gun control

TheBear

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Originally posted by JohnR7
>> you have absolutely no right, whatsoever, to speak for me, my friends, or other people.

I do not speak for any man. I just go by the Bible and I read there that we are to trust in God to defend and protect us. Paul says are weapons are not carnal, but mighty onto God.

I don't care if you have a atomic bomb. The resurrection power of God is MORE powerful. The bomb can only kill. The power of God can raise people up from death.

Psalm 44:5-8
Through You we will push down our enemies;
Through Your name we will trample those who rise up against us.
[6] For I will not trust in my bow,
Nor shall my sword save me.
[7] But You have saved us from our enemies,
And have put to shame those who hated us.
[8] In God we boast all day long,
And praise Your name forever.
Selah

Your whole argument is based on the assumption that there is only one reason people own firearms. Then, you take that premise a step further, by floating high in the clouds, with your lofty, and unrealistic dependence on God alone, for physical protection here on earth.

First, there are many reasons people own firearms. Personal protection is just one of them. Others own firearms for hunting, competition, sporting, collecting, trading, and just plain old fun, recreational shooting.

To your lofty ideas, I can only say that if you are to apply scripture, as you do regarding total dependence on God alone, for physical protection, then, you should not be working, or shopping or seeking medical attention for anything. Because, scripture also tells us that God will feed, clothe, and heal us. Do you work, John? Do you go to the Doctor's, John?

John
 
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StogusMaximus

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Stats I have found.

Probably fewer than 2% of handguns and well under 1% of all guns will ever be involved in a violent crime. Thus, the problem of criminal gun violence is concentrated within a very small subset of gun owners, indicating that gun control aimed at the general population faces a serious needle-in-the-haystack problem.

Taken From:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~karl/firearms/point-blank-summary.html

As of January 1997
Number of Guns in U.S.: - Approximately 230 million, including 75-80 million handguns (BATF)
Gun Owners in U.S.: - 60-65 million, 30-35 million of them own handguns
Firearms Used for Protection: - 11% of firearms owners, 13% of handgun owners
Criminal Misuse of Firearms Yearly: - Less than 0.2% of all firearms, less than 0.4% of handguns

About 99.8% of firearms and more than 99.6% of handguns will not be used to commit violent crimes in any given year.

Fatal accidents as percentages of all deaths nationwide
Of 2,314,690 deaths nationwide in 1996, fatal firearm accidents accounted for 0.05%. Other accidents: motor vehicles (2%), falls (0.6%), poisoning (0.4%), fire (0.2%), drowning (0.2%), suffocation on ingested object (0.1%), and medical mistakes (0.1%).

The Infamous "43 to 1" Statistic
A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill you, a friend or family member than an intruder, or so the story goes. The "43 to 1" figure is the product of a study by Arthur L. Kellerman and Donald T. Reay that was published in the June 1986 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine. The way the statistic is presented, it implies criminals are either disarming homeowners and killing them with their own guns, or that the gun owners are using their guns to slay family members or friends 43 times for every instance where the owner uses a firearm to successfully defend against a criminal intruder. The shootings that make up the actual composition of the "43 to 1" figure however, are actually quite different than this. To quote from the study: "For every time a gun in the home was involved in a 'self-protection' homicide, we noted 1.3 accidental gunshot deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 firearms-related suicides." You read that correctly, out of these 43 deaths, 37 of them (or 87%) were SUICIDES. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is going on here. This is a study purporting to be measuring instances of self defense, not suicides. However, the anti-gun crowd aren't above throwing any figure into the mix in order to make their numbers look better. It apparently doesn't bother them that this information has no relevance to the topic they are purporting to "study".
It has also been established by experience and studies that those determined to commit suicide will do so whether or not a firearm is available. In Japan for example, where firearms ownership is virtually nonexistent, their suicide rate is more than double that of the U.S. per capita. Canada, after imposing severe restrictions on private ownership of handguns, experienced a decrease in gun suicides , but an increase in leaping suicides, with no change in the overall number of suicides in general. So, by removing suicides from the picture (37 of the "43"), our "43 to 1" ratio suddenly drops to 6 to 1. However, this is still not a complete picture of the issue.

First of all, those who quote this "study" don't ever bother to mention that in the cases considered, anyone who was an acquaintance of the shooter, was considered a "friend". In other words, if a person and a next door neighbor get together to complete a drug transaction, which then turns violent and someone is killed, this "study" classifies the incident as a friend killing a friend because they knew each other. It doesn't matter that it was over a drug deal. In addition, the study compares only the number of times a firearm in the home was used to kill an intruder. It ignores instances where firearms are used to wound, scare away or take an intruder into custody without discharging the firearm. In other words, if you shot some lunatic who broke into your house and was about to kill you and your family, but he didn't die -- according to this study, your gun didn't just save your life.

To quote this "study" once again: "Mortality studies such as ours do not include cases where burglars or intruders are wounded or frightened away by the use or display or a firearm. Cases in which would-be intruders may have purposely avoided a house known to be armed are also not identified." The authors go on to admit that the study "did not report the total number or extent of non-lethal firearm injures involving guns kept in the home. A complete determination of firearms risks versus benefits would require that these figures be known." When you consider that 98% of all defensive encounters with firearms end without a shot ever being fired, this seems like a rather large omission. What kind of person publishes a "study" which excludes 98% of all cases, and bases its results on 2%? Apparently, the kind that have a specific agenda that can only be met with some pretty fancy manipulation of the facts.

Based upon data compiled by scholars such as the Florida State University's Gary Kleck, it can be estimated that for every defensive use of a firearm that kills the attacker, 500 or more instances of nonfatal defense occur. This data, combined with the facts surrounding the number of suicides involved, effectively reverses the 43 to 1 ratio to a 6 to 500+ ratio, or about 1 to 83. In other words, a gun in the home is 83 times more likely to save your life, than be used against you. On top of this, Kellerman has recently revised his ludicrous 43 to 1 figure down to a still ridiculous 2.7 to 1, after taking heat from responsible researchers all over the United States. However, even having Kellerman himself retract his ridiculous assertions, has not kept anti-gun organizations from continuing to use the bogus 43 to 1 statistic. Big surprise.
[/quote

Safer With a Doctor or Safer With a Gun?

A recent article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer concerning accidental deaths caused by physicians from research of Laura Key USA
Number of physicians in the US 700,000
Accidental deaths caused /year 120,000
Accidental deaths/physician = 0.171

Number of gun owners in the US 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths/year (all age groups) 1,500
Accidental deaths/gun owner = 0.0000188

Therefore, Doctors are approximately 9000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Taken From:
http://www.code7cafe.com/
 
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StogusMaximus

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Originally posted by Susan
I am in favor of gun control.
Look at the lower rate of violence in countries that impose strict controls on firearms.
Also, in such countries, violent crime is much less in scale. What I mean by that is that you rarely if ever hear about the massacres that have happened almost every few months in the US.
Just a thought.

This is just incorrect.

*********************

Now for the facts. Britain's years of lowest gun crime came in an era when gun controls were virtually non-existent. Increasingly stringent gun controls have been followed by increasing gun crime. England now has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before adopting its repressive laws, yet its politicians have responded to rising crime by further restricting rifles and shotguns. During the past dozen years, handgun-related robbery has risen 200% in Britain, five times as fast as the rise in the U.S.

England tightened their already strict gun laws with the Firearms Act of 1997, making self defense with a firearm completely impossible for ordinary people. How much did crime drop as a result of this? Not at all. In fact, according to the local newspapers, as of Spring 2000, England was being swept by a wave of crime - including plenty of gun crimes.

The London Times published a story on January 16, 2000 that sums up the situation well. The headline read "Killings Rise As 3 Million Illegal Guns Flood Britain". Armed crime rose 10% in 1998 alone. The British experiment with gun prohibition resulted in the same outcome as other forms of prohibition, just as was predicted. Since guns were banned, every criminal wants one and it is very profitable to smuggle them in. Those who are criminally inclined now have unprecedented access to high quality guns at affordable prices.

The Manchester Guardian, on January 14, 1999, lamented the fact that their city is being called "Gunchester". Police sources were quoted as saying that guns had become "almost a fashion accessory" among young criminals on the street. Some gangs are armed with fully automatic weapons and the generally unarmed British police say that they risk confronting teenagers on mountain bikes brandishing machine guns.

The Sunday Express sent a team of reporters out to investigate the problem, and their story of June 20, 1999 said, "In recent months there have been a frightening number of shootings in Britain's major cities, despite new laws banning gun ownership after the Dunblane tragedy. Our investigation established that guns are available though means open to any criminally minded individual."

The government is expected to respond by further tightening the laws on weapons of all sorts. Additional regulations controlling knives and airguns are said to be in the works, although this might be likened to beating a dead horse. The very act of armed self defense is already punishable by law. That right has been handed over to the government in return for a promise of protection.

The recent rise in crime is part of an upward trend that correlates well with the gradual tightening of gun control over the last several decades. The relationship between increasing gun control and rising crime is well documented in a scholarly 1999 report by Olsen and Kopel, "All the Way Down the Slippery Slope - Gun Prohibition in England".

The traditional view of England as a low crime society has also been seriously damaged by the 1998 study titled "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales", which is available from the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics. This report concludes that English crime rates in the period from 1981 to 1996 were actually higher than in the United States due to differences in the way crimes are reported.



JAPAN - Japan's low homicide rate is accompanied by a suicide rate that is approximately twice that of the rate in the U.S. per capita, despite Japan's virtual gun ban. In addition, Japan's low crime rate is attributable to police-state type law enforcement which would be opposed by American's.

AUSTRALIA - In addition, in 1997, the Australian government enacted a law that forced gun owners to surrender personal firearms. According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, more than 640,000 guns (including .22-caliber rifles and shotguns) were destroyed in a program that cost the government more than $500 million. In the year since the ban went into effect, criminal activity Down Under increased dramatically. On Oct. 28, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that homicides were up 3.2%, assaults were up 8.6% and armed robberies were up 44%.


Taken From:
http://www.code7cafe.com/
 
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JohnR7

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>>Your whole argument is based on the assumption that there is only one reason people own firearms.

My arguement is based on the fact that one way or the other, guns kill people. If I have to choose between life and death, I choose life. I am not against guns, I am againt death, it is our final enemy to be destroyed.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

I am against the idea that there is EVER a right time to choose death, when the Bible says to choose life. In as much as it is in my control. If we use a gun to shoot someone, then we have made a choice for death. If we purpose in our heart that in a given situation we would kill someone, then we have choosen death.

I do not want death for people, I want life. My purpose in life is to get people to choose life. Even eternal life that we find in Christ Jesus.
 
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StogusMaximus

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Originally posted by JohnR7
[BI am not really against guns so much as the crazy people who want to own them. I was in the knife business for 15 years and I worked enough gun shows to know how insane many of the gun people are with their cowboy take justice into my own hands mentality. Thanks, JohnR7 [/B]

You are basing your opinions on a select few "Rambo-types". I go to gun shows as well, many of them, and if the people that attend the gun shows is the majority of gun owners in America I would support you, in banning guns and ammo. However, the nuts at the gun shows is the minority not the majority.

The majority of gun owners are average everyday people who enjoy their guns, they use their guns in sport, as a hobby or for that "safe" feeling. The majority of gun owners are responsible and practice gun safety. They keep their guns locked and away from children.

The minority of gun owners, the ones you are talking about are careless with their guns. The minority of gun owners are classified as gun nuts. They have a Rambo complex and believe that they need to have a stock pile of guns just incase "All Hell Breaks Loose". The minority of gun owners are not safe with their guns, the minority of gun owners think that their kids will never touch their guns. The goof ups of minority of gun owners make it harder on the majority of responsible gun owners.

How about we flip the scenario?

How many religious nut bags have we seen? Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate.

What about the religious leaders who have fallen from grace, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, or even the Catholic Priests?

Are all religions and Christians bad because of the actions of a few?

Should the bible be banned because of the number of people who have died in religious wars?

I promise you more people have died because of religion than have ever died because of a gun.
 
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StogusMaximus

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Originally posted by JohnR7
My arguement is based on the fact that one way or the other, guns kill people. If I have to choose between life and death, I choose life. I am not against guns, I am againt death, it is our final enemy to be destroyed.

Cars kill people.
Knives kill people.
Animals kill people.
People kill people.
Rope kills people.
Rocks kill people.
Hammer kill people.
Boards kill people.
Buildings kill people.
Plains kill people.
Water kills people.
Medicine kills people.
Trains kill people.

The list goes on and on. In one way or another people die.
 
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JohnR7

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>> you have absolutely no right, whatsoever, to speak for me, my friends, or other people.

This is a "forum". It is a place of open discussion where people voice their ideas, opinions, attitudes and so forth.

As an American my rights are life, liberity and the pursuit of happyness.
 
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StogusMaximus

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Originally posted by JohnR7
[BAs an American my rights are life, liberity and the pursuit of happyness. [/B]

You are willing to give up those rights one at a time.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

--Benjamin Franklin.
 
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JohnR7

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>>To your lofty ideas, I can only say that if you are to apply scripture, as you do regarding total dependence on God alone, for physical protection, then, you should not be working, or shopping or seeking medical attention for anything. Because, scripture also tells us that God will feed, clothe, and heal us. Do you work, John? Do you go to the Doctor's, John?

>>total dependence on God alone

I would encourage everyone to have total dependance on God alone. He is the only one we can depend upon.

>>Do you work, John? Do you go to the Doctor's, John?

Do I work? No, I have a trust fund that I live off of, that was first set up well over 100 years ago. My grandmother and my mom lived off of the same trust fund.

Do I go to doctors? Not recently, usually I just pray about whatever problem I maybe having. My wife has not been to the doctor sense she had her baby over 4 years ago.

We believe in good doctors and good hospitals, but you should pray about it first, God can use doctors, but doctors are also known to kill people. Sometimes in some situations, their use of drugs amounts to sorcery.
 
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JohnR7

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>>Do you work, John?

I do not want people to get the impression that I am against working. I do not need to work for personal gain, but we are to work to have money to help others who are in need. For example, my wife works to help support her mom, and she is sponsering at least one person to go to school.

My mom was a co founder and president of a organization called HIT, Host for International Travelers. They mostly provided help for graduate students who were here from China and other foreign countries. They had some english classes, social functions and other help they provided. I use to help out to provide free transportation and other services to people here in America who were visiters.

For those who are not yet perfected, there maybe things in this world that they think they want, above and beyond what they need that God is not going to provide for them. Although the Bible says to be content with what we have.
 
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TheBear

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JohnR7,

You cannot have it both ways.

Either you believe people should work for their food, clothing and shelter, or not work at all, and let God provide all those things. And please don't try to side-step the issue with this altruistic agrument. God will provide for others, as well, according to your logic.

Either you believe people should see doctors for medical reasons, or you believe doctors should be avoided at all costs. You mention that some doctors kill. This is true, to a very miniscule extent. You also mention about praying before seeing a doctor. God forbid you should be in an accident or have a heart attack, and need to be rushed to the emergency room.

In all due respect, John, it sounds like you are applying scripture where it is convienient. It also sounds like there are a lot of grey areas and holes in your beliefs. And, you never did comment on my refference to Rom 14:1-6.


John
 
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TheBear

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Like I said before,

Originally posted by TheBear
Gun Control:

- Proper stance
- Proper grip
- Sight allignment
- Breath control
- Squeeze the trigger slowly
- follow through

Do not anticipate the shot. This causes the muzzel to go off target.

:D

John

Any questions? :p

John
 
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JohnR7

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According to the bear, because I do not think we should go around killing people, then his logic is I should not work also. Let me tell you something Mr. Bear, in a way to break your ego and give you some humility before God. Your logic stinks, I am going with the bull on this one. Thanks, JohnR7

Eccles. 9:10a Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
 
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JohnR7

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>>Any questions?

Yep, did you know it is not how well you control your gun, that determines if you go to heaven or not. What makes that determination is how well you control your tongue.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

The trigger finger may put people in the grave, but it's shooting off the mouth that puts people in Heaven or Hell.
 
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JohnR7

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>>It also sounds like there are a lot of grey areas

This is a thread on guns, if you want to start up a thread on these other topics I would be glad to discuss them.

Check out this artical called: Doctors are the third leading cause of death according to the Java.

http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm
 
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TheBear

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The problem we are facing here, is that you equate firearms, exclusively to killing and death. I have stated before, and I'll say it again. There are many different reasons why people own firearms. You also overlook the fact that firearms are used to save lives and thwart criminal activity, more times than not, without a single shot being fired. What does it take, John? How can I get through to you, on this?

You still have not given a reasonable response to my other post, regarding Rom 14:1-6

John




http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=133344#post133344
 
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JohnR7

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>>if the people that attend the gun shows is the majority of gun owners in America I would support you, in banning guns and ammo

I am not against guns, and I am not for banning guns. The Congress does have the right to regulate them though. The militia is to be UNDER the control of the government. They are not suppose to be a bunch of extremists off doing their own thing. The constitution does not say that at all. The theory was that a militia is not a PAID army, so they could not be a hired gun for the government. But that does not mean that they are not to be regulated.

What I am against is people who have already purposed in their heart that they are going to use a gun to kill someone if the situation meets the legal requirements. We will be judged for the intents of our heart. For me that is not being pure and Holy before God. When I stand before God, I do not want any blood on my hands. We are here to grow in the Lord and to help as many people as we can, to draw closer to God. When our work is done, we are only to happy to go onto our reward. Where we are going is far better then where we are at.
 
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JohnR7

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>>You still have not given a reasonable response to my other post, regarding Rom 14:1-6

What are you saying that your weak in the faith and so I should tolorate a intent in your heart to kill people?

>>You also overlook the fact that firearms are used to save lives, more times than not, without a single shot being fired.

How does a gun save a life without a shot being fired? I am sure a gun could save a life if a bear was charging you. But you have to fire a shot.

If your saying that just the threat is enough then NO I am not going to buy that. Any self defense expert will tell you that your defense is only as good as your willingness to use that defense. You many not have to use it, but you must be willing to use whatever defense you decide on.

If I were to use a gun to defend myself, I would not aim to kill, I would aim to make sure that they do not reproduce themselves. We do not need anymore little nuts like them running around in this world. The people themselves I would do all I could to get them saved.
 
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JohnR7

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>>st, there are many reasons people own firearms. Personal protection is just one of them. Others own firearms for hunting, competition, sporting, collecting, trading, and just plain old fun, recreational shooting.

I was talking about using a gun or actually have a gun for self defense. I have no problems with people who own guns for all the things you listed. Although I really do not see any reason to even kill a animal just for sport. If you want dinner, then I guess you have no choice but to kill. Inless you want to give up eating meat, and that would be a whole different topic. That would be covered by the verse you mention in Romans. We should be tolorant of people who do or do not want to eat meat. That does not mean I have to be tolorant of people who make a sport out of killing, just because they get a charge out of killing.
 
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