LDS Handshake Test (D&C 129)

[KevinSim]

Christianity is not an occult religion. Christianity is an open religion, open to absolutely all people.

Christianity was absolutely based on a deception. All it would have taken would have been one word, one phrase, one whisper about what God's plan really was, and Satan would have swooped in and kept Judas Iscariot from betraying Jesus, or the Sanhedrin from condemning Jesus to die, or kept the Roman soldiers from crucifying Him. Everything was contingent upon Satan not understanding what God's plan really was.

 

[KevinSim]

[1] Has this test been used or is this test being currently used by Latter Day Saints ???? Cite some examples.

I am not aware of this test ever being used by Latter-day Saints. Of course that does not mean it hasn't been used.

[2] If it has not been used and is not used why would God give this revelation to Joseph Smith ???

Well, you can ask a lot of questions like that. In the Hell thread I've asked the question, what good does it do to let the unsaved suffer extreme agony for the rest of eternity? The difference is that if somehow nobody finds an answer to your question, not an awful lot of damage is done; if nobody finds an answer to my question, then an infinite amount of damage is done to all the souls of the unsaved.

 

[Rescued One]

I am not aware of this test ever being used by Latter-day Saints. Of course that does not mean it hasn't been used.


Well, you can ask a lot of questions like that. In the Hell thread I've asked the question, what good does it do to let the unsaved suffer extreme agony for the rest of eternity? The difference is that if somehow nobody finds an answer to your question, not an awful lot of damage is done; if nobody finds an answer to my question, then an infinite amount of damage is done to all the souls of the unsaved.

Your gods don't forgive most people. You want to portray your gods as lenient. They aren't.

 

[KevinSim]

Your gods don't forgive most people. You want to portray your gods as lenient. They aren't.

I never tried to portray God as lenient. I portrayed my God as a Physician, not a Judge. Judges can be lenient; a physician who is lenient ends up with a lot of dead patients.

 

[fatboys]

Your gods don't forgive most people. You want to portray your gods as lenient. They aren't.

Holy cow. You believe that God has predestined those to be saved and the rest be damned. You believe that you are saved, not from any act that you have performed in faith but because God has predestined to be saved. You have no choice at all except to saved. Even if you turned to be a serial killer you would still be saved because chose you by his own pleasure. And you have the gall to say our god is not very forgiving?

 

[Ironhold]

I've got an idea for how Mormon missionaries can get more converts. They can deliver free Little Caesar's pizza's door to door. Add some jalepeno peppers, or even better, ghost peppers on the side.

Mormon's try to convert people by telling them if they feel the burning in the bosom, they should convert. So if they time it just right, after the pizza and the hot peppers, some of the people will feel a burning right about the time they get to the burning in the bosom part.

Doesn't this make about as much sense as the handshake test?

Did you really just say this?

 

[Ironhold]

Btw, what was the source for the OP? Was it from the Kinderhook plates, which Joseph Smith supposedly translated, but then those who asked him to translated him admitted that they had just made the plates themselves? Could it have been from the version Egyptian book of the dead that Smith mistranslated as the Book of Abraham?

The bulk of the Doctrine & Covenants is a series of revelations given to Joseph Smith during his lifetime.

As far as Kinderhook goes - LDS FAQ/Mormon Answers: Questions about Book of Mormon Problems and Alleged Contradictions . The historical record is actually against his having attempted more than a single character before dropping the effort altogether.

 

[Rescued One]

Holy cow. You believe that God has predestined those to be saved and the rest be damned. You believe that you are saved, not from any act that you have performed in faith but because God has predestined to be saved. You have no choice at all except to saved. Even if you turned to be a serial killer you would still be saved because chose you by his own pleasure. And you have the gall to say our god is not very forgiving?

Misrepresentation of what I believe is a bad habit to persist in.

"Biblical theology is a living and breathing theology that transforms our entire being. True Christianity is far more than an intellectual assent. For example, it is important to affirm a coherent, orthodox doctrine of the person of Christ, but if we do this without following His example, we have not really formulated an orthodox doctrine at all (1 John 2:22–23, 26)."
Robert Rothwell is associate editor of Tabletalk, adjunct professor at Reformation Bible College, and a graduate of Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, Fla.

Christians are not serial killers. No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Moses was a murderer who apparently repented.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow- it's not only forbidden, but forbidden under the threat of excommunication?

Absolutely. Why would it not be? These were not altruistic missions for the betterment of Coptic people for their own sake out of humanitarian concerns or whatever. The foreign schools were set up to teach the doctrines of the foreign churches with the aim of converting the native Christians to those denominations. We do not want any of that, so of course there should be serious consequences, just as there are serious consequences for marrying outside of the faith, or communion outside of the communion, or anything else we are not to do.

--- Rather than fears your members will be taken in by false doctrines resulting in closeting yourself off from other false faiths (I'm writing this from the Coptic perspective), why not take the opposite approach? Strengthen you and your children in your Coptic faith such that they know the True faith and can always stand as a beacon of True strength, and are unphased by falsehood? That is the LDS approach, and most other faiths I know.

How is that the opposite approach? Maybe there's something I'm not understanding about what you mean here, but HH Pope Demetrius II or any of his successors among the bishops drawing a line in the sand and forbidding something to be done that shouldn't be done to begin with is about strengthening the faith. It is the introduction of foreign doctrines by the missionaries and those who had/have been educated by them which weakens the faith, not the strong response to them that clarifies that we must keep to our own faith and not adopt that of others or mix it with ours or whatever.

I had a longer reply to this, but then I found this video compilation of interviews with our current pope, HH Pope Tawadros II, about the problem of Protestant hymns being sung in some Coptic Orthodox churches (like the first one he mentions, at the Church of St. Simon the Tanner at Mt. Mokattam, where Protestants had held 'praise meetings' for some time despite the fact that it is an Orthodox Church; HG Bishop Abanoub spoke up some years ago to put a stop to the Protestant infiltration, thank God, telling the people in no uncertain terms that this will not be tolerated; essentially, he said "I will not allow anyone with ties to the foreigners into this church to lead any meeting; you are either Orthodox and worship as Orthodox or you leave together with the others we've already sent away from the church for the same offenses"). I think these short clips with English subtitles say more about why we have the reaction that we do than I could ever say. It's a matter of faith, doctrine, identity...all of these things that make a person of a particular faith tradition (Orthodox, Mormon, Protestant, whatever) and not another.

--- I don't feel like learning and visiting (part of learning) other faiths is degrading to your pearl. After all, your collective faith has survived many persecutions and falsehoods and remained pure to what you believe. This strikes me more that you are considering the faith each individual person has a pearl and are worried about that individual's pearl being contented- is that accurate? I feel like I might be misunderstanding.

Yeah, that's not really what I mean. By 'pearl' I had in mind instead what we have been given by our fathers -- by the Evangelist and Apostle St. Mark, the pillars of faith St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St. Cyril, our teacher St. Dioscorus, St. Basil, St. Gregory, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, St. Anthony the Father of the Monks, etc. It's not an individualistic thing (though it does reside in every Orthodox individual, when they live the Church's life), but the lived experience of the Church itself for 2,000 years with Christ, from the flight of the Holy Family to Egypt, to the coming of St. Mark, the birth of Christian monasticism, and so on until today.

To chase after other doctrines and other churches or whatever else that is not what we have been given is not something that we can endorse. This does not mean that we cannot learn about other faiths (indeed, the Coptic Orthodox Church has played a large role in the modern Christian ecumenical movement since the 1960s, and there are many works on matters of comparative religion written by Coptic Orthodox theologians and leaders, both today and in the past). But it does mean that first and foremost we must have a good sense of what it is right to do and say in the context of our own faith and religion. That's why I wrote before that we are much more strict with ourselves than we are with others. A Protestant in Orthodox dress is much, much more dangerous than a Protestant who is not trying to blur the lines.

 

[Jane_Doe]

How is that the opposite approach? Maybe there's something I'm not understanding about what you mean here, but HH Pope Demetrius II or any of his successors among the bishops drawing a line in the sand and forbidding something to be done that shouldn't be done to begin with is about strengthening the faith. It is the introduction of foreign doctrines by the missionaries and those who had/have been educated by them which weakens the faith, not the strong response to them that clarifies that we must keep to our own faith and not adopt that of others or mix it with ours or whatever.

Strengthening your member’s faith would involve things like teaching your members about the faith more. Teach what is right and what it wrong, so they cannot be deceived. Strengthening their conviction to the Orthodox faith more through experience in the faith, knowledge of the faith, and heart in love of the faith. So that when a false idea comes around they are not phrased, for they know the Truth? Why not do that instead?

It is the opposite approach because rather than focusing on shutting up falsehoods, it focuses on speaking truth.

Yeah, that's not really what I mean. By 'pearl' I had in mind instead what we have been given by our fathers -- by the Evangelist and Apostle St. Mark, the pillars of faith St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St. Cyril, our teacher St. Dioscorus, St. Basil, St. Gregory, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, St. Anthony the Father of the Monks, etc. It's not an individualistic thing (though it does reside in every Orthodox individual, when they live the Church's life), but the lived experience of the Church itself for 2,000 years with Christ, from the flight of the Holy Family to Egypt, to the coming of St. Mark, the birth of Christian monasticism, and so on until today.

But an individual going to a Protestant school or even converting to Protestantism isn’t going to change what Mark wrote. There isn’t a threat there at all.

To chase after other doctrines and other churches or whatever else that is not what we have been given is not something that we can endorse. This does not mean that we cannot learn about other faiths (indeed, the Coptic Orthodox Church has played a large role in the modern Christian ecumenical movement since the 1960s, and there are many works on matters of comparative religion written by Coptic Orthodox theologians and leaders, both today and in the past).

Visiting another church is part of learning about their faith. Visiting doesn’t mean you have to endorse their doctrines at all. Again, I’ll cite the example of me attending my infant niece’s baptism.

But it does mean that first and foremost we must have a good sense of what it is right to do and say in the context of our own faith and religion. That's why I wrote before that we are much more strict with ourselves than we are with others. A Protestant in Orthodox dress is much, much more dangerous than a Protestant who is not trying to blur the lines.

I’m sorry, but this is striking me as a hypocritical duel standard. You’re encouraging others to do what is forbidden to others.

 

[dzheremi]

Strengthening your member’s faith would involve things like teaching your members about the faith more. Teach what is right and what it wrong, so they cannot be deceived.

What else would you imagine that church is about? That's the point of everything we do.

Strengthening their conviction to the Orthodox faith more through experience in the faith, knowledge of the faith, and heart in love of the faith. So that when a false idea comes around they are not phrased, for they know the Truth? Why not do that instead?

I don't know if you watched the full video of HH Pope Tawadros II that I linked, but there's a part where HH mentions that exposure to attractive but untrue things tends to deaden a person's receptiveness to the truth. And that's completely true.

I mentioned in the last post the case of the Church of St. Simon the Tanner at Mt. Mokattam, where Protestants had been holding meetings for years despite the fact that this is an Orthodox Church. Apparently the local clergy had been up to a point disinclined to step in and correct the situation, as the area is the home of the zabaleen (garbage pickers), the absolute poorest class of people in Egypt (all Christians) who lived in a nearby garbage dump and made their money by recycling refuse, as they have for centuries (since such work is considered to be beneath members of the Muslim majority). From what I've been told, the attitude was something like "These people have nothing, so how can we take this thing (charismatic Protestant worship meetings) that gives them hope and comfort away?" The problem with that is that a lax attitude like that only entrenches the problem further, to the point where by the time HG Bishop Abanaoub decided to step in, he was dealing with people who knew what the truth was (i.e., they had been Orthodox all the while attending these meetings, by virtue of having grown up in the Church before the Protestants ever came to that location) , but were so steeped in the mindset of the foreign leaders that they don't really know who they are or what they're doing or why.

In HG's own words:

It is the opposite approach because rather than focusing on shutting up falsehoods, it focuses on speaking truth.

What you've just witnessed in the above video (and the video before that) is the absolute truth which shuts up falsehoods. That's the point of speaking the truth in the first place. It doesn't exist merely to be one option among many which are equally okay if that's what a person wants. At least not if that person is to be Orthodox. To be Orthodox, you must live according to the Church's standard of life, which for Coptic people does not include being able to attend the meetings of other confessions just because they're there and you want to (again, there are situations where this general rule is modified in light of a person's individual circumstances, but the rule remains as it is for a reason, so you have to have very good reasons for needing to go against it in order to be permitted to do so). So what you are suggesting is what the Church already does; you just don't appear to be seeing it that way because it doesn't result in a situation where everyone may do whatever they want so long as they know what they should be doing. Judging by the applause that the crowd responds with as HG is chewing them out in the above video, I'm going to guess that the people there mostly do know what they should be doing. Yet probably most of them went to and/or helped organize the Protestant meetings, because they were attracted to that style of worship. Well that's not something we can endorse. That's not a good enough reason to not do what you know you should be doing. We're not an "everybody do what you want" church. We're the Orthodox Church, and as HG rightly says in the above video, when these things are allowed even though 'everyone knows the truth', it robs the people of that area of a church. "Where is the Coptic Orthodox Church at this location? ... The correction is constant."

But an individual going to a Protestant school or even converting to Protestantism isn’t going to change what Mark wrote. There isn’t a threat there at all.

Where did I ever say it did? Protestant, Mormon, Catholic, and Orthodox bibles all have the Gospel of St. Mark in them. That's not the point at all.

Visiting another church is part of learning about their faith. Visiting doesn’t mean you have to endorse their doctrines at all. Again, I’ll cite the example of me attending my infant niece’s baptism.

Which is fine for you, as a Mormon. I actually haven't encountered this issue yet (surprisingly, since I have Roman Catholic friends and family, and there's a Roman Catholic Church in my town; I used to go to it when I was Roman Catholic, and one of my best friends worked at the attached school for a few years, so I've been there plenty of times since then, just never for religious ceremonies since becoming Orthodox), but based on the message I have gotten directly from our bishop, HG Bishop Youssef, and our priests Fr. Marcus and Fr. Philemon, I know better than to ask when I'll just be told no, I can't go to a Roman Catholic mass. This is part of the Orthodox faith.

I’m sorry, but this is striking me as a hypocritical duel standard. You’re encouraging others to do what is forbidden to others.

Of course I am. The Orthodox Christian and certainly the Orthodox Church is to always stand up for Orthodoxy, and also invite the non-Orthodox to come and see what it is we do and what we are about, in a spirit of openness and brotherliness. This is no different than any other church, which would of course rather gain members from other traditions than lose them to those same traditions. I'm not really seeing what's hypocritical about that when we're not even slightly entertaining the idea that it's all the same to begin with. We're all Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Church of the East), but as my own priest is fond of saying, the line between who is Orthodox and who is not is different than the line between who is Christian and who is not.

And so we tell our own people "This is what we believe and do, and this other thing is not what we believe and do", and we also tell others the same thing. The difference is that for our own people it has added implications that for others it does not, by virtue of the fact that no non-Orthodox person is compelled to take our stance on anything as the baptized believer is.

So I'm not seeing any hypocrisy here -- just strong ecclesiology which is entirely right to have.

When you go to your family member's Roman Catholic church for the baptism you mentioned, do you tell her that it is 'hypocritical' that by allowing you to attend that but not allowing her to attend Mormon meetings, her Church is "encouraging others to do what is forbidden to others"? I kinda doubt it, though based on what you have written here I don't really see a reason why you shouldn't. Unless something has changed in the 8 years since I left it, the Roman Catholic Church has a similar ecclesiological viewpoint as the Coptic Orthodox Church (i.e., they don't allow their members to attend just any meeting or service for any reason when there are suitably Catholic services available), with the only real difference in this regard being that the RCC allows us to commune with them out of a view that we are closer to them, whereas we restrict communion (both receiving it and giving it) to only baptized OO Christians, so we do not partake from them or offer them communion with us in return, as sacramental communion in Orthodoxy is a sign of shared faith, and we do not agree that we share the same faith with the RCC, regardless of how they may view us. (As a consequence of this, accepting sacraments like the Eucharist or marriage or any other sacrament from another Church results in excommunication; I know several Coptic people who are excommunicated for having married non-OO spouses when they came to America, rather than bringing them into the Church before they married as is required if they are to be sacramentally married according to the Church's own law. This law and the punishment for breaking it is known to everybody, so it's not really a surprise to anyone that this happens to.)

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't know if you watched the full video of HH Pope Tawadros II that I linked

I don't watch videos to learn about faith, I talk to people (in this case you). While I appreciate the thought of you linking videos, the lack of conversation between me and a video is a real turn off.

There's a part where HH mentions that exposure to attractive but untrue things tends to deaden a person's receptiveness to the truth. And that's completely true.

I'm sorry, I'm trying to be polite and respectful here but... how can you say that and then point fingers at LDS for having a negative perception of the world? This is so much more cynical.

What you've just witnessed in the above video (and the video before that) is the absolute truth which shuts up falsehoods. That's the point of speaking the truth in the first place.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on both of these statements.

So what you are suggesting is what the Church already does

Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree.

We're not an "everybody do what you want" church.

Note: I am in NO way suggesting or endorsing that type of idea.

Where did I ever say it did? Protestant, Mormon, Catholic, and Orthodox bibles all have the Gospel of St. Mark in them. That's not the point at all.

Then what pearl are you worried about being tarnished?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Of course I am. The Orthodox Christian and certainly the Orthodox Church is to always stand up for Orthodoxy, and also invite the non-Orthodox to come and see what it is we do and what we are about, in a spirit of openness and brotherliness.

That's not a good thing dzheremi! Hypocrisy is very bad- something we should try so hard to avoid.

This is no different than any other church

No!! Again, with the exception of JW, I have never met a church which hypocritically encourages outsiders to visit them and then forbids their members from visiting outsiders. Most people would condemn such as being extremely cultish and fear-based. Instead, they champion the idea that they teach the Truth, and people will always come to the Truth, so they do not need to close their borders.

So I'm not seeing any hypocrisy here

You are encouraging them to do something you yourself condemn (visit a church other than your own).

just strong ecclesiology which is entirely right to have.

Again, I respectfully passionately disagree.

When you go to your family member's Roman Catholic church for the baptism you mentioned, do you tell her that it is 'hypocritical' that by allowing you to attend that but not allowing her to attend Mormon meetings

She does attend my Mormon meetings with me when she visits. She joyfully attended my daughter's Mormon baby blessing, drove hours to visit a temple open house with me, and spend many nights discussing faith with me. I in turn have visited her Methodist church numerous times, helped out with events, spoke at the pulpit for her wedding, will be driving hours for her daughter's baptism, etc.

This strengthens both of our faiths. It is a great source of strength.

Unless something has changed in the 8 years since I left it, the Roman Catholic Church has a similar ecclesiological viewpoint as the Coptic Orthodox Church (i.e., they don't allow their members to attend just any meeting or service for any reason when there are suitably Catholic services available)

From my study of the Catholic faith (including attending numerous Masses and holiday celebrations) they VERY different than what you describe here. They have zero problem people attending other services, as long as they still fulfill their Sunday obligation to attend Mass.

I know several Coptic people who are excommunicated for having married non-OO spouses when they came to America, rather than bringing them into the Church before they married as is required if they are to be sacramentally married according to the Church's own law. This law and the punishment for breaking it is known to everybody, so it's not really a surprise to anyone that this happens to.)

Wow! Not even JW hold such an extreme position. I have never encountered this in any of the many faiths I have studied.

 

[fatboys]

Misrepresentation of what I believe is a bad habit to persist in.

"Biblical theology is a living and breathing theology that transforms our entire being. True Christianity is far more than an intellectual assent. For example, it is important to affirm a coherent, orthodox doctrine of the person of Christ, but if we do this without following His example, we have not really formulated an orthodox doctrine at all (1 John 2:22–23, 26)."
Robert Rothwell is associate editor of Tabletalk, adjunct professor at Reformation Bible College, and a graduate of Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, Fla.

Christians are not serial killers. No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Moses was a murderer who apparently repented.

Did God choose you to be saved? Did you have any choice in the matter? Since God has elected you to be saved not for anything you have done but by his good pleasure can you become unsaved?

 

[dzheremi]

I don't watch videos to learn about faith, I talk to people (in this case you). While I appreciate the thought of you linking videos, the lack of conversation between me and a video is a real turn off.

What kind of reply is this? When I post a video it is much like a Mormon poster posting a link to the LDS website or some other official source: to show where it is I'm coming from. To not argue from myself, but to provide the words straight from our patriarch's mouth regarding what we do and why we do it.

And of course I do not expect you to interact with the video. That's bizarre. But you could, if you were actually interested, watch it, think about it, ask questions about it, etc. -- the same as I do when presented with sources from LDS posters such as yourself about your own faith. That is what discussion is. It doesn't seem like you're interested in it, or learning why my Church takes the stance that it does (except to later turn around and write about how 'hypocritical' you think it is, as though that's any kind of point to begin with). I don't appreciate this sudden change in attitude.

I'm sorry, I'm trying to be polite and respectful here

Are you?

but... how can you say that and then point fingers at LDS for having a negative perception of the world? This is so much more cynical.

How do you figure? LDS posters call the world a terrible place and somehow that's nothing compared to a Christian leader saying that there is truth and there is falsehood, and embracing falsehood is damaging?

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on both of these statements.

Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree.

As we always seem to be telling each other, I'm not posting to convert you to my way of thinking. I understand that you disagree; that's fine. I'm just putting my view out there (in this case, because you specifically asked me to when you asked me why we are the way we are).

Note: I am in NO way suggesting or endorsing that type of idea.

Well if not that then you are certain suggesting that it is 'hypocrisy' to not allow your faithful to do what Jane Doe thinks they should be able to do, based on some measure (not the Church's measure, which is all that matters for people inside of it).

Then what pearl are you worried about being tarnished?

I'm not worried about anything. I'm saying that the Orthodox are to be Orthodox, just as Catholics are Catholics, Mormons are Mormons, etc. For Coptic Orthodox people in particular, part of preserving what we have includes having very strict ecclesiology for all the reasons I've already mentioned. The Church is not open to everything, even though it is open to everyone.

 

[drstevej]

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Are you?

Yes, very much so.

How do you figure? LDS posters call the world a terrible place and somehow that's nothing compared to a Christian leader saying that there is truth and there is falsehood, and embracing falsehood is damaging?

We LDS do keep our sacred things and only talk about them in sacred places at scared times, but we do not discourage going out visiting other faiths. We still live in this world.

I'm not worried about anything. I'm saying that the Orthodox are to be Orthodox, just as Catholics are Catholics, Mormons are Mormons, etc. For Coptic Orthodox people in particular, part of preserving what we have includes having very strict ecclesiology for all the reasons I've already mentioned. The Church is not open to everything, even though it is open to everyone.

But the Orthodox theology is not corrupted by the members doing anything. The only thing that can be corrupted is the faith that individual- hence my question about is that the pearl you are talking about, to which you said no. If the pearl is the Orthodox theology which is uncorruptable, what pearl are you worried about dirtying? This I do not understand.

 

[dzheremi]

In light of the OP's request that we return to the topic, I am not going to write further on this issue in this thread. If you are interested in discussing Coptic Orthodox ecclesiology further, Jane Doe (or anyone), please let me know via private message and I can start a thread in the Oriental Orthodox forum where we can talk about it without derailing this thread (since LDS aren't permitted to start threads on the forums).

Sorry for derailing your thread, drstevej.

 

[Rescued One]

Sorry. Go to new thread:

LDS Did God choose you to be saved?