hamartia

[BrotherDC]

Dont hide, it devide it.

Would it change your mind? If not then why go there? debate steals Joy.

 

[holyrokker]

Would it change your mind? If not then why go there? debate steals Joy.

I derive quite a bit of joy from debate: none from arguing.

 

[BrotherDC]

I derive quite a bit of joy from debate: none from arguing.

Yes but that sounds like denial, debate has its place but GT is not how its done, Maybe you feel joy but what about folks who are struggling with this? I submit Romans 14, again.



14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]

 

[seeingeyes]

Yes but that sounds like denial, debate has its place but GT is not how its done, Maybe you feel joy but what about folks who are struggling with this? I submit Romans 14, again.

If you are able to discern this verse where others are not, then you are the stronger, and they are the weaker. Not the other way around.

Take a break if you need to, brother.

 

[Cribstyl]

Would it change your mind? If not then why go there? debate steals Joy.

God's word is truth whether we agree or not. The error comes when we add or ignor what is written.
From my possition.......
Propper understanding of Romans 2 should lay this issue to rest.

 

[holyrokker]

Yes but that sounds like denial, debate has its place but GT is not how its done, Maybe you feel joy but what about folks who are struggling with this? I submit Romans 14, again.



14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]

WOW! Maybe it's time for you to relax a bit. You seem to be taking this way too seriously.

 

[Rev Randy]

Ο Θεός ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν.=God have mercy on me a sinner.
Yes, I have missed the mark and seek His direction often.
I thank the OP twofold. One for digging into this and second for the prayer offered before it got too deep.

 

[Cribstyl]

Ο Θεός ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν.=God have mercy on me a sinner.
Yes, I have missed the mark and seek His direction often.
I thank the OP twofold. One for digging into this and second for the prayer offered before it got too deep.

Thanks for reading through Rev.

 

[tzadik]

It's a secret to some people that the definition for Sin is not trangression of the law.
The Biblical terms for sin translated from Greek and Hebrew literally refer to missing a mark or target.

The bible at the beginning, tells that God created man is His image and after His likeness.


The bible did not tell us from the beginning that sin is trangression of a law.


(2Bcontinued) I had to keep my word and start this thread.

We must first understand what "the mark" is...before we can properly determine what sin is transgressing.

So what would you say is "the mark"? [Or God's standard...]

---
While you're at it...look at the root word for Torah (Yarah, yareh - יָרָ&#1492

 

[BrotherDC]

God's word is truth whether we agree or not. The error comes when we add or ignor what is written.
From my possition.......
Propper understanding of Romans 2 should lay this issue to rest.

The NT law is fulfilled in love, the law is good.

 

[BrotherDC]

WOW! Maybe it's time for you to relax a bit. You seem to be taking this way too seriously.

Yes i take love seriously, Romans 14 is about loving each other in the spirit.

 

[Rev Randy]

We must first understand what "the mark" is...before we can properly determine what sin is transgressing.

So what would you say is "the mark"? [Or God's standard...]

---
While you're at it...look at the root word for Torah (Yarah, yareh - יָרָ&#1492

The mark is to be like Christ.

 

[Cribstyl]

We must first understand what "the mark" is...before we can properly determine what sin is transgressing.

So what would you say is "the mark"? [Or God's standard...]

---
While you're at it...look at the root word for Torah (Yarah, yareh - יָרָ&#1492

That's like reinventing a ruler because you dont agree with the scale. Your argument would be different if the bible's definition of sin said; sin is trangression of the law.

The first mention of sin was by God......He explained Cain's potential sin as a lust from with that wants to rule over him. Not a clue about breaking of a law.

 

[tzadik]

The mark is to be like Christ.

But not live like He did, according to His "instruction manual"...

That's an odd oxymoron there don't cha think?

"Live like me, but not at all..."

 

[holyrokker]

The mark is righteousness. We all miss it because we'd rather pursue our own interests. We consider God to be important, but not important enough to really trust Him.

Righteousness is trusting Him.
Faith=Righteousness

 

[tzadik]

That's like reinventing a ruler because you dont agree with the scale. Your argument would be different if the bible's definition of sin said; sin is trangression of the law.

The first mention of sin was by God......He explained Cain's potential sin as a lust from with that wants to rule over him. Not a clue about breaking of a law.

Sin is going against God's Instructions.

Pretty simple and accurate.

God said, don't eat from tree (instruction)
They ate from that tree (broke instruction=) and therefore sinned.

Missing the mark cannot be sin without a mark.
Sin is considered sin, only if God instructs for or against something that we don't or do do...

 

[Cribstyl]

So what would you say is "the mark"? [Or God's standard...]

My best guess would be Holiness.
Holiness is a product of righteousness.
Righteousness is doing what's right. It implies the law when the law is given.
It implies grace through faith when faith is given.

 

[tzadik]

The mark is righteousness. We all miss it because we'd rather pursue our own interests. We consider God to be important, but not important enough to really trust Him.

Righteousness is trusting Him.
Faith=Righteousness

Agreed.

God's righteousness is defined in His Word.

Unrighteousness = Lawlessness (or Instructionlessness).

I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

 

[tzadik]

My best guess would be Holiness.
Holiness is a product of righteousness.
Righteousness is doing the right.

Agreed.

How does God define right and wrong?

 

[tzadik]

My best guess would be Holiness.
Holiness is a product of righteousness.
Righteousness is doing what's right. It implies the law when the law is given.

The word holy = set apart.

God wants us as His people to be set apart from the world.
He gave us all the instruction needed for us to live a set apart life.