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Featured LDS Handshake Test (D&C 129)

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by drstevej, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Doctrine and Covenants 129 states:


    QUESTIONS:

    [1] Has this test been used or is this test being currently used by Latter Day Saints ???? Cite some examples.

    [2] If it has not been used and is not used why would God give this revelation to Joseph Smith ???
     
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  2. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    What exactly are you looking for with these questions?
     
  3. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Answers.
     
  4. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Answers.
     
  5. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I ever see a spirit I'LL give it a try and let you know.
     
  6. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Your post is not responsive to either question I asked.
     
  7. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    I have had many experiences in my life. Some are for me personally and others are shared for the building of testimonies. Whether or not someone has used the test doesn't matter. If I told you that I had used this test several times what would be the purpose of telling you? Will that influence you to think differently about our church or would you think I was making it up or I was mental? Miracles fo not change attitudes.
     
  8. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm sorry I was on my phone in the dark trying to answer you. Fatboy's answer is right, sacred things are not shared. I can tell you I've never experience seeing a spirit up close and personal so I've never had a chance to give it a try.


    I have felt an evil spirit in a room and I used the name of Jesus and told it to leave, which it did.

    I have had other spiritual experiences which I will not discuss in this open form but they were very real and experienced by the all present.

    I think most Mormons can tell very personal experiences but they hold them sacred in fact if they start to broadcast them it's time to start doubting them.
     
  9. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism.

    Occultism is the hallmark of pagan and "mystery" religions. Mormonism fits into this category because they have the belief (as you yourself just asserted you have) that certain knowledge is not to be shared but rather to be hidden. This is similar to the pagan religions like masonry and witchcraft religions; the belief is that certain spiritual knowledge must be hidden from people who are "profane", which means they are not worthy to know that knowledge. Interestingly, that is exactly what mormons will say, that one must be "worthy" (i.e. not profane) to have certain spiritual knowledge revealed to them.

    Christianity is not an occult religion. Christianity is an open religion, open to absolutely all people. Every Christian Church and Cathedral is open to all - nobody checks who you are when you enter. You can just go into any of them. All Christian rituals and sacraments are done openly for all to come and witness. Baptism, Marriage, Communion, Confirmation, etc. etc. - all done in the open. The message of the Bible - the Gospel - is the opposite of hiding things, it is to promote and evangelize all things of God.

    You can come to NY City, a few blocks from where I work, go into St. Patrick's Cathedral any day, walk all around to all the shrines, walk behind the altar, into the chapels, etc. They have mass every day and you can see it. They do baptisms and other sacraments and tourists mill about as they do it. All is open. All is there for people to be able to see so that they can learn about God and the Gospel. We want people to come to our churches for whatever reason because it all points to God. We believe ALL people are worthy to hear the Gospel and all spiritual knowledge from God's Word because it all supports the Gospel.

    Contrast Christian Churches like St. Patrick's to the Salt Lake City Temple - if I go visit Salt Lake City, I can see it from the outside but I am shut out and not allowed in. I am considered by the mormon religion to be profane, not worthy. They consider some 80-90% of their own members to be profane. They exclude their own members and all people from all other religions from their weddings, baptisms, etc. You won't see that at a Christian ritual. At a Christian wedding, guests can be other denominations, other religions like mormon, hindu, buddhist, muslim, jewish, etc. Nothing is hidden by Christians.

    If the "handshake test" were real in any way and were godly then all mormons should want to share all their experiences. It's convenient when mormons don't want to share that it falls into their category of "sacred" and then they can't or won't talk about it. This is never the case in Christianity.
     
  10. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Can you cite any example documented in the history of the LDS church and its leaders? After all
    These are three grand keys
     
  11. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    The issue is not feelings in the D&C passage I quoted. Rather....

    When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
     
  12. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Still looking for documentation that this grand test has been used.

    ALTERNATE THEORY:

    Joseph Smith inserted this into D&C as a handy way to get out of a jam in the future; but he never needed to use it.
     
  13. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    Since I am a Mormon and told you the sky is blue you would say no it is not. If I told you the sun is rising you would doubt it because I'm a Mormon. If I told you that I had had the experience of testing a spirit or a resurrected body it would do nothing to persuade you that I had or it is a valid test. The question is not a sincere question that is wanting to search for truth. Truth means nothing to them except what you or others perceive as truth. Critics are so closed minded and are convinced that they right not because God has given them a spiritual witness but what critics puny mortal mind wants to believe is true. Doesn't matter if more of Gods word has been revealed. Can't you see that those critical are no different that the Jews at the time of Christ?Thousands of years they had been waiting for the messiah and when he came they didn't recognize him and put him to death. Steve does not want to know if this test is a valid test that has been used even today. He thinks it's a stupid test and a false one. All of you critics need to repent and search for truth where ever it comes from. All Truth is from God. Do you think you have all the truth there is?
     
  14. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Actually, I would like to know that it has been used and examine the evidence/testimony that describes the circumstances.

    I think it is unusual and suspect. That was my initial reaction when reading the D&C 25 years ago.

    Ad hominems do not advance the discussion / debate. Can you cite any historical use of D&C 129, Fatboys?
     
  15. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    For one thing, you are comparing natural experiences to supernatural experiences. Do you really think that I will not believe anything a mormon says simply because he or she is mormon? Do you believe that's true of any of the non-mormons here? Seriously?

    Now you're judging the sincerity of the person asking the question? That is a deflection.

    And to other critics it doesn't matter if God's Word has been revealed to the extent He wants it revealed at this time, they will not accept that. These critics are so closed-minded that and are convinced that they are right not because God has given them a spiritual witness but what these critics puny mortal minds want to believe is true. Doesn't matter if no more of God's Word is to be revealed at this time.

    No, I can't see that those critical of mormonism are no different than the Jews at the time of Christ. You make that claim but you don't back it with any proof. When Steve asks a question you dismiss it as "insincere" and then blame the "critics" for your deflection of the question and try to philosophize that truth is relative to each person so why should you bother to answer.

    And when you say "critics" I'm not sure who you are talking about because you and the mormons are critics as well. You go up to people on the streets or in their homes and criticize them or you support your fellow mormons who do. You are criticizing even in your post above. So why are you criticizing critics when you yourself are a critic? Or is it only critics who are non-mormon that bother you while you are perfectly fine with mormons criticizing everyone else?
     
  16. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but your issues with the Mormon faith include many foundational topics (Trinity/continuing revelation/priesthood/etc). Why are you wasting your time with this fringe issue and ignoring the big ones?
     
  17. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    So the THREE GRAND KEYS are a fringe issue for Mormons?

    And actually this issue doe directly link to the issue of continuing revelation as taught my Mormon Scripture.
     
  18. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Compared to Christ Himself? They are indeed appendages.
    Compared to His atoning sacrifice? They are indeed appendages.
    Compared to the fact that God still speaks? They are indeed appendages.

    You got to start on the foundation and put first things first.

    I would think that you would also put Christ first, and want to talk about Him first. Hence my question why you are wanting to talk about all of this other stuff instead.
     
  19. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Jane, I take it you do not have an answer to either question in my OP.
     
  20. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    I want to put first things first. Your question here is WAAAAY not foundational, and cannot be addressed without first addressing the foundation. Christ comes WAAAY before handshakes- so that is my preference to talk about Him first. Did you seriously want to talk more about handshakes then Christ?
     
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