Harry Potter

[kaisersoce25]

Cannon Foddr! It is all spelled out, False Gods!, it's just how do we want to interpret it, to modern day!

 

[D'Ann]

You misunderstood what I said. I never said you watch R rated movies.

You used an argument that suggested that because HP brings out some so-called good attributes, that it is good, and thus harmless.

I used the R rated argument to try to open your eyes to what your argument is really suggesting. In other words, anything can be justified according to your logic as long as it produces something good. Thus the end justifies the means. Therefore, if a movie, even though it is rated R, emphasises some aspect that is good, then it must be good itself. This, of course, is wrong.

In fact, the Bible espouses the view that the means must justify themselves on moral issues, in which case HP doesn't, because for the means to justify themselves as such, they can only do so to the glory of God. Does HP glorify God? Obviously not.

My challenge to you however, since you seem to feel that the end does justify the means, is to identify the real end of HP. I tried to draw your attention to post #26 wherein I have done this already, but you don't seem to be interested in what I have to say.



This comment coupled with your misunderstanding of what I had said to you suggests to me that you really aren't interested in anything that I have to say unless it agrees with what you believe.

Regarding post #68 -

Wooba,

I think the devil can utilize just about any means to mess with us in our heart and mind. If we believe that the ouiji board can have this kind of power, that in itself enables the devil to mess with us and validate that fear.

I don't believe that anyone is trying to minimize your experience with the ouiji board and I know many others who have had a similar experience with the ouiji boards and candles... red/black... etc. My mom practiced witchcraft during my early childhood, but after something bad happen, she decided to not mess around with the dark elements. Needless to say, my mom is now very much a Christian too.

When it is all said and done, the bottom line is that we all love and cherish and serve God and in our ministry, we glorify God and God will use us accordingly.

As far as HP goes, I think it is what people make it to be. My kids know their faith and they know right from wrong and they know the difference between good and evil. I believe in freewill and I also believe that we all can benefit from reading many different kinds of books including HP, but it all has to be tailored with knowing the truth and understanding right from wrong.

God bless,

Debbie

 

[Motherof3]

Good vs. Evil, what is good! In Witchcraft there is no difference between Good and Evil, all Witchcraft gets it's power from Satan. When Good witchcraft wins over Evil witchcraft who won, witchcraft!

The Sorting Hat, is a Divination tool. Which would have had a familiar spirit.

I suppose every Christian here who is against HP are dead set against The Wizard of Oz as well.

 

[MBElijah]

It's just a fantasy story,
Why are real people and places listed then!
Town and cities that we all know to be real are talked about.
When children hear a story with some truth and some lie's they begin to lose sight of the differences.

Nicolas Flamel is talked about a great deal in book one, he was a real person, he was an Alchemists. Believed to have produced the "Elixir of Life" which gives immortality. (without any talk of Christ).
Nicolas was a master of esoteric knowledge and into Occultism.
Nicolas Flamel is also mentioned in the Well-known "Witchcraft, Magic & Alchemy,(Grillot de Givery, Dover publications, 1971.

Alchemy seeks to make a man God- one who can create and transform by his will, secret knowledge, and magical access to forces, by Marcia Montenegro.

Other real people are talked also.

Hogwarts is a school of Divination. What are the classes that are being taught.

Demons-how can we as a people in God not believe in Demons. Jesus in Luke 10:19 I give you authority to basicly overcome demons and the devil.
Mark 16:17-18 we shall cast out demons.
Plus many more are found in the holy bible.

J.K. Rowlings has said each book will get Darker and Darker.
She also has said she doesn't like C.S. Lewis' style he has to much theology and talk about God in his books.

I would not be so quick to tell people that magic from witchs will have no effect on them!
Out of the tongue is the power of life and of death. We speak curses on ourselves and on each other daily, if we don't control our tongues and mind and body.

Eph. 6:12 means what it says, we are in a spiritual war. Sadly most of the christian world hasn't shown up for the fight.

 

[Motherof3]

Familiar: A spirit who takes an animal form and becomes the companion of a practicing witch.

Necromancy: The magic art of communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.

The only "familiar" in the HP stories is the caretaker's cat whom he calls "Mrs. Norris" & he is portrayed as an evil character.

From what I remember, no one communicates w/the dead in order to predict the future.

 

[Melethiel]

Alchemy seeks to make a man God- one who can create and transform by his will, secret knowledge, and magical access to forces

al·che·my
n.

1. A medieval chemical philosophy having as its asserted aims the transmutation of base metals into gold, the discovery of the panacea, and the preparation of the elixir of longevity.

Hogwarts is a school of Divination. What are the classes that are being taught.

Wrong. Divination is only one of the classes, and it is portrayed in a negative light.

 

[Motherof3]

It's just a fantasy story,
Why are real people and places listed then!
Town and cities that we all know to be real are talked about.
When children hear a story with some truth and some lie's they begin to lose sight of the differences.

Nicolas Flamel is talked about a great deal in book one, he was a real person, he was an Alchemists. Believed to have produced the "Elixir of Life" which gives immortality. (without any talk of Christ).
Nicolas was a master of esoteric knowledge and into Occultism.
Nicolas Flamel is also mentioned in the Well-known "Witchcraft, Magic & Alchemy,(Grillot de Givery, Dover publications, 1971.

Alchemy seeks to make a man God- one who can create and transform by his will, secret knowledge, and magical access to forces, by Marcia Montenegro.

Other real people are talked also.

Hogwarts is a school of Divination. What are the classes that are being taught.

Demons-how can we as a people in God not believe in Demons. Jesus in Luke 10:19 I give you authority to basicly overcome demons and the devil.
Mark 16:17-18 we shall cast out demons.
Plus many more are found in the holy bible.

J.K. Rowlings has said each book will get Darker and Darker.
She also has said she doesn't like C.S. Lewis' style he has to much theology and talk about God in his books.

I would not be so quick to tell people that magic from witchs will have no effect on them!
Out of the tongue is the power of life and of death. We speak curses on ourselves and on each other daily, if we don't control our tongues and mind and body.

Eph. 6:12 means what it says, we are in a spiritual war. Sadly most of the christian world hasn't shown up for the fight.

1) Every good fictional story has some basis of fact of history, time, places, etc. It is called the setting.

2) Nicolas Flamel also agrees at the end of the 1st story to destroy the Elixir so no one will have the ability to be immortal.

3) Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the only class that something is actually taught is how to survive the "dark arts" for when someone is trying to kill them.

4) Could you cite the source for this quote about CS Lewis? And, the books must get darker to show how Lord Voldemort is trying to take over the world. The world will become very dark & they must survive in it & Harry must use his efforts to try to stop this evil from abounding. Just as in the Bible, the world will become darker & darker until God finally triumphs in the end.

 

[Eruliel]

It's just a fantasy story,
Why are real people and places listed then!
Town and cities that we all know to be real are talked about.
When children hear a story with some truth and some lie's they begin to lose sight of the differences.

That's illogical though:
C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia have melding of truth and fantasy all OVER the place. His allegorical way of writing means that he puts different faces on real people and makes it very easy to confuse them. A classic example of this is Aslan. He's obviously Jesus, and a little child will not differentiate between the two.
Sounds like their little minds have blurred the fine line between fantasy and reality. So according to your logic we shouldn't read any allegorical work of fiction to our children.

J.K. Rowlings has said each book will get Darker and Darker.

As does our own story:
Adam and Eve sinned (dark), God destroyed the world with a flood eventually (really dark), he told Abraham to leave his home and go wandering about (dark), he destroyed Egypt for enslaving his people (dark), he eventually put Israel back in captivity (really dark), he sent his son (the light in the dark) and then allowed him to die alone, beaten, bruised, and exposed as a common criminal (really really really dark), he rose again (light), he left for heaven (dark).
Dark things happen in our lives and the lives of those around us, and as the day approaches things are only going to get worse for Christians. Things are gonna get really really dark before the dawn comes.

My point is every story has it's dark moments, they have to because the foundational story, the story God created has very dark places, and we humans write only what we know.

She also has said she doesn't like C.S. Lewis' style he has to much theology and talk about God in his books.

Did you know that J.R.R. Tolkien a staunch Catholic and firm believer in Jesus and one of Lewis' contemporaries despised the Chronicles? I mean he didn't just not like them, he thought the allegory was childish and too obvious. Tolkien hated allegory.
There are also quite a few articles on the internet where Rowling is stated as being a member of the Church of Scotland:
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-post-weeks.htm

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-time-grossman.htm

I would not be so quick to tell people that magic from witchs will have no effect on them!
Out of the tongue is the power of life and of death. We speak curses on ourselves and on each other daily, if we don't control our tongues and mind and body.
.

My family has had run ins with spells and witches, it was kind of unavoidable where we lived. My mom had a roommate who managed to possess the house with her shrine, and they gave my brother nightterrors, they tried as hard as they could to get to my mom and brother, but Jesus protected them. They finally called in a blessing and the demons left quite dramatically I hear.

Another time my mom found a skinned cat on a hill east of our house and in direct line with our house. She thinks it was a sort of eviction spell, something to try and get us to leave the valley. We lived there happily for 10 years.

I don't deny that involvement with idols and magick will open you up for all sorts of spiritual crud, but I'm talking about real magick where spells are complicated, (you actually have to sit down and recite at the very least a short limerick or poem by candlelight) sometimes those are written in runes or gaelic, maybe latin, more often than not these spells are centered around the worship of a god and goddess from whom the witch recieves his or her power.
The closest Harry gets to any of that malarky is the candlelight and Latin...and the candlelight is only because Hogwarts doesn't have electricity. The rest of his so called "sorcery" is harmless.
Slainte!
Eruliel

 

[kiwimac]

Once again the books are simply fiction. Had J K Rowling based her books on future technology no one would have complained but since she used the <gasp> dread word Magic everyone thinks she's in league with the legions of the damned.

Please!

Kiwimac

 

[DarkCloud]

You start by stating that it does NOT imply demons. By saying this, it would seem that you know what it implies. However, you follow this up by saying 'it could mean'. So you dont know or you do?
I'm not convinced that "spiritual wickedness in high places" refers to demons, but I'm not willing to say that for sure. What makes you so sure? Proof?

No I don't claim I know with certainty what the passage means. But I doubt your interpretation as the absolute true viewpoint. It might be, but it might not be (I merely gave alternative explanations). Obviously if demons are invisible to me I can't really prove whether they exist or not, but I am more inclined to say that they do not exist on earth.

To give an analogy. There might be magical purple unicorns living in the center of the sun. Can I prove it? No. Can I disprove it? No. Do you believe it?

You ignored my question once again. Put Harry Potter aside for the moment, and answer my question.

This time I will provide scripture.

Okay fine, I'll give you this. According to the Bible witchcraft is a sin. However, those passages did not define what exactly witchcraft is, nor did it say certain items (e.g., ouiji boards, candy bars, harry potter) possess magic powers that aid in/ lead to witchcraft. Moreover, it never clearly says that reading fiction or myths is to be considered the same as witchcraft. For some reason when I think of witchcraft I think of human sacrifice type things, not reading a children's harry potter book.

That is a logical fallacy, appeal to authority. Just because some scientists believe in evolution, that doesnt make it is correct.

First, appeal to authority is not a fallacy. An appeal in inappropriate authority would be. In any case, I wasn't saying evolution was true merely because some christians also accept it. I was merely pointing out that evolution and christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Chore for us, but for God? I imagine God delighted in creating every species, including ourselves. Have you ever tried to invent something, or create art or a piece of music? Its quite the experience and very fun.

I'm actually a programmer and prefer to come up with algorithms to do tedious work for me. Again, you are taking my statement too seriously. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just giving possible alternative explanations. It is a *possibility* that God used physics and evolution to make his creation. It is possible that he pulled the universe out of a magic hat. No one knows for certain.

What's brute force about God creating everything liek Genesis tells us?

It's bruteforce to create everything manually by hand when you can design an algorithm to do much of the work for you.

I already addressed this contention with the OPer.
I know what a logical fallacy is. You obviously dont.

[/sarcasm]
Wow, I think that is the strongest argument I've ever seen. You must be a logician![/sarcasm] You've already demonstrated in a previous post that you didn't even know what the science of logic delt with.

There is usually no agreement between a literalist and a makeitupasIgo believer.

(in your opinion.)

That's not a point, that's a question.

Yeah, think about it a little deeper and I think you'll see the point I am making by asking that question.

Well, this seems to be a way that some Satanists use.

I don't know any satanists.

Try it and come back to me with your results.

I dont think that there is any specific physical property that makes a ouiji board dangerous. Its the act of trying to conjure of spirits that si dangerous. That act is prohibited by God many times throughout the bible.
You should try reading what the bible has to say.

I tried it, nothing happened. I also read harry potter and it didn't lead to demons or witchcraft either. I've also listened to marylin manson, and no demons came.
Okay, so ouiji boards, harry potter, dungeons and dragons are all okay, provided you don't seriously try to conjure spirits or worship the devil? I'm okay with that.

Who constitutes the 'many'?
Who's to say schizophrenia isnt a demon possession? Can you make a point either way?

Again, we cannot prove whether it is or it is not. Just like we can't prove or disprove that magic unicorns live in the middle of the sun. So it could be demons or it could not be too. I prefer to take a rational explanation, and you prefer to take a fantasy explanation with ghosts and goblins.

The bible tells us demons were cast out. When Jesus met a man with many demons, the demons knew who Jesus was and asked Him to send them off into a group of pigs. According to your views, illnesses can talk. Is that it?
Demons have existed and continue to exist in our world. If you wont take God's word for it, I'm pretty sure you're unwilling to listen to anyone's view.

The Bible also condones rape, murder and slavery in the old testement. Does that make it okay?

You only read the bible literally where it suits your own preconceived beliefs.

Judging from the other posts of other members, most people agree that harry potter does not lead to witchcraft. So you are on the extreme end of the spectrum in your beliefs.

 

[Loukuss]

Obviously if demons are invisible to me I can't really prove whether they exist or not, but I am more inclined to say that they do not exist on earth.

They arent visible to anyone. The bible tells us Jesus dealt with them and thats good enough for me.

To give an analogy. There might be magical purple unicorns living in the center of the sun. Can I prove it? No. Can I disprove it? No.

Bad analogy. Demons are talked about in the bible. Purple unicorns are not.

Do you believe it?

I have no reason to. I have a reason to believe there are demons.

Okay fine, I'll give you this.

How kind of you.

According to the Bible witchcraft is a sin. However, those passages did not define what exactly witchcraft is

I do not believe the definition of witchcraft had changed since the bible was written. If it has, I'm sure you can show me proof.

nor did it say certain items (e.g., ouiji boards, candy bars, harry potter) possess magic powers that aid in/ lead to witchcraft. Moreover, it never clearly says that reading fiction or myths is to be considered the same as witchcraft. For some reason when I think of witchcraft I think of human sacrifice type things, not reading a children's harry potter book.

You didnt read what I wrote. I said, 'putting Harry Potter aside'. Good reading.

First, appeal to authority is not a fallacy.

Yes it is.


An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

1. Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
2. Person A makes claim C about subject S.
3. Therefore, C is true.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Sure you want to stick with what you said? You can retract now.

In any case, I wasn't saying evolution was true merely because some christians also accept it. I was merely pointing out that evolution and christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Your opinion.

It is a *possibility* that God used physics and evolution to make his creation. It is possible that he pulled the universe out of a magic hat. No one knows for certain.

The possibility does exist, but goes against what the bible teaches.

It's bruteforce to create everything manually by hand when you can design an algorithm to do much of the work for you.

Does God have hands?
Does God work within time? No. God stands outside of time and space, so He's got all the time in the world to create and create and create...
Trying to understand the way God creates by comparing it to the way we as humans create is faulty to say the very least. The two methods are, I imagine, very different.

You've already demonstrated in a previous post that you didn't even know what the science of logic delt with.

I did? Really? I most have misseed that part of our discussion. Can you show me where this was? I believe you are making this up.

Yeah, think about it a little deeper and I think you'll see the point I am making by asking that question.

There's no need to read deeper. The question was already answered. Read again.

Again, we cannot prove whether it is or it is not. Just like we can't prove or disprove that magic unicorns live in the middle of the sun.

Another poor analogy. Try, try again.

So it could be demons or it could not be too. I prefer to take a rational explanation, and you prefer to take a fantasy explanation with ghosts and goblins.

Didnt answer my question again...
Your good at avoiding them, eh?
Who constitutes the "many"?

A rational explanation? What does that entail?
I prefer fantasy explanations? Because I listen to what the bible says? You are starting to sound more and more like an atheist.
No one was talking about ghosts and goblins. Now you're using red herrings to argue? Good greif.

The Bible also condones rape, murder and slavery in the old testement. Does that make it okay?

I would NOT go as far as it say the bible condoned these things. I've heard this argument from an atheist more than a few times. You sure you're not just one of them in disguise?
You didnt respond to what I wrote. You cleverly diverted the topic away. Why is that? Can you not answer the question?

Judging from the other posts of other members, most people agree that harry potter does not lead to witchcraft. So you are on the extreme end of the spectrum in your beliefs.

Logical fallacy #3. Appeal to popularity.

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.

I could care less that most people dont see it that way. I dont base truth on what's most popular. Did popularity make the crusades right?
Your logic is truely lacking to say the very least.

Keep those great rebuttals coming, DarkCloud...

 

[Mind_Over_Matter]

They (demons) arent visible to anyone. The bible tells us Jesus dealt with them and thats good enough for me.

Will you please provide a reference in the bible where Jesus dealt with demons. I tend to believe Jesus dealing with demons is Jesus was tempted by the devil just as we are, Jesus had to put up with the demons (A persistently tormenting force, or passion: the demon of drug addiction, see dictionary.com definition #2) of the world.

Without reading a specific passage in the world I&#8217;m inclined to say that the only demon&#8217;s Jesus faced were of the above mentioned definition or the devil himself tempting us in the same way he tempts everyone every day.

Bad analogy. Demons are talked about in the bible. Purple unicorns are not.

The analogy makes perfect sense to me. If some one can&#8217;t disprove a unicorn lives in the middle of the sun then how can they disprove that demons exist. The purpose of this statement is point out that asking some one to disprove something can often be unreasonable. Assuming demons exist in the bible in the sense that you mean, that doesn&#8217;t help disprove something. It helps prove something that you want disproven. But since the purpose of the analogy is to show the difficulty in disproving something rather then proving something, I don&#8217;t see how it is a bad analogy.

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
1. Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
2. Person A makes claim C about subject S.
3. Therefore, C is true.

Although this is true, it is improperly being used. If you goto fallacyfiles.org with the appropriate context on the subject you will find the following quote

&#8220;We must often rely upon expert opinion when drawing conclusions about technical matters where we lack the time or expertise to form an informed opinion. For instance, those of us who are not physicians usually rely upon those who are when making medical decisions, and we are not wrong to do so.&#8221;

After this quote there are the cases where appealing to authority comes to place. The case of scientists and evolution fits this case. This does not mean that evolution is true. It means that some scientists support evolution. Most scientists would not support evolution if they didn&#8217;t have reason to. These reasons include humans have tailbones, characteristics between mammals, birds, reptiles, etc. If I&#8217;m not mistaken there are scientists who don&#8217;t believe in evolution as well. At any rate evolution is not the topic of this thread, although it is interesting.

Evolution was introduced in an attempt to point out why the bible shouldn&#8217;t be taken literally in some cases. In the case of evolution it sounds like you disagree with it in the first place so let me try a few other examples.
Why doesn&#8217;t the bible have any references to dinosaurs? There is evidence on Earth that they existed a very long time ago, for what times periods, and how long ago. Yet the bible makes the claim that man was made on the 7th day? Evidence shows otherwise.

The value of pi is approximately 3.14. The bible implies that the value of pi is equal to 3. (Sorry I don&#8217;t have a reference, but I know its in there, I&#8217;ve seen 2 references point this out, and I cross checked it with the bible.)

The possibility does exist, but goes against what the bible teaches.

Here are some quotes in the old testament.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Ephesians 6:5 NLT
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
I have many more quotes. The point I&#8217;m trying to get across is that if you accept everything in the bible literally, then you are accepting things that I&#8217;m sure you would find as an atrocity. Basically a lot of the old testament contradicts the new testament. Most references to demons are in the old testament.

Does God have hands?
Does God work within time? No. God stands outside of time and space, so He's got all the time in the world to create and create and create...
Trying to understand the way God creates by comparing it to the way we as humans create is faulty to say the very least. The two methods are, I imagine, very different.

Even though God has unlimited resources, he still likely had a method when designing something. In the case of humans, this is shown through DNA. If a man and women have a daughter, then it is proven that the Daughter has some genes from the man and some from the women. That doesn&#8217;t sound like God determining what color eyes, hair that person would have.

Logical fallacy #3. Appeal to popularity.
1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.
I could care less that most people dont see it that way. I dont base truth on what's most popular. Did popularity make the crusades right?
Your logic is truely lacking to say the very least.

Actually, once again you misused logic. If you read Darkclouds comment he said most people agree with him therefore your view is extreme. His statement was correct as the definition of an extreme view is some one who believes something at the far end of a spectrum. (Basically if you plot your view verse everyone elses view your view would have less views around it).
In order for him to commit a logical fallacy he would have had to make the claim that because more people agree with him, you are wrong. This clearly isn&#8217;t what is being said. He basically just stated a fact that has nothing to do with the thread anyway.
With that being said, just because your view is extreme doesn&#8217;t mean your wrong. Take the earth is flat example. A long time ago it was extreme to believe the Earth was round. The people with the extreme view turned out to be correct.

At any rate, so far I am not convinced that Harry Potter is a bad thing to read.

 

[DarkCloud]

I have no reason to. I have a reason to believe there are demons.

And your reason is based on the Bible, which I already said I don't take all parts literally, so why do you keep arguing this when we disagree with basic axioms? Demons could be used metephorically.

I do not believe the definition of witchcraft had changed since the bible was written. If it has, I'm sure you can show me proof.

Your reply doesn't make sense. I never said the definition changed. Good reading

You didnt read what I wrote. I said, 'putting Harry Potter aside'. Good reading.

I also mentioned ouiji boards and candy bars in addition to HP. Good reading

Yes it is.


An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

1. Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
2. Person A makes claim C about subject S.
3. Therefore, C is true.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...authority.html

Sure you want to stick with what you said? You can retract now.

No, from Introduction to Logic by Copi: "In attempting to make up one's mind about some difficult or complicated question, it is entirely reasonable to be guided by the judgement of an acknowledged expert. When we argue that a given conclusion is correct on the ground that an expert authority has come to that judgement, we commit no fallacy....The fallacy ad verecundiam arises when the appeal is made to parties having no legitamate claim to authority in the matter at hand."

I appealed to scientists which are known experts in their field of biology and anthropology; hence, not a fallacy.

Sure you want to stick with what you said? You can retract now.

Does God have hands?
Does God work within time? No.

Prove it!

I did? Really? I most have misseed that part of our discussion. Can you show me where this was? I believe you are making this up.

From post 100 you wrote:

Apparently logic escapes you quite easily.
It makes perfect sense that the devil would train his sights on children. A child is very impressionable, and everything they hear, see and read (if they can do so) affects their upbringing and their life later down the road. Why wouldnt the devil attack them at thsi stage in their life? Its not knowing the devil's secret plan. Its just using simple logic.
Your arrogance is quite unbecoming and not appreciated.

I replied to this in 142.

The science of logic has to do with truth functional statements and tautologies. What "makes perfect sense" is not an argument for a number of reasons. First, it is in the eye of beholder. The theory of evolution is obvious to me, but not to many christians[...]Second, what's obvious is not always true; for example, at a point in time it may have seemed obvious that the earth was flat[...]The point is, saying something is true simply on the basis that it seems obvious to you, is fallacious.

So it seems to me that you don't know what logic is says you think that "if something makes sense to me, then it must be true." But I provided counter examples to show this is not always the case.

Good reading

There's no need to read deeper. The question was already answered. Read again.

The question was about ouiji boards possessing inherent magical properties that make them a gateway to demons over other objects. For the record, do you believe ouiji boards possessing inherent magical properties that make them a gateway to demons over other objects?

Another poor analogy. Try, try again.

Care to give reasoning?

Didnt answer my question again...
Your good at avoiding them, eh?
Who constitutes the "many"?

I wrote:

It turns out that what many thought were demons in old times, were probably really just mental illnesses like schizophrenia.
The "many" refers to people in the old times that believed when someone was acting crazy they were posessed.

A rational explanation? What does that entail?
I prefer fantasy explanations? Because I listen to what the bible says? You are starting to sound more and more like an atheist.
No one was talking about ghosts and goblins. Now you're using red herrings to argue? Good greif.

You don't know what a rational explanation is? See a dictionary. Because you insist on believing (literally) in demons [and presumably dragons since the bible speaks of them] it seems you prefer fantasy explanations as opposed to logical scentific explanations.

I resent you accusing me of being an athiest just because I don't subscribe to your literal interpretation of the Bible. I gave a link to an article that even the catholic church has relaxed their standards. Let us not forget the story of Galileo.

I'm not using red herrings; you know exactly what my phrase "ghosts and goblins" refers to in the given context. It refers to your belief in magic board games, demons possessing people and roaming the earth, and whatever other fantasy you believe in.

I would NOT go as far as it say the bible condoned these things. I've heard this argument from an atheist more than a few times. You sure you're not just one of them in disguise?
You didnt respond to what I wrote. You cleverly diverted the topic away. Why is that? Can you not answer the question?

If you disrespect my faith one more time, I will report you to the moderator.

Some of your questions are nonsense, e.g., "According to your views, illnesses can talk. Is that it?" What does that mean? Yes people with schizophrenia can talk. People with mental illnesses can talk. Is that the question you were referring to?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Logical fallacy #3. Appeal to popularity.

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.

I could care less that most people dont see it that way. I dont base truth on what's most popular. Did popularity make the crusades right?
Your logic is truely lacking to say the very least.

Would be if I was trying to use it to prove something. Because this is a christian site, all I was saying is that there exist many christians which are both 1) christian and 2) think harry potter is not anti-christian.

 

[Jipsah]

I do not believe the definition of witchcraft had changed since the bible was written. If it has, I'm sure you can show me proof.

I'd be keen to see where that definition, or at least the definition that obtains in the Bible, has anything to do with an ability to do magic. But that's certainly part of the modern definition, isn't it?

 

[Gwenyfur]

It's just a fantasy story,
Why are real people and places listed then!
Town and cities that we all know to be real are talked about.
When children hear a story with some truth and some lie's they begin to lose sight of the differences.

Nicolas Flamel is talked about a great deal in book one, he was a real person, he was an Alchemists. Believed to have produced the "Elixir of Life" which gives immortality. (without any talk of Christ).
Nicolas was a master of esoteric knowledge and into Occultism.
Nicolas Flamel is also mentioned in the Well-known "Witchcraft, Magic & Alchemy,(Grillot de Givery, Dover publications, 1971.

Alchemy seeks to make a man God- one who can create and transform by his will, secret knowledge, and magical access to forces, by Marcia Montenegro.

Other real people are talked also.

Hogwarts is a school of Divination. What are the classes that are being taught.

Demons-how can we as a people in God not believe in Demons. Jesus in Luke 10:19 I give you authority to basicly overcome demons and the devil.
Mark 16:17-18 we shall cast out demons.
Plus many more are found in the holy bible.

J.K. Rowlings has said each book will get Darker and Darker.
She also has said she doesn't like C.S. Lewis' style he has to much theology and talk about God in his books.

I would not be so quick to tell people that magic from witchs will have no effect on them!
Out of the tongue is the power of life and of death. We speak curses on ourselves and on each other daily, if we don't control our tongues and mind and body.

Eph. 6:12 means what it says, we are in a spiritual war. Sadly most of the christian world hasn't shown up for the fight.

Yes...and that's why every child who's read a Spiderman comic believes he's real...cause New York is real...so Spidey must be also

Nicholas Flamel is also a pretty household name...but more for his failures than his successes...pity really...his herbal mixtures did wind up saving many lives for the healers of his age...just as many of those same healers were burned as being witches...when in reality they weren't...they just took the time to learn how to use what was available to save lives by preventing infections.

Alchemy was a precursor to modern science...of course the church would wish to "demonize" it...after all the dark ages were the years that the Bible was taken from the hands of the people and kept in the Church's interpretation alone...

As for the spiritual war of principalities and powers...do you really thing Christians are doing the fighting? Nope...think again...it's G-d through His people who does the fighting...

 

[Motherof3]

I'd be keen to see where that definition, or at least the definition that obtains in the Bible, has anything to do with an ability to do magic. But that's certainly part of the modern definition, isn't it?

Some things I found on dictionary.com:

divination
of false prophets (Deut. 18:10, 14; Micah 3:6, 7, 11), of necromancers (1 Sam.
28:8), of the Philistine priests and diviners (1 Sam. 6:2), of Balaam (Josh.
13:22). Three kinds of divination are mentioned in Ezek. 21:21, by arrows,
consulting with images (the teraphim), and by examining the entrails of animals
sacrificed. The practice of this art seems to have been encouraged in ancient
Egypt. Diviners also abounded among the aborigines of Canaan and the
Philistines (Isa. 2:6; 1 Sam. 28). At a later period multitudes of magicians
poured from Chaldea and Arabia into the land of Israel, and pursued their
occupations (Isa. 8:19; 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chr. 33:6). This superstition widely
spread, and in the time of the apostles there were "vagabond Jews, exorcists"
(Acts 19:13), and men like Simon Magus (Acts 8:9), Bar-jesus (13:6, 8), and
other jugglers and impostors (19:19; 2 Tim. 3:13). Every species and degree of
this superstition was strictly forbidden by the law of Moses (Ex. 22:18; Lev.
19:26, 31; 20:27; Deut. 18:10, 11). But beyond these various forms of
superstition, there are instances of divination on record in the Scriptures by
which God was pleased to make known his will. (1.) There was divination by lot,
by which, when resorted to in matters of moment, and with solemnity, God
intimated his will (Josh. 7:13). The land of Canaan was divided by lot (Num.
26:55, 56); Achan's guilt was detected (Josh. 7:16-19), Saul was elected king
(1 Sam. 10:20, 21), and Matthias chosen to the apostleship, by the solem lot
(Acts 1:26). It was thus also that the scape-goat was determined (Lev.
16:8-10).

(2.) There was divination by dreams (Gen. 20:6; Deut. 13:1, 3; Judg.
7:13, 15; Matt. 1:20; 2:12, 13, 19, 22). This is illustrated in the history of
Joseph (Gen. 41:25-32) and of Daniel (2:27; 4:19-28).

(3.) By divine
appointment there was also divination by the Urim and Thummim (Num. 27:21), and
by the ephod.

(4.) God was pleased sometimes to vouch-safe direct vocal
communications to men (Deut. 34:10; Ex. 3:4; 4:3; Deut. 4:14, 15; 1 Kings
19:12). He also communed with men from above the mercy-seat (Ex. 25:22), and at
the door of the tabernacle (Ex. 29:42, 43).

(5.) Through his prophets God
revealed himself, and gave intimations of his will (2 Kings 13:17; Jer. 51:63,
64).

witchcraft
(1 Sam. 15:23; 2 Kings 9:22; 2 Chr. 33:6; Micah 5:12; Nahum 3:4; Gal. 5:20). In
the popular sense of the word no mention is made either of witches or of
witchcraft in Scripture. The "witch of En-dor" (1 Sam. 28) was a necromancer,
i.e., one who feigned to hold converse with the dead. The damsel with "a spirit
of divination" (Acts 16:16) was possessed by an evil spirit, or, as the words
are literally rendered, "having a spirit, a pithon." The reference is to the
heathen god Apollo, who was regarded as the god of prophecy.

necromancer
(Deut. 15:11), i.e., "one who interrogates the dead," as the word literally
means, with the view of discovering the secrets of futurity (comp. 1 Sam.
28:7).

That's just a few. I don't believe any of these match HP. They do to his counterpart though.

 

[Axion]

What's wrong with Harry Potter - and similar things like Charmed - is very simple.

They promote witchcraft and spellcasting to kids as good things - which they are not. They are condemned by God in scripture.

 

[Mind_Over_Matter]

What's wrong with Harry Potter - and similar things like Charmed - is very simple.

They promote witchcraft and spellcasting to kids as good things - which they are not. They are condemned by God in scripture.

When you make a claim, such as this. You need to support it. This has arleady been argued and we already pointed out why we disagree with this.

 

[tulc]

What's wrong with Harry Potter - and similar things like Charmed - is very simple.

They promote witchcraft and spellcasting to kids as good things - which they are not. They are condemned by God in scripture.

Uhmm must not be as simple as you make it sound seeing as this is the 179th post of maybe the 2000th "Harry Potter" thread.
tulc(just thought I'd point that out)

 

[Tenebrae]

Hello Christians,
Today I'm going to display to you fine folks, the evilness of Harry Potter. The book is based off of hate. You should not allow your kids to read it as it leads to the occult. The encourages voodoo magic. Your kids may begin by reading Harry Potter but they will continue into deads such as playing dungeans and dragons and magic the gathering. Pretty soon they will attempt to learn voodoo magic from the devil himself.

If you wish your kids don't become dark magicians, then you should encourage them to read the Lord of the Rings by J.K.Tolkien. This book is completely acceptable because J.K.Tolkien was Christian.

Don't allow your children to be spawns of the devil. Boycott Harry Potter.

Rubbish, voddo is a completely seperate branch from the magik that Harry practices, it orginated in africa and is still practiced by many africans, it is not standardly practiced by white poeple


HP is not an accurate representation of witchcraft, and while it glamourises something that shouldnt be glamourised to forbid children to read is to make the forbidden attractive.

I know many christian parents who read HP with their kids, and no they havent gone over to the darkside