LDS Handshake Test (D&C 129)

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Compared to Christ Himself? They are indeed appendages.
Compared to His atoning sacrifice? They are indeed appendages.
Compared to the fact that God still speaks? They are indeed appendages.

You got to start on the foundation and put first things first.

I would think that you would also put Christ first, and want to talk about Him first. Hence my question why you are wanting to talk about all of this other stuff instead.
In mormonism though, "his atoning sacrifice" is an appendage to the individual works of a person because each person must do as much as they can to earn salvation and "his atoning sacrifice" only accounts for the part where the individual falls short. It's not a full atonement, it's a contingent and partial atonement.

So really, what you claim to be central to mormonism is itself a mere appendage in that religion.
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,493
27,114
74
Lousianna
✟1,001,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I want to put first things first. Your question here is WAAAAY not foundational, and cannot be addressed without first addressing the foundation. Christ comes WAAAY before handshakes- so that is my preference to talk about Him first. Did you seriously want to talk more about handshakes then Christ?


My questions are in alignment with the purpose of this sub-forum. You do not have to reply, but if you do, please stay on topic.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
My questions are in alignment with the purpose of this sub-forum. You do not have to reply, but if you do, please stay on topic.
Is your greater purpose as a Christian not to bring all men unto Christ? (or at least your beliefs of Him). Your and vast majority of threads on this subforum actually drive us "non-Christians" away from your views, precisely because of the focus on fringe and/or misrepresented things, and ignoring of Christ (the most important). It's a major problem here.

I'm bringing this up with you because you are actually a reasonable person and in a position to do something about it.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
Jane, if you are interested in talking about Jesus feel free to start an Ask a Chaplain thread in the Private section and we can talk without a gallery.
I am not allowed to speak my thoughts in the "Ask a Chaplain" section. No thank you. And talking about Christ is something everyone should do, not confined to some private hidden venue- again, no thank you.

Why do you not want to talk about Christ openly and publicly- where all may speak? I don't understand that! I would LOVE such an opportunity. I don't understand why you, who have that opportunity, continually refuse it and choose to talk about handshakes instead. Why?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,493
27,114
74
Lousianna
✟1,001,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Now back to the Topic if this thread.

images
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
Now back to the Topic if this thread.

images
You are LITERALLY turning down talking about Christ in favor of .....handshakes?

I don't remotely understand, but I won't badger you about it. I'm a disciple of Christ, as Christian, and would be more than happy to talk to you about our Savior.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Hmmm. I can't help but notice that Mormons are ignoring the content of the OP, for instance by this "Can't we talk about Christ instead?" line of posting. You'd think if they want to share their faith with people, there wouldn't be 'off limits' topics like this, which are to be redirected from onto less controversial topics. "Nobody's going to tell you" may be correct, but that doesn't make it right.

I would invite any non-Orthodox or even non-Christian to a liturgy so that they can come and see what happens there, because it might be the catalyst for their interest in Orthodox Christianity, and the time now is when the worshipers of God will worship Him in spirit and truth, because God is seeking such to worship Him. (John 4:23)

Spirit and truth. Not secrecy and diversion. Christ was speaking there to a Samaritan woman who was not sure how to worship God, and the Savior told her. He did not say "No one will tell you", and He did not say "Let's talk about something else instead." So if we are going to talk about Christ, shouldn't we first try to follow Him in how we talk, and drop all this Gnostic, occult stuff?

To that end, here is a nice little cartoon video meant to tell children what is going on in every step of the liturgy, because we do not require some kind of saving knowledge (gnosis) to be given only to a few, but preach Christ openly, and with great joy!


It is better to worship God in spirit and in truth than to engage in strange Masonic-style secret rituals.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
Hmmm. I can't help but notice that Mormons are ignoring the content of the OP
Fatboys and WWA both repeatedly addressed the OP.
for instance by this "Can't we talk about Christ instead?" line of posting. You'd think if they want to share their faith with people, there wouldn't be 'off limits' topics like this, which are to be redirected from onto less controversial topics. "Nobody's going to tell you" may be correct, but that doesn't make it right.
Talking about Christ and having a proper foundation/understanding in Him is prerequisite before these chapters of D&C can be addressed (cause why are based on that foundation).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Fatboys and WWA both repeatedly addressed the OP.

Talking about Christ and having a proper foundation/understanding in Him is prerequisite before these chapters of D&C can be addressed (cause why are based on that foundation).
Fatboys and WWA both dodged the question and you're dodging it here using the occultic reason for it. You're stating that there is prerequisite knowledge which is another way of saying that those who don't have that knowledge are not qualified or worthy for the additional knowledge. This is the occultism (hiding, blocking of information) that I have been pointing out all along.
 
Upvote 0

Ironhold

Member
Feb 14, 2014
7,625
1,463
✟201,967.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Single
When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism.

Matthew 7:6 -
6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

How is this not saying "discretion in who you tell things to"?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jane_Doe
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 7:6 -
6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

How is this not saying "discretion in who you tell things to"?

Yes, but for what reason(s)? St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) says in his first homily on Matthew that it is to not give succor to the enemies of God. He uses the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden as an example:

But let us see what he (the serpent) saith. "What is this that God hath said, thou shalt not eat of every tree?" Assuredly indeed God did not say this but the opposite. See the villany of the Devil. He said that which was not spoken, in order that he might learn what was spoken. What then did the woman? She ought to have silenced him, she ought not to have exchanged a word with him. In foolishness she declared the judgment of the Master. Thereby she afforded the Devil a powerful handle.

See what an evil it is to commit ourselves rashly to our enemies, and to conspirators against us. On this account Christ used to say, "Give not holy things to the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before the swine, lest they turn and rend you." And this happened in the case of Eve. She gave the holy things to the dog, to the swine. He trod under foot the words: and turned and rent the woman.

And St. Cyprian of Carthage (d. 258) explains it in the context of an epistle against his opponent, Demetrianus, characterizing him as a man who had no desire to learn, but instead to simply declare his own views:

I had frequently, Demetrianus, treated with contempt your railing and noisy clamour with sacrilegious mouth and impious words against the one and true God, thinking it more modest and better, silently to scorn the ignorance of a mistaken man, than by speaking to provoke the fury of a senseless one. Neither did I do this without the authority of the divine teaching, since it is written, "Speak not in the ears of a fool, lest when he hear thee he should despise the wisdom of thy words; " and again, "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." And we are, moreover, bidden to keep what is holy within our own knowledge, and not expose it to be trodden down by swine and dogs, since the Lord speaks, saying, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." For when you used often to come to me with the desire of contradicting rather than with the wish to learn, and preferred impudently to insist on your own views, which you shouted with noisy words, to patiently listening to mine, it seethed to me foolish to contend with you; since it would he an easier and slighter thing to restrain the angry waves of a turbulent sea with shouts, than to check your madness by arguments. Assuredly it would be both a vain and ineffectual labour to offer light to a blind man, discourse to a deaf one, or wisdom to a brute; since neither can a brute apprehend, nor can a blind man admit the light, nor can a deaf man hear.
And Pope St. Clement of Rome (d. 99 or 101 AD) invokes the same passage in his First Epistle on Virginity while teaching Christians how they should comport themselves in non-Christian lands:

If, moreover, it chance that we go to a place in which there are no Christians, and it be important for us to stay there a few days, let us be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves; and let us "not be as the foolish, but as the wise," in all the self-restraint of the fear of God, that God may be glorified in everything through our Lord Jesus Christ, through our chaste and holy behaviour. For, "whether we eat, or drink, or do anything else, let us do it as for the glory of God." Let "all those who see us acknowledge that we are a blessed seed," "sons of the living God," in everything-in all our words in shamefastness, in purity, in humility, forasmuch as we do not copy the heathen in anything, nor are as believers like other men, but in everything are estranged from the wicked. And we "do not cast that which is holy before dogs, nor pearls before swine;" but with all possible self-restraint, and with all discretion, and with all fear of God, and with earnestness of mind we praise God. For we do not minister where heathens are drinking and blaspheming in their feasts with words of impurity, because of their wickedness. Therefore do we not sing psalms
to the heathens, nor do we read to them the Scriptures, that we may not be like common singers, either those who play on the lyre, or those who sing with the voice, or like soothsayers, as many are, who follow these practices and do these things, that they may sate themselves with a paltry mouthful of bread, and who, for the sake of a sorry cup of wine, go about "singing the songs of the Lord in the strange land" of the heathen, and doing what is not right.
You could certainly argue that in some of these there is a sense of withholding information from people, which is not generally what is to be done. However, this is because of the context of each of these situations which mandates that for these specific scenarios there is a better way to deal with the reality of the situation. Being open to others does not mean bringing sacred things before those who will blaspheme against God or anything like that, but we cannot therefore be hiding things from people who sincerely seek answers from us. The prince of the apostles St. Peter tells us that we must always have an account for our hope! (1 Peter 3:5)

Anyway, in the first passage, we are dealing with a situation wherein it did more damage to correct than to simply avoid ("she ought not to have exchanged a word him"). In the second, we are dealing with someone who has no true desire to learn anything. In the third, we are in a situation where there is no appropriate way to share the gospel, as we are not to preach in the assemblies of the heathen (think of how inappropriate it would be for a Christian to barge into a mosque and start reciting the gospel there, in the midst of the Muslims' prayers; that would not be appropriate in either religion), and presumably the people would deal with us as common singers, cheapening the message in the process (think of all the discussions that have gone on here where Mormons have pointed out that crosses may be purchased out of 25-cent prize machines or whatever; we both agree that this is not a good state of affairs).

Do any of these fit the thread? If they do, which ones and how do they do so? If not, why not just answer the questions in the OP?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
Do any of these fit the thread? If they do, which ones and how do they do so? If not, why not just answer the questions in the OP?
In regards to this thread: no one is going to tell of an experience where they met an angel of online board. Such a miracle is precious, to be pondered and cherished (a pearl), not paraded around on the pig-pen that is online forums.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Is there something that I'm missing about the OP that makes that an appropriate reply, Jane_Doe? The OP asks if this has been or is being used in the LDS community, and if it hasn't/isn't, why is this message given.

Why is it such an offense to ask or discuss these things? There are many, many stories of angelic (and other...) visits which occurred to the desert fathers, for instance, and I have quoted them many, many times on "the pig-pen that is online forums".

I am afraid that the reticence to write about such things does not display prudence in the context of our current situation (so it is unlike the situations described above, and unlike the situation in which Christ spoke those words originally), but an unwillingness to engage in a discussion on an aspect of Mormonism that might seem rather esoteric and strange in a mixed non-LDS environment like this one, to the potential detriment of Mormonism. (Counterpoint: here's a thread on an LDS forum discussing the matter of angelic visitations -- even obliquely referencing the handshake -- at some length. I guess LDS forums are the exception to internet forums being a pigpen?)
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigDaddy4
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
Is there something that I'm missing about the OP that makes that an appropriate reply, Jane_Doe? The OP asks if this has been or is being used in the LDS community, and if it hasn't/isn't, why is this message given.

We don’t sit around and compare notes about so-and-so’s angelic visit versus this guy’s or that gal’s. No! Such is idea is horribly disrespectful. Something as miraculous as a personal angelic visit is *personal*- a precious pearl to cherish. Not parade around. We don’t fill out survey’s about angelic visits, nor chat about them over casual ice cream—even in LDS specific ice cream parlors (*rollseyes*). Nor is this something you would share with a random church member or with any degree of casualness. It is a precious personal gem to be cherished and prized.

Hence there’s no survey data on to address “how often is this used in the community” questions.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
71
Salem Ut
✟161,549.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Is there something that I'm missing about the OP that makes that an appropriate reply, Jane_Doe? The OP asks if this has been or is being used in the LDS community, and if it hasn't/isn't, why is this message given.

Why is it such an offense to ask or discuss these things? There are many, many stories of angelic (and other...) visits which occurred to the desert fathers, for instance, and I have quoted them many, many times on "the pig-pen that is online forums".

I am afraid that the reticence to write about such things does not display prudence in the context of our current situation (so it is unlike the situations described above, and unlike the situation in which Christ spoke those words originally), but an unwillingness to engage in a discussion on an aspect of Mormonism that might seem rather esoteric and strange in a mixed non-LDS environment like this one, to the potential detriment of Mormonism. (Counterpoint: here's a thread on an LDS forum discussing the matter of angelic visitations -- even obliquely referencing the handshake -- at some length. I guess LDS forums are the exception to internet forums being a pigpen?)

your lack of being able to understand is telling
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
your lack of being able to understand is telling

I don't understand the response in this situation; I do understand the principle being invoked.

Let me put it this way: Jane_Doe called this a 'fringe issue' in post #16 on the other page, and compared it to all kinds of things that are more important than it in post #18.

Given that it is a fringe issue of lesser importance within Mormonism, the recourse to "pearls before swine" strikes me as very odd, particularly given how this context doesn't really reflect what we read in the fathers regarding how they apply the principle behind the verse (e..g, to those who do not want to learn; to those who are unrepentant and still seeking access to the holies of the church; etc.).

It is very odd to have it be simultaneously a 'fringe issue' seemingly unworthy of discussion and at the same time a pearl inappropriate to be discussed in this venue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
I don't understand the response in this situation; I do understand the principle being invoked.


Let me put it this way: Jane_Doe called this a 'fringe issue' in post #16 on the other page, and compared it to all kinds of things that are more important than it in post #18.


Given that it is a fringe issue of lesser importance within Mormonism, the recourse to "pearls before swine" strikes me as very odd, particularly given how this context doesn't really reflect what we read in the fathers regarding how they apply the principle behind the verse (e..g, to those who do not want to learn; to those who are unrepentant and still seeking access to the holies of the church; etc.).


It is very odd to have it be simultaneously a 'fringe issue' seemingly unworthy of discussion and at the same time a pearl inappropriate to be discussed in this venue.
Importance: Christ is above the angels and His importance trumps them, and waaay trumps talking about handshakes. I feel like this is obvious.

Sacredness: still, and personal angelic visit is a miracle- a sacred pearl not to be paraded around. Again, I feel like this is obvious.
 
Upvote 0