Gun Control and Evolution - A Quick Gut Check

Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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That is precisely the false premise I was speaking about. Of course Genesis can be trusted, it is divinely inspired Scripture, it's God's holy word.



Who said anything about questioning the Bible? I didn't. Once again, that's the false premise I was speaking about.



In every single page of God's precious and holy word.



I follow Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, who is of the same Being with the Father, truly God with the Father; who was conceived and born of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, who rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

You take the Creation narrative in Genesis 1 literally, I don't.

I imagine that there are parts of the Bible that I take literally that you don't.

-CryptoLutheran
So the time God speaks as being a day was not actually a day? Or did we evolve from some primordial slime that took thousands to millions of years to become human? I do not understand. Why would I believe a man over God or is God lying when He said on the first day etc... Also, when would the Sabbath be if a day was billions of years back during creation? Just curious. I am a young earther not do to my indoctrination into it but from my faith that God is True and every man a liar. No the wine does not turn to His blood nor the bread His flesh. God is against cannibalism and tells us not to drink blood. This would also, make God a liar if the eucharist really represented what some believe.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not really.

This is closer to what he really said;

(CLV) Mt 26:52
Then Jesus is saying to him, "Turn away your sword into its place, for all those taking the sword, by the sword shall perish.


That means something a little bit different doesn't it; especially in the greater context that it was Yahshua who told them to sell their clothes to buy swords in the first place; and that they were surrounded and outnumbered by swordsmen.

Don't bring a sword to a gunfight.

It's a lot stronger and forceful, "all who take up the sword shall be destroyed by the sword" speaks a much stronger anti-sword sentiment. In taking up a sword one shall be destroyed, how is one destroyed by the sword?

It's a lot stronger than merely to die. But to perish, to be destroyed. How does the sword destroy? How does taking up a sword destroy the sword-wielder?

Because to use violence against our fellow man causes ourselves injury. To take a life erodes away at our soul.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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That sounds very spiritual. Unfortunately that's not how understanding the Bible works. It's a deeply flawed misunderstanding of

"But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you.

I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are you going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see Me no longer; concerning judgment; because the ruler of this world is judged.

I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.
" - John 16:4-15

The Holy Spirit leads who into all truth? You and me? No.

It matters who Jesus is talking to here, Jesus isn't talking to you or to me. Because those very people Jesus was speaking to would go on to preach the Gospel, proclaiming the word of God to the nations. And then we were left with a record of their teachings, their writings preserved and read throughout the churches as Scripture. What we call the New Testament.

And they they tell us how to persevere in the faith: Holding firm to the teachings we received from the beginning and not being led astray into error.

That is why Bible study is actual work, it is serious work of applying good hermeneutical skill and exegesis. God doesn't just beam truth into our brains, but rather He calls us to be members of the whole Body, abide in Christ, abiding in grace, hearing the word preached, receiving the Sacraments, and sharing life together in the fellowship of this holy Christian Church; holding firm to the faith once and for all delivered, and which we receive, and continually confess.

-CryptoLutheran
So how do you know what you believe is true? Who says that it is? The Spirit of God will no longer lead Jesus' followers into Truth? I cannot believe that knoweledge of a book leads to a personal relationship with Jesus. The Scribes and Pharisees new the scripture but did not know The Truth when it was right in front of them. There are many people who may know the Bible and not know the Salvation found in Christ. So, I ask again where does your faith come from is it by knowing the word and study w/o the Spirit guiding you? Then how do you know it is Truth? Where is the check point for your truth? God does not beam it into our brains the Spirit reveals it to our Hearts.
 
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It's a lot stronger and forceful, "all who take up the sword shall be destroyed by the sword" speaks a much stronger anti-sword sentiment. In taking up a sword one shall be destroyed, how is one destroyed by the sword?

It's a lot stronger than merely to die. But to perish, to be destroyed. How does the sword destroy? How does taking up a sword destroy the sword-wielder?

Because to use violence against our fellow man causes ourselves injury. To take a life erodes away at our soul.

-CryptoLutheran
Your inferences are built on a faulty premise.

First, again, it was Yahshua who told them to buy swords in the first place.

Second he told them to put their swords back in to their places (obviously on their persons), not to discard them.

Third the word 'up" is not found in the Greek. The Greek simply says "taking."

Since Yahshua told them to put their swords back; it makes more sense to infer that they had taken them out.

This reference refers to this particular situation. Believe me. I have taken out swords, butcher knives, and blades of vast varieties, many times; and I have lived to tell you about it.
 
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Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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It's a lot stronger and forceful, "all who take up the sword shall be destroyed by the sword" speaks a much stronger anti-sword sentiment. In taking up a sword one shall be destroyed, how is one destroyed by the sword?

It's a lot stronger than merely to die. But to perish, to be destroyed. How does the sword destroy? How does taking up a sword destroy the sword-wielder?

Because to use violence against our fellow man causes ourselves injury. To take a life erodes away at our soul.

-CryptoLutheran
We are also told that we can defend our household
 
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ViaCrucis

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So the time God speaks as being a day was not actually a day?

They are days. But I believe the days are intended as a literary framing device. This is made clear, I believe, by the use of the refrain "It was evening and then morning". For one, the terms "evening" and "morning" don't make any sense without a sun to illuminate one side of the earth's surface as it spins on its axis.

Trying to make the days of creation make sense scientifically makes a mess of what Scripture says and also a mess of science.

But what does make sense to me is that the days of creation describe, in poetic language, the good purpose and orderliness of His creation.

Three days of creating spaces, and three days of filling those spaces with things to inhabit them. Creating a parallel of days:

Day 1: the separation of light and dark; Day 4: the creation of sun, moon, and stars to inhabit day and night.
Day 2: the separation of waters above and below; Day 5: the creation of flying and swimming creatures.
Day 3: the separation of dry land from the waters below; Day 6: the creation of land dwelling creatures, and in particular human beings.

Genesis ch. 1 isn't meant to be read "scientifically", but as poetry. The things Genesis 1 says are not science, but theology.

God brings order out of disorder, for the earth in the beginning we read was "a formless waste" in a primordial ocean of chaos above which the Holy Spirit hovered. Then God brings order out of disorder, "Let there be light and there was light".

And to finish His great work, He makes creatures to bear His image, to care for and rule compassionately over this creation: Human beings.

When we also read this as a temple narrative, it makes sense. God is building His temple, for He will inhabit the heavens and the earth (c.f. "The heavens are Your throne, and the earth is Your footstool"). What is the final act in temple-building? One places the image in the temple, God created us to be His image-bearers and He also tasked us with being the priests to care for His temple and offer Him worship.

We were created to worship, to bear God's image, to reflect God to the rest of creation and to reflect all creation back to God as praise.

But our fall has marred the Divine Image, our priestly purpose has been distorted, we turned away from true worship to false worship. Seeing the glory of God in nature we did not worship the Creator, St. Paul says in Romans 1, but worshiped created things. In Christ, however, God is restoring the Divine Image, and is establishing His Church as a holy temple, and has made and is making us "a kingdom of priests". The work He began through Abraham and Moses, fulfilled in Christ and working now through the Church (see: Exodus 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6)

Genesis 1 is brilliant. It is theologically dense, and when read in light of the rest of Holy Scripture shines all the brighter. But it was never meant to be read as a "science" text.

Or did we evolve from some primordial slime that took thousands to millions of years to become human?

While there is at this point no knowledge about what naturalistic causes gave rise to the first living cell or proto-cell; it is true that the common ancestor to all living things on this planet lived a few billion years ago in the ocean. We didn't evolve from "some primordial slime", but we did evolve from our ancestors, who evolved from their ancestors, etc.

I do not understand. Why would I believe a man over God or is God lying when He said on the first day etc... Also, when would the Sabbath be if a day was billions of years back during creation? Just curious. I am a young earther not do to my indoctrination into it but from my faith that God is True and every man a liar.

Why do you equate something not being literal as being a lie?

Also, you put plenty of trust in human knowledge for all manner of things. Do you drive a car? Do you trust that internal combustion works? Do you use a microwave oven? How about a refridgerator? How about the computer or smart phone you are posting messages on the internet with?

You make use of human knowledge all the time.

No the wine does not turn to His blood nor the bread His flesh. God is against cannibalism and tells us not to drink blood. This would also, make God a liar if the eucharist really represented what some believe.

But Jesus said "This is My body" and "You must eat My flesh and drink My blood". Are you saying Jesus is a liar?

If your argument is that by not believing the words of Genesis 1 are literal one calls God a liar, how are you not calling God a liar when Jesus says "This is My body" and you say it's not His body?

Now, I'm not saying you are calling God a liar. What I am saying is how can you accuse someone else of calling God a liar and not be guilty of the same?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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We are also told that we can defend our household

Now, I'm not going to deny that we can defend our family and loved ones.

But you must have a place in Scripture in mind when you say this; but I must admit I can't think of anything the Lord or the Apostles said speaks to this.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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We are also told that we can defend our household
So all those who killed during war should not have done so? The fall of man allowed evil to reign in this world should we not raise up arms to defend against such evil? If I were to kill a person who barged into my house and threatened my family God would look down upon me? All I did was protect what He blessed me with?
 
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Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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They are days. But I believe the days are intended as a literary framing device. This is made clear, I believe, by the use of the refrain "It was evening and then morning". For one, the terms "evening" and "morning" don't make any sense without a sun to illuminate one side of the earth's surface as it spins on its axis.

Trying to make the days of creation make sense scientifically makes a mess of what Scripture says and also a mess of science.

But what does make sense to me is that the days of creation describe, in poetic language, the good purpose and orderliness of His creation.

Three days of creating spaces, and three days of filling those spaces with things to inhabit them. Creating a parallel of days:

Day 1: the separation of light and dark; Day 4: the creation of sun, moon, and stars to inhabit day and night.
Day 2: the separation of waters above and below; Day 5: the creation of flying and swimming creatures.
Day 3: the separation of dry land from the waters below; Day 6: the creation of land dwelling creatures, and in particular human beings.

Genesis ch. 1 isn't meant to be read "scientifically", but as poetry. The things Genesis 1 says are not science, but theology.

God brings order out of disorder, for the earth in the beginning we read was "a formless waste" in a primordial ocean of chaos above which the Holy Spirit hovered. Then God brings order out of disorder, "Let there be light and there was light".

And to finish His great work, He makes creatures to bear His image, to care for and rule compassionately over this creation: Human beings.

When we also read this as a temple narrative, it makes sense. God is building His temple, for He will inhabit the heavens and the earth (c.f. "The heavens are Your throne, and the earth is Your footstool"). What is the final act in temple-building? One places the image in the temple, God created us to be His image-bearers and He also tasked us with being the priests to care for His temple and offer Him worship.

We were created to worship, to bear God's image, to reflect God to the rest of creation and to reflect all creation back to God as praise.

But our fall has marred the Divine Image, our priestly purpose has been distorted, we turned away from true worship to false worship. Seeing the glory of God in nature we did not worship the Creator, St. Paul says in Romans 1, but worshiped created things. In Christ, however, God is restoring the Divine Image, and is establishing His Church as a holy temple, and has made and is making us "a kingdom of priests". The work He began through Abraham and Moses, fulfilled in Christ and working now through the Church (see: Exodus 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6)

Genesis 1 is brilliant. It is theologically dense, and when read in light of the rest of Holy Scripture shines all the brighter. But it was never meant to be read as a "science" text.



While there is at this point no knowledge about what naturalistic causes gave rise to the first living cell or proto-cell; it is true that the common ancestor to all living things on this planet lived a few billion years ago in the ocean. We didn't evolve from "some primordial slime", but we did evolve from our ancestors, who evolved from their ancestors, etc.



Why do you equate something not being literal as being a lie?

Also, you put plenty of trust in human knowledge for all manner of things. Do you drive a car? Do you trust that internal combustion works? Do you use a microwave oven? How about a refridgerator? How about the computer or smart phone you are posting messages on the internet with?

You make use of human knowledge all the time.



But Jesus said "This is My body" and "You must eat My flesh and drink My blood". Are you saying Jesus is a liar?

If your argument is that by not believing the words of Genesis 1 are literal one calls God a liar, how are you not calling God a liar when Jesus says "This is My body" and you say it's not His body?

Now, I'm not saying you are calling God a liar. What I am saying is how can you accuse someone else of calling God a liar and not be guilty of the same?

-CryptoLutheran
So eating human flesh and drinking blood doesn't go against the Word of God? God does not speak anything about believing in Genesis being a sin. Where as cannibalism is sin. Jesus was fully man and fully God the second Adam who did not fail. He was the drink offering poured out for us. that being wine not blood poured out onto the ground, He was the lamb slain for our unrighteousness but, he was not consumed as a passover lamb would have been, He was buried and rose from the dead after preaching in Abraham's bussom. Thus establishing a new covenant where no longer we would have to sacrifice to atone. for sin. But allow Him to enter our hearts and be circumcised of heart allowing His life blood to flow in us. We do not drink blood,for it is not what one consumes that defiles or makes but what is in the heart. none of the disciples drank Jesus' blood. They drank the wine offering and ate the bread of life not Christs' flesh.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So all those who killed during war should not have done so? The fall of man allowed evil to reign in this world should we not raise up arms to defend against such evil? If I were to kill a person who barged into my house and threatened my family God would look down upon me? All I did was protect what He blessed me with?

Is this addressed to me? You'll note that I didn't say you can't defend your family/household.

You claimed Scripture says we are to do so, I asked where.

As for this question: "So all those who killed during war should not have done so?"

My answer: I think there are valid arguments to be made for Just War Theory.

The chief operating principle should be that yes, war is bad and killing is bad. When occasion arises where it becomes necessary to take up arms to prevent greater evil, that is arguably justified. But we ought to make a huge distinction between a justified use of violence to prevent greater evil and viewing war and killing as morally righteous when done in the name of the State.

Let's take the American War for Independence as an example. From a human vantage point, the colonists were seeking independence to overthrow what they perceived as the tyranny of the British Crown, they wanted self-rule for themselves and were willing to kill to achieve it. The British, on the other hand, sought to maintain the claims of the Crown over the colonies, as the colonies were regarded as the rightful possession of Britain and the Crown.

Try to be objective for a moment, set aside nationalistic sentiment, from a purely objective perspective was either side "the good guys"? Or did both sides believe instead in the justness of their cause?

Now let's hypothesize for a moment, let's say the indigenous people who live within the borders of the United States were to desire self-rule, regarding American claim over their ancestral lands a tyranny. And they took up arms of rebellion against the US government. Their desire is self-rule and independence and freedom from tyranny; the US government would in turn view the lands conquered and settled within the last two centuries the rightful property of the United States and would fight to hold onto those lands.

If you support the colonist's right for independence and self governing, would you also support the indigenous people's the same? Would you argue that the British were a legitimate tyranny, but deny that the United States as not a legitimate tyranny?

What I am really trying to get at is this: We often determine who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are in an armed conflict entirely based on the arbitrary circumstance of nationalistic identity. Where we were born.

In the Seven Years War there were a number of players, but let's just consider the British and French. Who were the good guys and who were the bad guys?

The simple reality is that there is most often, in most conflicts, neither a righteous cause nor a moral side; instead wars are fought over land and resources; and it is merely the sinful lusts of men desiring power.

Sometimes, however, a conflict does arise where there is a clear and present danger. At the risk of employing Godwin's Law, the rise of the Nazis in Germany, and the Nazi war machine which desired "lebensraum" for Germanic peoples, involving the conquest of territory and the extermination of Jews, Slavs, Romani, and other "undesirable" people was a clear and present danger for the whole world. Hitler represented a rare specimen of immense evil that demanded action--because inaction would be the same as collusion.

It's why a pacifist, like Pastor Bonhoeffer, was willing to involve himself in the plot to assassinate Hitler. Which is how he ultimately earned his martyr's crown.

But that is the exception, not the rule.

Not every armed conflict is a justified one. Not every war is a justified war. Most wars are unjustified. Most conflicts are nations rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom. And we are oft to excuse "our side" simply because it's our own. We can see this even in the United States today in the lingering feelings between North and South over the Civil War. Robert E. Lee was a traitor who fought for the evil cause of the enslavement of human beings, and yet he is a celebrated general in the American South; because in the South the narrative of the war was changed during the Jim Crow era to be about "States' Rights" rather than the perpetuation of the institution slavery (the given cause according the states which sought to leave the Union and which sparked the war in the first place).

As a "Yankee" the narrative of the American Civil War seems obvious: One side split from the Union because it believed that holding human beings of African descent as slaves because of the innate "inferiority" of black people was a sovereign right; the other side sought to maintain the Union, and eventually made the war about the abolition of slavery a driving factor. But a person from Dixie may view things rather differently. I therefore might argue that the war became justified when the cause was about ending the evil institution of slavery, and the South's cause was inherently and innately evil. But would the conflict be justified if it was merely about maintaining the Union, after all Lincoln also suspended habeas corpus and upended the First Amendment right to freedom of the press--that's not a good look. But compared to the evil abomination of slavery, it seems significantly less evil.

And so, at this point, I'd really just be going in circles and repeating myself.

I consider the nature of war to be an intrinsic evil. But there may arise circumstance where the use of violence may be justified for the purpose of curbing and preventing greater evil.

A Christian may, therefore, by circumstance have to do the unthinkable: Take up arms. But to imagine that the taking of human life could ever be regarded as itself righteous is a deep rejection of the core doctrines of the Christian faith and a deep violation of God's Law, for He commands as paramount above all things that we love our neighbor as ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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So eating human flesh and drinking blood doesn't go against the Word of God?

God does not speak anything about believing in Genesis being a sin. Where as cannibalism is sin. Jesus was fully man and fully God the second Adam who did not fail. He was the drink offering poured out for us. that being wine not blood poured out onto the ground, He was the lamb slain for our unrighteousness but, he was not consumed as a passover lamb would have been, He was buried and rose from the dead after preaching in Abraham's bussom. Thus establishing a new covenant where no longer we would have to sacrifice to atone. for sin. But allow Him to enter our hearts and be circumcised of heart allowing His life blood to flow in us. We do not drink blood,for it is not what one consumes that defiles or makes but what is in the heart. none of the disciples drank Jesus' blood. They drank the wine offering and ate the bread of life not Christs' flesh.

I'm not interested in debating the doctrine of the Real Presence here. We can do that in another thread if you want.

But I bring it up merely to demonstrate the point that it is hypocritical to assert one person denies God's word for not taking something literally and then go on to take another thing non-literally.

It doesn't matter how you try and justify your position on not taking Jesus literally here, you're still not taking Him literally when He says "This is My body". So clearly you believe it is okay to not take the Bible literally here, and you don't view this as a denial of God's word.

So why can't you extend the same charity to others?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ZephBonkerer

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Many Christian liberals support increased Gun Control and even an all out gun ban because "If we can save just ONE life, then it's all worth it" - yet these same liberals are perfectly happy to stand by and allow the teaching of evolution to destroy a young person's eternal life by convincing them there's no God and no Judgment Day.

So, in the same way, would it not be equally worth it to ban the teaching of evolution across the board if it will save just ONE person from ending up eternally lost?

You are right to reject the "If we can save just ONE life" as a valid means for evaluating some policy. But I would not have used the theory of Evolution as a counter-argument.

A better approach: Suppose we could save just ONE life with Option A, but could save ten lives with Option B? Or suppose we could save just ONE life with Option C, but Option C would cost two lives.

Whenever someone comes out in favor of some gun control measure, I would ask them what this policy is supposed to accomplish. Arguments in favor of more gun control are often based less on substance than on emotion. In my experience, people who favor these measures don't really bother to consider the real-life ramifications of these policies.

I've even asked such people if they have a problem with self-defense - when I do, they usually seem uncomfortable answering that question. Anyone who has even a basic understanding of Scripture and the human condition should know full well that we don't live in the Land of Rainbows and Unicorns.
 
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Phoneman-777

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You are right to reject the "If we can save just ONE life" as a valid means for evaluating some policy. But I would not have used the theory of Evolution as a counter-argument.

A better approach: Suppose we could save just ONE life with Option A, but could save ten lives with Option B? Or suppose we could save just ONE life with Option C, but Option C would cost two lives.

Whenever someone comes out in favor of some gun control measure, I would ask them what this policy is supposed to accomplish. Arguments in favor of more gun control are often based less on substance than on emotion. In my experience, people who favor these measures don't really bother to consider the real-life ramifications of these policies.

I've even asked such people if they have a problem with self-defense - when I do, they usually seem uncomfortable answering that question. Anyone who has even a basic understanding of Scripture and the human condition should know full well that we don't live in the Land of Rainbows and Unicorns.
I think you'll agree that since criminals don't obey laws, Gun Control laws automatically benefit criminals and endanger the rest of us. Background checks are useless except to help the Feds keep better tabs on the law abiding, while thugs obtain guns illegally from the trunks of cars, theft, etc.

We have cultivated a society of morons and emotional basket cases - the absolute MOST UNQUALIFIED to give opinions on anything, let alone dictate to the rest of us public policy and Biblical truth.

I wonder how many read this OP and discover how bankrupt their relationship with Christ truly is, seeing that they're more interested in saving the temporal life of a person via Gun Control laws but wholly unconcerned about those who lose eternal life via the teaching of the lie of evolution.
 
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Phoneman-777

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I consider that scenario, at face value, absurd.
I read this and disregarded the rest of your post. Anyone who believes that the teaching of evolution has never robbed a believer of his faith, they're simply going out of their way to blind themselves for the sake of ideology - blind ideology.
 
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