican friends... It was just a joke!
 
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rusmeister

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Hello from your own TAW reporter on things Russian from the inside! :)

First of all, most media reports are WILDLY slanted in favor of one view - that the young women did nothing wrong, just "expressed themselves" and that the government and the Church (often confused as as the same thing) are big, bad institutions that are against freedom. Everything you read is going to slant that way. We immediately get when the Church is attacked, but we might not get other aspects of the thing.

That said, of course the Russian government handled everthing wrongly. The near-universal consensus is that they should immediately have been given several months of community service - I advocated in an Orthodox hospice, orphanage or soup kitchen, myself, to see exactly what one of the two things they were attacking really does.

Now the issue is cannon fodder to make the Church look bad - and I'm afraid there IS bad on our part. The general spokesman - Vsevolod Chaplin - has been extremely disappointing - a spokesman is supposed to make our position clear, and he makes it fuzzy. The general populace NEEDS to understand what exactly forgiveness is, and how effective it is and who benefits if the forgiven party doesn't repent. Yet Chaplin's statements, even in context, do not make any of this clear. He says exactly the things that they can use to make us sound like holier-than-thou neanderthals, and I can't believe he is consistently saying all of that on his own authority - which has rather dismal implications. In plain language, it looks as if the Patriarchate, through those few statements and otherwise by silence on the part of everybody in the upper hierarchy, that the Patriarch/ate is supporting... what the government is doing - in spite of the universal opinion of everyone on the ground.

So we lose. We had a fantastic chance to show the world what the Church teaches and close this case in a slam-dunk, and didn't.

It also leaves me feeling that the hierarchy of the Church here in Russia has really let us down.
 
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I guess Patriarch Kirill really blasted them as blasphemers and believed Satan had a good belly laugh in one of the Lord's holy shrines. The government has laws against hoolinganism and blasphemous idiocy like this, it's not the United States where people would've probably not even taken note due to the fact that there are no sacred cows here anymore anyway, and I guess the Russians can choose to make an example of them.

I think Rus is right that they can go too far and send a bad message. If the Church cracks down too hard, they risk making Orthodoxy in Russia and the government look like an Iranian theocracy that brutally crushes "protests" and expression, which isn't really the case. They can come off looking like mullahs only fueling the fiery "see, we told ya so's!" of the atheists in Russia and Europe. They should, as Rus said, just have to do community service helping the downtrodden and learn to keep their mouth shut in Church. If they want to badmouth Putin, they should do it somewhere else and not invoke religious undertones that border on blasphemy to the faithful.

Russia has to walk a thin line. One nice thing about Russia is that it still has a lot of tough crack-down no-nonsense when it comes to the gay agenda and loud protestors who want radical social change. That's a plus about Russia and I'm sure Rus loves that. I know I would. It'd be nice to have the Church and state shut up gay protestors and arrest the lesbians making out at Chick-Fil-A, but we can't. But Russia can't go too far or it comes off as a human rights-abusing theocracy. tough spot, but I wish them well.
 
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gracefullamb

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They are a punk band. This hasn't been a punishment for them it has been a reward, they're infamous. Being infamous for a punk band dictates people are going to talk about them and sing their crumby music for decades. I don't think Russia realizes how many record deals they are going to have after all is said and done and how many devoted fans they have given these women. You really want to hurt a performer force them into obscurity, don't give them free press!
 
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They're like a Siberian form of Green Day! LOL

They are a punk band. This hasn't been a punishment for them it has been a reward, they're infamous. Being infamous for a punk band dictates people are going to talk about them and sing their crumby music for decades. I don't think Russia realizes how many record deals they are going to have after all is said and done and how many devoted fans they have given these women. You really want to hurt a performer force them into obscurity, don't give them free press!
 
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Dorothea

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Hello from your own TAW reporter on things Russian from the inside! :)

First of all, most media reports are WILDLY slanted in favor of one view - that the young women did nothing wrong, just "expressed themselves" and that the government and the Church (often confused as as the same thing) are big, bad institutions that are against freedom. Everything you read is going to slant that way. We immediately get when the Church is attacked, but we might not get other aspects of the thing.

That said, of course the Russian government handled everthing wrongly. The near-universal consensus is that they should immediately have been given several months of community service - I advocated in an Orthodox hospice, orphanage or soup kitchen, myself, to see exactly what one of the two things they were attacking really does.

Now the issue is cannon fodder to make the Church look bad - and I'm afraid there IS bad on our part. The general spokesman - Vsevolod Chaplin - has been extremely disappointing - a spokesman is supposed to make our position clear, and he makes it fuzzy. The general populace NEEDS to understand what exactly forgiveness is, and how effective it is and who benefits if the forgiven party doesn't repent. Yet Chaplin's statements, even in context, do not make any of this clear. He says exactly the things that they can use to make us sound like holier-than-thou neanderthals, and I can't believe he is consistently saying all of that on his own authority - which has rather dismal implications. In plain language, it looks as if the Patriarchate, through those few statements and otherwise by silence on the part of everybody in the upper hierarchy, that the Patriarch/ate is supporting... what the government is doing - in spite of the universal opinion of everyone on the ground.

So we lose. We had a fantastic chance to show the world what the Church teaches and close this case in a slam-dunk, and didn't.

It also leaves me feeling that the hierarchy of the Church here in Russia has really let us down.
Thank you for weighing in on this, Rus. I did find the spokesman's language a bit odd and not really on. I thought it was a bad translation or something, but I see it wasn't. What a shame. :(
 
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Maybe the translator was Ukrainian or something? :p

Thank you for weighing in on this, Rus. I did find the spokesman's language a bit odd and not really on. I thought it was a bad translation or something, but I see it wasn't. What a shame. :(
 
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Maybe they can import some Rush from Canada....great hoser progressive rock band I hate punk.

The poor Russians they have no idea what sort of torment truly awaits their ears! They have only a heard thimble full of how bad screeching will be.
 
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fschmidt

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The general populace NEEDS to understand what exactly forgiveness is, and how effective it is and who benefits if the forgiven party doesn't repent.

Please consider me part of the general population, as a non-Christian, and explain this to me. Why should anyone be forgiven who doesn't repent? Did these women repent? And empty apology is not repentance. I would like to read their apology to see if it at least sounds sincere.
 
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Dorothea

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Please consider me part of the general population, as a non-Christian, and explain this to me. Why should anyone be forgiven who doesn't repent? Did these women repent? And empty apology is not repentance. I would like to read their apology to see if it at least sounds sincere.
Because that's what Christ did. Forgave those who crucified Him, those who hated Him. We are to follow His example.
 
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fschmidt

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Because that's what Christ did. Forgave those who crucified Him, those who hated Him. We are to follow His example.
So then you would forgive a murderer and let him go free? No punishment for any crime?

I want to express my deepest appreciation of the Russian Orthodox Church for standing up to immorality. This is an example of why, even though I am not Christian, I strongly support Orthodox Christianity and I attend Greek Orthodox church every Sunday. Orthodox Christianity is one of the few places in the world where one can still find people willing to take a stand against immorality, to stop liberal oppression and the desire of liberals to extend their vile ways to all corners of the earth.
 
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Dorothea

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So then you would forgive a murderer and let him go free? No punishment for any crime?
When did I say that? No, that's what jails are for.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So then you would forgive a murderer and let him go free? No punishment for any crime?

you forgive the murderer or rapist or whatever and keep the jail cell locked. Christ, although He opened the doors of Paradise to the wise thief, did not heal him or pull him down from the cross. in fact, one of the things that showed his faith in who he was crucified next to, was that he knew he was justly punished for what he had done.
 
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fschmidt

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you forgive the murderer or rapist or whatever and keep the jail cell locked. Christ, although He opened the doors of Paradise to the wise thief, did not heal him or pull him down from the cross. in fact, one of the things that showed his faith in who he was crucified next to, was that he knew he was justly punished for what he had done.

I believe you are referring to the end of Luke. Note that there were two criminals hanging next to Jesus and Jesus only opened the doors of Paradise to the criminal who recognized his own sin and confessed to it, not to the other unrepentant criminal. And this backs my point of view, not the standard modern Christian point of view.

In any case the whole idea of forgiving a person but keeping him in jail makes no sense to me. It seems like hypocrisy, something Jesus repeatedly condemned. If you forgive someone, then your actions should show this. God explained the whole idea of repentance and forgiveness very clearly in Ezekiel 33:7-20.
 
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Dorothea

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I believe you are referring to the end of Luke. Note that there were two criminals hanging next to Jesus and Jesus only opened the doors of Paradise to the criminal who recognized his own sin and confessed to it, not to the other unrepentant criminal. And this backs my point of view, not the standard modern Christian point of view.

In any case the whole idea of forgiving a person but keeping him in jail makes no sense to me. It seems like hypocrisy, something Jesus repeatedly condemned. If you forgive someone, then your actions should show this. God explained the whole idea of repentance and forgiveness very clearly in Ezekiel 33:7-20.
It's called safety. Common sense that you don't let a person out into the public again for the safety of the public. It's a Christian tenet - forgiveness and repentance.
 
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Protoevangel

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I believe you are referring to the end of Luke. Note that there were two criminals hanging next to Jesus and Jesus only opened the doors of Paradise to the criminal who recognized his own sin and confessed to it, not to the other unrepentant criminal. And this backs my point of view, not the standard modern Christian point of view.

In any case the whole idea of forgiving a person but keeping him in jail makes no sense to me. It seems like hypocrisy, something Jesus repeatedly condemned. If you forgive someone, then your actions should show this. God explained the whole idea of repentance and forgiveness very clearly in Ezekiel 33:7-20.
We forgive them, the State still has their job to carry out.

This is where I believe Rus was going with his post. The Russian Hierarchy should extend the hand of forgiveness, peace, and love. The courts still have their job to accomplish.

Christ said, "To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either." (Luke 6)

And Paul tells us, "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." (Romans 13)

You try to make these mutually exclusive, but they are not.
 
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