LDS Handshake Test (D&C 129)

Jane_Doe

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I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion.
How many people are alive now? How many people have been alive throughout time? Now how many are mentioned specifically in scripture?
Well, I only have an interest in Mormonism from a comparative perspective, and of course because I have personally known Mormons. There isn't really anything to compare here (we don't have handshake tests or anything like that), but thank you for the offer. My point was more to say that there are other ways to answer this question that would be more informative for all involved (not just the OP, but all the non-Mormons here), so it surprises me that Mormons would not take that route, but instead say that it is offensive to ask about certain things.
If anyone honestly wants to learn, there are resources for learning, particularly starting with the foundation (because that's the basic learning of any subject).
 
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dzheremi

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How many people are alive now? How many people have been alive throughout time? Now how many are mentioned specifically in scripture?

Yes, but you originally wrote "scripture or otherwise". There's a whole lot of "otherwise" out there that isn't scripture, but contains many, many such accounts. My copy of the Ethiopian synaxarium (which isn't only these kinds of stories, but does contain a lot of them in the lives of particular saints, as appropriate) runs 773 pages, for instance. I don't have a copy of the Coptic synaxarium, but I imagine it is of comparable length. And that's just one type of compendium of writings concerning saints' lives and doings; there are also various Vitas (e.g., of St. Anthony by his disciple St. Athanasius, of St. Shenouda of Atripe by his disciple St. Besa, of St. John the Little by Zacharias of Sakha, etc.), martyrologies, and other genres like the sayings of the Desert Fathers and so on.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Yes, but you originally wrote "scripture or otherwise". There's a whole lot of "otherwise" out there that isn't scripture, but contains many, many such accounts. My copy of the Ethiopian synaxarium (which isn't only these kinds of stories, but does contain a lot of them in the lives of particular saints, as appropriate) runs 773 pages, for instance. I don't have a copy of the Coptic synaxarium, but I imagine it is of comparable length. And that's just one type of compendium of writings concerning saints' lives and doings; there are also various Vitas (e.g., of St. Anthony by his disciple St. Athanasius, of St. Shenouda of Atripe by his disciple St. Besa, of St. John the Little by Zacharias of Sakha, etc.), martyrologies, and other genres like the sayings of the Desert Fathers and so on.
What is the percentage of Orthodox people who have angelic experiences that are meant to be shared with the whole world?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Okay. Why is this question being treated as if it is categorically off limits, then? What if God wants you to testify to this and you are not doing so out of a misguided attempt to preserve the sacredness of the visitations of His angels? Do you know that this is not the case, such that answers focusing on how this is 'incredibly disrespectful' aren't perhaps making too broad a statement?

I could understand the Mormon replies here a bit better if people were saying "I don't personally feel comfortable talking about this stuff, but here's a resource you can read where other people do talk about it" (since that would satisfy the OP without exposing anyone's personal stories that they didn't already put out there), but the way that the OP is being non-answered makes it seem like it's an offense to even ask. That's what's so weird to me.

I would welcome people showing interest in my faith, and if it is done by talking about miracles, then so what? It gets them talking and thinking about it. After all, isn't that why miracles happen in the first place -- to confirm the presence of God among His people so that they may believe and bear witness to Him? A miracle (be it a visitation, healing, or whatever) that cannot be talked about because it's too sacred to be discussed by mere people is kind of a lousy miracle.

In traditional churches, the Eucharist is the zenith of the liturgy, during which time is manifested among us the true Christ Whose body and blood we consume in the Eucharistic sacrifice, for the salvation of our souls. Being that this is what is taking place, we literally prostrate ourselves before the Holy blood and body during the section of the liturgy when they are presented and respond to the priest's proclamations by saying "We worship Your holy body, and Your precious blood".

eucharist-in-coptic-church2.jpg


There literally cannot be anything more sacred than direct communion with our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. And because it is so sacred, we talk about it! We want people to understand what is going on and why and what it all means.


Why is the Mormon reaction so different than this? Even those Christians who do not believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist and instead regard it as a memorial still talk about it openly with those who want to learn whatever it is their particular church teaches about it. I grew up in the Presbyterian Church, which at least in our church favored grape juice and crackers (Lord have mercy!), and yet I can remember our pastor still talking about the last supper, and treating it with all the gravitas he could muster in the context of that church's theology.

The point is that it is still talked about. I have not seen anyone retreat into this 'too sacred to discuss' idea in any Christian church I've been in, whether Protestant, Catholic, or now Orthodox. The closest thing I've ever heard is that some things are too sacred, too far above our ability to comprehend them to be encapsulated in language, but that's a different stance than saying 'talking about them is inherently offensive', which is how some of these replies are coming off.

I mean, Christianity itself maintains as a matter of basic doctrine and faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who came down from heaven to save and redeem mankind and the entire creation. So we have a religion which says "God literally came here and walked, talked, healed, preached, died, and resurrected among us." What could be more sacred than being in the literal presence of God? And yet that's what we say happened, and still happens! And we're so committed to it that we wrote a whole book about it (the New Testament), and many, many, many other things (all the writings of the fathers, the canons and creeds of the councils, the hymns, the martyrologies, etc.), all to communicate it to people.

And it's the most sacred thing that has ever happened.

I am filled with praise beyond all words for our masters and fathers the apostles and their disciples, because they did not think this a thing to be held onto among themselves so that the likes of us wouldn't ruin it somehow, but instead brought it to us so that we may be transformed by it as they themselves were!
Another great post, dzheremi. And it all goes back to what I said before, how Christian churches are so open in sharing everything that any person of any faith can walk into any church any time (that they're open) and sit, and watch, and inquire, and discuss. And those visitors are welcomed and the people of the church are happy they came for WHATEVER reason, even if they came as tourists to take pictures.

In Armenia, one of the biggest tourist activities is to travel around the nation and visit all the ancient churches and monasteries. Some are rarely or not in use (some are even in ruins) and some are active almost all the time. Some of them are even monasteries and they welcome visitors. And visitors show up in cargo shorts and T-shirts, with backpacks and cameras and video cameras, and with bottles of water, and this is how they visit. And they are always WELCOMED. And if they talk to one of the priests or monks or deacons or members then they are told anything they ask about. That is Christianity.

And as you said it is seen in all the Christian churches from Protestant to Catholic to Orthodox. I used to travel extensively in the US and sometimes would go to Baptist Church or other protestant or catholic churches and always people would greet me, welcome me, offer me hospitality. And I was allowed to enter and visit anyplace that those members could. And always they would be happy to answer any of my questions! Nothing was off-limits! Contrast that to when I would visit a Mormon Visitor's Center (let alone visit a chapel of theirs where I got interrogated, or their Temples where they don't let any outsiders in) and the missionaries in the Visitor's Center would refuse to discuss certain topics with me. At the time I didn't understand why but now I understand that they consider me unworthy, a dog or swine that they would be casting their pearls before.

But that is the nature of occultism vs. the nature of Christianity.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Another great post, dzheremi. And it all goes back to what I said before, how Christian churches are so open in sharing everything that any person of any faith can walk into any church any time (that they're open) and sit, and watch, and inquire, and discuss.
ArmenianJohn, Dzheremi, and anyone else is welcome to come to an LDS church services and worship God. In fact, I highly encourage it. Would you like to come?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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ArmenianJohn, Dzheremi, and anyone else is welcome to come to an LDS church services and worship God. In fact, I highly encourage it. Would you like to come?
I'd love to come see a Temple Wedding and Endowment ceremony. Am I welcome to show up to one? Can I bring dzheremi, PhoebeAnn and BigDaddy?

PS - You are welcome to any of my church's locations. We have a great Cathedral in NYC if you're ever in town. No need to let anyone know - just show up, come as you are, and if the Church is open go right on in, no matter what is going on - mass, wedding, confirmation, baptism, ordination - anything. Just go in. Nobody will even question you! :)

Armenian Apostolic Church

St. Vartan Cathedral
630 Second Avenue
New York, NY 10016

The cathedral is located at the corner of Second Avenue and 34th Street in midtown Manhattan.

The cathedral is open from 9:30 a.m. to
5:30 p.m. seven days a week, and tours are available.

Clergy are available at the cathedral daily and further pastoral services can be arranged by contacting the cathedral directly.

For more information, call St. Vartan Cathedral at (212) 686-0710, or e-mail its dean, Very Rev. Fr. Mamigon Kiledjian, at
hayrmamigon@armeniandiocese.org.

Sunday Services:
Morning Service is at 9:30 a.m.
The Divine Liturgy is at 10:30 a.m.

Weekday Services:
Morning and evening services are held Tuesday through Friday. Morning services begin at 8 a.m. Evening services begin at 6 p.m.

Additional services are held during special seasons and on feast days.

The cathedral also offers religious education and other activities.

Sunday School
Every Sunday from 10:30 a.m. to 12 noon

Armenian School
Every Saturday from 10 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.

Senior Citizens Group
Every Thursday from 11:30 a.m. to 2 p.m.

Additionally, seasonal Bible Study groups meet in the cathedral's classrooms and the Shushi Armenian Dance Ensemble, the men's basketball team, and the St. Vartan Cathedral Choir meet weekly throughout much of the year.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I'd love to come see a Temple Wedding and Endowment ceremony. Am I welcome to show up to one? Can I bring dzheremi, PhoebeAnn and BigDaddy?
Well those aren't at your local church, and not for just watching. But if you would like to participate and embrace the LDS faith, you're welcome to contact your local missionaries. Would you like that?
PS - You are welcome to any of my church's locations.
Same here.
No need to let anyone know - just show up, come as you are, and if the Church is open go right on in, no matter what is going on - mass, wedding, confirmation, baptism, ordination - anything. Just go in. Nobody will even question you! :)
May I participate in these rites without embracing your faith? Be ordained as a priest/priestess? Act as such? Speak from the pulpit?
Armenian Apostolic Church

St. Vartan Cathedral
630 Second Avenue
New York, NY 10016

The cathedral is located at the corner of Second Avenue and 34th Street in midtown Manhattan.

The cathedral is open from 9:30 a.m. to
5:30 p.m. seven days a week, and tours are available.

Clergy are available at the cathedral daily and further pastoral services can be arranged by contacting the cathedral directly.

For more information, call St. Vartan Cathedral at (212) 686-0710, or e-mail its dean, Very Rev. Fr. Mamigon Kiledjian, at
hayrmamigon@armeniandiocese.org.

Sunday Services:
Morning Service is at 9:30 a.m.
The Divine Liturgy is at 10:30 a.m.

Weekday Services:
Morning and evening services are held Tuesday through Friday. Morning services begin at 8 a.m. Evening services begin at 6 p.m.

Additional services are held during special seasons and on feast days.

The cathedral also offers religious education and other activities.

Sunday School
Every Sunday from 10:30 a.m. to 12 noon

Armenian School
Every Saturday from 10 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.

Senior Citizens Group
Every Thursday from 11:30 a.m. to 2 p.m.

Additionally, seasonal Bible Study groups meet in the cathedral's classrooms and the Shushi Armenian Dance Ensemble, the men's basketball team, and the St. Vartan Cathedral Choir meet weekly throughout much of the year.
Great! My local congregation has:
Sunday Services:
Morning Service is at 11 a.m.

Sunday School
Every Sunday from 12:20 to 1

Women's/Men's groups
Every Sunday from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

Other individual interest groups have different times throughout the week. Do you have any particular that interest you?
 
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dzheremi

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ArmenianJohn, Dzheremi, and anyone else is welcome to come to an LDS church services and worship God. In fact, I highly encourage it. Would you like to come?

Coptic Orthodox Christians are forbidden from attending non-Orthodox meetings (we are much more strict than the Armenians in this regard), so I'm afraid that I am going to have to politely decline. But thank you very much for the offer. :) That's very nice of you.
 
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Ironhold

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Coptic Orthodox Christians are forbidden from attending non-Orthodox meetings

...and yet somehow, we are the "cult" because...

No seriously, restrictions like that tend to ping whatever list of "cult" behavior the Christian counter-cult is working with in a given day.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Coptic Orthodox Christians are forbidden from attending non-Orthodox meetings
That is something I did not know about your faith!

Why is that?
I love attending other faiths and do so as often, including participating when appropriate (in the local tradition and when we're on the same page).
 
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dzheremi

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...and yet somehow, we are the "cult" because...

No seriously, restrictions like that tend to ping whatever list of "cult" behavior the Christian counter-cult is working with in a given day.

This is entirely inappropriate and misguided. Our ecclesiology is based on what we recognize as real doctrinal differences between us and these other churches. This is the exact same reason why Mormons would attend, say, a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church, correct?
 
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Jane_Doe

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This is entirely inappropriate and misguided. Our ecclesiology is based on what we recognize as real doctrinal differences between us and these other churches. This is the exact same reason why Mormons would attend, say, a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church, correct?
Mormons may attend services wherever. I've attended all sorts of Christian services, Jewish, Islam, Wiccan, Buddhist, etc. I'll be supporting my niece at her baby baptism later this spring and LDS doctrine specifically calls out infant baptisms as being invalid. I'm going to support my niece and her folks, not because I agree with infant baptism.

That's why I'm so surprised by this restriction of yours. The only other group I've encountered something like that is some JW (or at leas the only group I can think of right now).
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Well those aren't at your local church, and not for just watching. But if you would like to participate and embrace the LDS faith, you're welcome to contact your local missionaries. Would you like that?
So you're saying I'm not allowed to be a guest in the temple for a wedding or endowment ceremony? You're proving my point - I would have to join and "participate and embrace the LDS faith". Let's say I do that - can I go to the wedding or endowment ceremony on the same day that I "participate and embrace the LDS faith"??? That very same day? Or even that same week, or month? Year??? How long from the time I join mormonism to the earliest possible day they let me into the temple whenever I want?

And while those are not at my local mormon church, they are at my local mormon temple - so why can't I go? Can you explain to me and everyone here why I am not allowed in the mormon temple? I work very close to the NYC mormon temple. Can you tell me that I can go there, walk in whenever they are open, and then watch whatever they are doing, whether priesthood or endowment or wedding or baptism or whatever? Can I walk in and just go relax in the Celestial Kingdom room? You know, the all-white one?

If we were talking about a Christian church or cathedral or chapel - any Christian religious building for the church members - you as a guest would be entitled to visit and watch whatever you want and go wherever you want just like any church member. But you know very well that the mormon temple doesn't allow just anyone in. It is exclusive.

Same here.
No, not same there. Your church won't let me into certain places or to see certain things, i.e. mormon temple and mormon endowment ceremony or mormon temple wedding. So no, not "same [t]here".

May I participate in these rites without embracing your faith? Be ordained as a priest/priestess? Act as such? Speak from the pulpit?
\
No. But you are welcome to be a guest and to watch them in any of our buildings - churches, chapels, cathedrals... We don't have temples though, because we're Christians.

Great! My local congregation has:
Sunday Services:
Morning Service is at 11 a.m.

Sunday School
Every Sunday from 12:20 to 1

Women's/Men's groups
Every Sunday from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

Other individual interest groups have different times throughout the week. Do you have any particular that interest you?
I already told you - the endowment ceremony and temple wedding. Why are you dodging that?

You know, you can see a priesthood (ordination) ceremony in any of my church's locations - chapels, cathedrals, churches. Can I see your church's priesthood ceremony?

Here is part of my church's priesthood ceremony:

Notice the cameras, even a priest has a video camera and there are flashes, because we cherish our sacred sacraments so much we want to record and remember them!

How about your church's priesthood ceremony, can I go see that? Do you have a YouTube video of one? What about the "Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and sinew..." How does that part go? Is this open to me such that you or someone in your church will discuss it with me or share it with me as a guest who is not a member of the mormon church and/or temple?

I mean, you're saying the mormon church is all so open so please feel free to elaborate on my questions.
 
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Jane_Doe

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So you're saying I'm not allowed to be a guest in the temple for a wedding or endowment ceremony?
There are no spectators of any faith, just participants.
Let's say I do that - can I go to the wedding or endowment ceremony on the same day that I "participate and embrace the LDS faith"??? That very same day? Or even that same week, or month?
May I join your Orthodox faith and be ordained a Bishop the same day? Same answer here.
And while those are not at my local mormon church, they are at my local mormon temple - so why can't I go? Can you explain to me and everyone here why I am not allowed in the mormon temple? I work very close to the NYC mormon temple.
Are you ready to make those covenants with the Lord?
Can you tell me that I can go there, walk in whenever they are open, and then watch whatever they are doing, whether priesthood or endowment or wedding or baptism or whatever? Can I walk in and just go relax in the Celestial Kingdom room? You know, the all-white one?
You're hilarious! No one does that. Temples exist to make covenants with the Lord, not to lounge around.
If we were talking about a Christian church or cathedral or chapel - any Christian religious building for the church members - you as a guest would be entitled to visit and watch whatever you want and go wherever you want just like any church member.
And you are welcome to do the same at my chapel (the equivalent of your Cathedral).
No, not same there. Your church won't let me into certain places or to see certain things, i.e. mormon temple and mormon endowment ceremony or mormon temple wedding. So no, not "same [t]here".
It is quite the same: your church won't even let me speak from your pulpit! Let alone bless your Lord's Supper, or other priesthood duties.
 
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dzheremi

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That is something I did not know about your faith!

That's okay! Even if you had known, it's still very nice of you to offer. I do very much appreciate it; my particular church is just very strict in many things that most other churches are comparatively more lax about, even other churches in the same communion (like ArmenianJohn's). The stereotype about the OO is that the Copts and the Tewahedo (Ethiopians and Eritreans) are more 'strict' in matters like marriage and church attendance, while the Syriacs (Middle Eastern and Indian) and the Armenians are more 'lax'. Granted, this is all relative, and it does not in any way harm the communion shared by us all, since we are defined by our common faith, not by how open or closed we may be to churches outside of our communion. The OO churches probably more so than any other communion are very much autocephalous (independent from each other in terms of ecclesiastical governance, as opposed to, say, the Roman Catholic model where there are a lot of different individual churches in the communion, but they all answer to the same bishop -- the bishop of Rome), so it does not harm us at all to have different standards, which after all only arose from different experiences affecting the Copts, or the Syriacs, or the Armenians, etc.

Why is that?

For the Copts in particular, we were lucky (?) to largely be forgotten by most other Christians outside of our communion for about a thousand years after Chalcedon (451 AD). There's even a recent book on the European 'discovery' (rediscovery) of the Copts in the Middle Ages, The Copts and the West 1439-1822 by Alastair Hamilton (Oxford University Press, 2006). The opening date of that range corresponds to the arrival of Egyptian and Ethiopian delegations to Rome for the Roman Catholic Council of Florence (1431-1449), which was an attempted reunion council between Rome and the Oriental Orthodox (out of communion with Rome since 451/506) and Eastern Orthodox (out of communion with Rome since 1054). At that council, the Egyptians and Ethiopians agreed to be in communion with Rome again under the understanding that it would be a union of two equal churches (the Coptic and the Orthodox Tewahedo churches of East Africa being one church from the days of HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, who sent the Kingdom of Axum her first bishops c. 330 after the conversion of King Ezana, until those of Pope Yusab II in the 1950s), while obviously the Romans themselves had a different idea of what the union would mean. Hence it never really got off the ground because it turned out that the two sides did not actually see eye to eye.

This is kind of symptomatic of Coptic engagement with Western Christianity in general, as the next major push of foreign Christian churches into Egypt was the Roman Catholics who sent Jesuit missionaries and explorers there in the 16th to 18th centuries with the idea of converting the Coptic people to Roman Catholicism. These provided Europe with some of the first accurate maps and other information on Egypt's monasteries, but did not really accomplish Rome's goals, due to again a misunderstanding between the foreign visitors and the Copts. (The patriarch of the time, HH Pope John XVI, even sent one of the Jesuit missionaries in 1703 to Ethiopia to carry the chrism/holy oil consecrated in Egypt to that country, as the Jesuits were using Egypt as a base from which to send Roman Catholic missionaries into Ethiopia; I'm not sure what to make of that...probably HH established cordial relations with them because it was easier to have foreigners take it than to have Egyptian Christians do so, since they still lived under the laws governing non-Muslim citizens and hence had restricted communications with their coreligionists.)

A little later on, beginning in the 1850s or so, the first Protestant missionaries came, from various parts of Europe and America. Unlike the earlier Roman Catholics, who had such trouble establishing a Coptic Catholic Church that this church had something like three false starts before it even got off the ground (including its once former leader, one Athanasius who had converted to Catholicism in Jerusalem in 1741, leaving it to return to Orthodoxy only three years later), the Protestants were actually quite successful in some regard, because they set up schools and brought European technology with them. This was the period when the printing press was first brought into Egypt (which was received with great ceremony at the patriarchate, which wasted no time in using it to set up a printing house for the standardization and propagation of Church materials -- the first ever printing house in Egypt), we first adopted the concept of 'Sunday School' (this was not known in Egypt until the Protestants introduced it), and there was a great leap forward in emphasis on education in general. (The Roman Catholics, too, had set up a college in Rome for the education of Coptic priests to be used in their uniate church.)

It did not take the Coptic people long to realize, however, that with education provided by Western Christian missionaries who regarded us basically as pagans came Western ideas about Christianity, Western doctrines, and ultimately apostasy. Knowing this, and knowing how many people in the Church were very poor and had no other options to provide their children with education, in the 1860s, HH Pope Demetrius II (r. 1861-1870), issued a papal bull condemning the missionary schools as unsuitable for the education of Coptic people due to their teaching foreign religious doctrines. The document reads in part: “But oh our children, our joy and rejoicing and the boast of our preaching, although the conditions of you all are joyous and pleasing, and ye are abiding in the true orthodox faith and established in the honoured sacraments of your church, and respecting exceedingly its spiritual ordinances, and rites and ceremonies, yet in this spiritual garden which the right hand of the Lord Christ planted by means of his priestly apostles, and their righteous disciples and successors, and in the spiritual cultivation of which they laboured, there are to be found two things which are displeasing, nay exceedingly grievous, and depressing, and heart-rending. The first of these is the reception by some of you of the doctrines of those opposers who follow the Protestants, sometimes by receiving and reading their books, and sometimes by hearkening to their words, and being made to doubt by them and follow them. The second, that it has not sufficed that the adults have looked upon these poisons, but with your own hands you have cast your little ones into their deadly snares, since one gives over his boy to their school, and another his daughter unto them, that they may cause them to drink from their childhood the milk of error.”

HH then issues the following warning: "Therefore, from this time henceforth, whoever transgresses and dares to take his son or daughter from his own church or school, and introduce him into the school of the Protestants, in order to abide therein and learn its detestable sciences, let him be under the excommunicating word of God."

What I hope for you to get out of this is that many of our interactions with foreign churches and foreign Christians were decidedly negative, as the (re-)establishment of these contacts carried with them the missionary imperatives of the Westerners who would like to see us leave our church for theirs. This is not so odd in itself (after all, we'd rather everyone be Orthodox :)), but in the context of a situation wherein such unions are attempted without the two sides understanding each other to begin with, they can't really be said to be on solid ground whether you consider them good or bad. As the oft-repeated story of the Bishop of Asyut and the Scottish Presbyterian missionaries in the 1860s goes, the missionaries sought to 'convert the Copts to Christianity' (hahahahaha), and the bishop, after listening to their arguments in favor of their denomination, replied "We have been living with Christ for almost 2000 years; how long have your people been living with Him?"

Being as we have everything to lose and basically nothing to gain from responding to the overtures of those who do not understand us and who we do not agree with anyway, it has been the rule since the 1860s that the Coptic Orthodox people are not to attend non-Orthodox meetings. Everything in our faith is given to us by God and is sufficient for us, and so we approach everything with that in mind, faithful to what we have in recognition of what a pearl we have been blessed to be the inheritors of -- not so that it not be shared with others, but so that we treat it according to its priceless value. (Read: so it's not about the world being terrible and full of people who hate God or anything, but about loving God and acting accordingly.)

Now, with all that said, we do realize that we are not actually living in the 1860s anymore. For instance, I am not in Egypt (and never have been), and an increasing number of Coptic people who have immigrated out of North Africa since the 1950s aren't either. And the situation in America is really not comparable to the situation in Egypt. So I personally know Coptic people who have sent their children to Catholic schools with the approval of their bishops, who recognize that in a Western context in particular, these are the best of the available choices (very, very few places have Coptic Orthodox schools which are accredited, since we are such a new church in the West). So we are not overly rigid or deaf to the needs of people, but in order to circumvent the more general rule of "no going to/participating in non-OO religious things", you need to have an actual reason beyond just wanting to or being offered (it's not that those are 'bad' reasons, necessarily; they're just not doctrinally or theologically substantial as the reasons for having this ecclesiology are). Closer to home, the community that I used to be a part of when I was in NM went some years without the necessary ecclesiastical structure around them in order to even hold liturgies (they couldn't get a priest sent to them by the nearest bishop, since there weren't enough people at the location). As a result, they received the approval of the nearest Coptic Orthodox bishop and Eastern Orthodox bishop to attend the liturgies at the local Greek Orthodox church (the Greek Orthodox Church is not a part of the Oriental Orthodox communion, so without such an agreement this would not be allowed). This arrangement ended when they got their own priest sometime later (when I moved away two years ago, the priest was still flown in on alternate weekends from Arizona; I don't know if that's still the case today).

The bottom line is that as a Church our history of interaction with those of other confessions has been at best mixed and given us plenty of reason to maintain that we stick only to our own services, seminaries, schools, etc., as far as is possible, and that when such is not possible, we only make other arrangements via very strict guidelines, and then only for as long as is necessary until we may resume our normative practice.

I should also say that I have been personally told by my own priest that I am not to go to the local Eastern Orthodox churches in my home area (OCA and Bulgarian), so I cannot rely on some kind of exception as was allowed in NM to be applied to me here in CA when the context is different (there it was a community; here I am one individual). So I too would have a very high bar to meet were I to write to the nearest Coptic Orthodox bishop about the situation here, and I cannot conceive of any situation on the earth that would arise so as to make it appropriate for a Coptic Orthodox person such as myself to attend Mormon meetings when there are services of other communities that are much more mainstream (and hence closer to us in matters of faith, doctrine, and liturgy) which would be available.

An aside on the other churches in our communion: Just FYI, to my understanding the Armenian openness to other churches is a result of their own unique history which included interaction with Western Christians during times when we did not have any, such as the interactions with the Romans during the Crusades, as well other more recent calamities such as the horrific events of the Turkish genocides which killed something like 90% of Armenian clergy and sent the Armenians into a worldwide diaspora which to this day is quite a bit larger the total population of Armenians in Armenia proper. The Copts never experienced anything even close to that, though fourteen centuries and counting of Islamic rule and about two centuries before that of Chalcedonian rule is no picnic, either.

I also understand that the Syriacs, for their part, allow for a wide cultural latitude, as their nation is divided among many different Christian confessions, and so it is not uncommon to find places in their homeland like Bakhdida (a town in Iraq) which in its many centuries of life has passed in confessional allegiance from the Church of the East (4th century-6th century), to Syriac Orthodox (7th century-18th century), to Syriac Catholic (18th century-present). It is possible and I'm sure is the case for many in the area to have family members of all three confessions without any of them having converted to or from anything in their lifetimes. Such is also the case for Syriac Christians in India.

So you see, everything has its own reasons for being, rooted in the history of particular peoples and places. To be true to the resulting ecclesiastical realities is to be true to those histories.

I love attending other faiths and do so as often, including participating when appropriate (in the local tradition and when we're on the same page).

That's great! I wouldn't want to discourage that just because I can't return the favor. We never had any Mormon visitors during my four years at St. Bishoy in NM, but we did have Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, Jewish, Roman Catholic, and other visitors, and they were all welcomed with open arms provided that they were respectful of our customs and did not try to receive communion with us (in the Orthodox Church, anyway, you will be turned away if the priest does not know you to be a baptized Orthodox Christian who abides by the rules of the Church with regard to participation in the fasts, confession, and so on; when I visited the monastery of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite in New York some years ago, for instance, since I was coming from the other side of the country to stay with people who didn't know me from Adam, I first had to have my priest call and send a letter to them, and I'm told that this was a concession to the fact that our priest just happened to know the priest of the monastery for many years; I'm told that usually such visits require a letter from the bishop, as you are being in a sense temporarily transferred from the care of one bishop to another while you are in his territory).

The visitor to the average Sunday Coptic liturgy could do many things that don't include receiving the Eucharist, reading the epistles, or the other relatively few things that are reserved for believers only. You would still give the same responses (or I should say be encouraged to, but not expected to; even the Greek Orthodox visitors we had found our liturgy a challenge, and they themselves use a variant of the liturgy of St. Basil in their own Church), receive the same blessing upon your head that the priest prays for each individual as he goes about the church with the censer and the same general absolution prayed over all the people, be sprinkled with the same holy water at the close of the service, take the same orban/antidoron as is given to the believers, and be welcomed at the same table for the post liturgy Agape meal (where you too can have Egyptians talk your ear off...oh joy! ;)).

So again, even though the rules for governing ourselves are rather strict, we are not that way toward others at all. The doors of the church are open to everyone -- it's the communion line (and the confessional chair, the marriage ceremony, etc.) that requires conversion to be a part of, and rightfully so.
 
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LinkH

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I've got an idea for how Mormon missionaries can get more converts. They can deliver free Little Caesar's pizza's door to door. Add some jalepeno peppers, or even better, ghost peppers on the side.

Mormon's try to convert people by telling them if they feel the burning in the bosom, they should convert. So if they time it just right, after the pizza and the hot peppers, some of the people will feel a burning right about the time they get to the burning in the bosom part.

Doesn't this make about as much sense as the handshake test?
 
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LinkH

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Btw, what was the source for the OP? Was it from the Kinderhook plates, which Joseph Smith supposedly translated, but then those who asked him to translated him admitted that they had just made the plates themselves? Could it have been from the version Egyptian book of the dead that Smith mistranslated as the Book of Abraham?
 
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Rescued One

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Mormons are supposed to attend Sacrament Meeting regularly to renew the covenant they made at baptism.

Be an example in your Church activity—honor the Sabbath day, attend your meetings, observe the Word of Wisdom, pay your tithes and offerings, support your leaders, and otherwise keep the commandments. Serve cheerfully and gratefully in every calling you receive. Live worthy of a temple recommend and enjoy the sweet, sacred spirit that comes from frequent temple attendance. — Ezra Taft Benson

Attendance at Church each week provides the opportunity to partake of the sacrament, as the Lord has commanded us (see D&C 59:9). If we act with the right preparation and attitude, partaking of the sacrament renews the cleansing effect of our baptism and qualifies us for the promise that we will always have His Spirit to be with us. A mission of that Spirit, the Holy Ghost, is to testify of the Father and the Son and to lead us into truth (see John 14:26; 2 Ne. 31:18). Testimony and truth, which are essential to our personal conversion, are the choice harvest of this weekly renewing of our covenants.
Dallin H. Oaks, The Gospel in Our Lives, General Conference, April 2002
The Gospel in Our Lives - Dallin H. Oaks
 
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Jane_Doe

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That's okay! Even if you had known, it's still very nice of you to offer. I do very much appreciate it; my particular church is just very strict in many things that most other churches are comparatively more lax about, even other churches in the same communion (like ArmenianJohn's). The stereotype about the OO is that the Copts and the Tewahedo (Ethiopians and Eritreans) are more 'strict' in matters like marriage and church attendance, while the Syriacs (Middle Eastern and Indian) and the Armenians are more 'lax'.
Good to know!
For the Copts in particular, we were lucky (?) to largely be forgotten by most other Christians outside of our communion for about a thousand years after Chalcedon (451 AD). There's even a recent book on the European 'discovery' (rediscovery) of the Copts in the Middle Ages, The Copts and the West 1439-1822 by Alastair Hamilton (Oxford University Press, 2006).
I actually find that funny- the idea of "loosing" Egypt.
HH then issues the following warning: "Therefore, from this time henceforth, whoever transgresses and dares to take his son or daughter from his own church or school, and introduce him into the school of the Protestants, in order to abide therein and learn its detestable sciences, let him be under the excommunicating word of God."
Wow- it's not only forbidden, but forbidden under the threat of excommunication?
(Later reading sees more on the exceptions and practicality nowadays)

Reading rest of your response here, I'm struck with a bunch of emotions. I'll try to convey them somewhat coherently below.

-- Thank you for your thorough and balanced response here.

---On one hand, I'm sympathetic to the history of the Coptic people and empathize on effects history have a churches practices. The obvious example for me is the intense life-threatening persecution the LDS people contributed to the modern day practices (I can elaborate on this if you want).

--- Rather than fears your members will be taken in by false doctrines resulting in closeting yourself off from other false faiths (I'm writing this from the Coptic perspective), why not take the opposite approach? Strengthen you and your children in your Coptic faith such that they know the True faith and can always stand as a beacon of True strength, and are unphased by falsehood? That is the LDS approach, and most other faiths I know.

--- I don't feel like learning and visiting (part of learning) other faiths is degrading to your pearl. After all, your collective faith has survived many persecutions and falsehoods and remained pure to what you believe. This strikes me more that you are considering the faith each individual person has a pearl and are worried about that individual's pearl being contented- is that accurate? I feel like I might be misunderstanding.

--- I do have more thoughts on a comparative-religous standpoint, but want to make sure I'm not off base here first.
 
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