Guilty: Verdict reached in trial of Derek Chauvin, ex-officer accused in George Floyd's death

[BNR32FAN]

Chauvin was probably putting a majority of weight on his other leg, leaving even less weight on Floyd's neck.

I completely supported everything Chauvin did up to the point where he didn’t stop to check Floyd when the other officer said that he couldn’t find a pulse. At that point Chauvin should’ve immediately checked Floyd and administered CPR if necessary. Unfortunately he didn’t move from his position for 2 minutes after the officer said he couldn’t find a pulse and for that I say that Chauvin is responsible for Floyd’s death. I don’t know a whole lot about the charges for a situation like this. I don’t think this would fall into a murder category because I don’t see any motive to support it. I think this should fall under an involuntary manslaughter charge although I could be mistaken. I don’t believe that Floyd’s death was intentional, I think it was a result of Chauvin underestimating the situation.

 

[Yttrium]

I completely supported everything Chauvin did up to the point where he didn’t stop to check Floyd when the other officer said that he couldn’t find a pulse. At that point Chauvin should’ve immediately checked Floyd and administered CPR if necessary. Unfortunately he didn’t move from his position for 2 minutes after the officer said he couldn’t find a pulse and for that I say that Chauvin is responsible for Floyd’s death. I don’t know a whole lot about the charges for a situation like this. I don’t think this would fall into a murder category because I don’t see any motive to support it. I think this should fall under an involuntary manslaughter charge although I could be mistaken. I don’t believe that Floyd’s death was intentional, I think it was a result of Chauvin underestimating the situation.

It turns out that in Minnesota, Murder 3 and even Murder 2 can apply when death is unintentional. However, Murder 2 would still need to demonstrate intent to do bodily harm while the victim is restrained, and I doubt the jury would be comfortable coming to that conclusion.

 

[SummerMadness]

Chauvin Trial: Medical Expert Says George Floyd Died from a Lack of Oxygen

Dr. Martin Tobin, a pulmonary specialist who works in critical care, testified Thursday that George Floyd died from a lack of oxygen, bolstering the prosecution's argument that former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin caused Floyd's death last May.

Tobin is appearing as an expert witness for the prosecution. He said the state asked him to review documents and videos depicting the circumstances of Floyd's death. Tobin watched some of those videos hundreds of times, he said.

Dr. Martin J. Tobin, a pulmonologist, says shallow breathing led to George Floyd's death.

Dr. Martin J. Tobin, a pulmonologist and critical care physician from the Chicago area, was the first witness prosecutors called to the stand in the Derek Chauvin trial on Thursday.

When prosecutors asked if he had formed a medical opinion on what had caused George Floyd's death, Dr. Tobin said, "Mr. Floyd died from a low level of oxygen, and this caused damage to his brain that we see, and it also caused a P.E.A. arrhythmia because his heart stopped," referring to pulseless electrical activity, or cardiac arrest.

The low level of oxygen was caused by "shallow breathing," he said. Mr. Floyd's prone position and being handcuffed and Mr. Chauvin's knee on his neck and back, he said, contributed to the shallow breathing.

Dr. Tobin added that the position in which Mr. Floyd was handcuffed, with the force of the officers compounding with the asphalt street, ultimately prevented him from being able to breathe fully.

"It's how the handcuffs are being held, how they're being pushed, where they're being pushed that totally interfere with central features of how we breathe," he said.

Mr. Chauvin's knee placed on the left side of his chest would have limited the amount of air being able to enter the left lung, Dr. Tobin said, as if "a surgeon had gone in and removed the lung," he said./QUOTE]

 

[tall73]

Remember, we're not talking about strangulation here, we're talking about asphyxiation.

I think the defense is working towards reasonable doubt regarding the reasons for the asphyxiation.

From defense attorney Nelson’s cross examination of Dr. Langenfeld:


Nelson: And there are many things that cause hypoxia that would still be considered asphyxiation, agreed?

Langenfeld: Correct.

Nelson: Drug use, certain drugs can cause Hypoxia, agreed?

Langenfeld: Yes

Nelson: Specifically, Fentanyl?

Langenfeld: That's correct

Nelson: How about Methamphetamines?

Langenfeld: It can.

Nelson: Combination of the two?

Langenfeld: Yes.

 

[Yttrium]

I think the defense is working towards reasonable doubt regarding the reasons for the asphyxiation.

From defense attorney Nelson’s cross examination of Dr. Langenfeld:


Nelson: And there are many things that cause hypoxia that would still be considered asphyxiation, agreed?

Langenfeld: Correct.

Nelson: Drug use, certain drugs can cause Hypoxia, agreed?

Langenfeld: Yes

Nelson: Specifically, Fentanyl?

Langenfeld: That's correct

Nelson: How about Methamphetamines?

Langenfeld: It can.

Nelson: Combination of the two?

Langenfeld: Yes.

Uh huh. However, is it reasonable that Floyd took the pills just before getting arrested and coincidentally died due to that at the same time he was under restraint that could easily have caused asphyxiation? The chances of death from the pills alone would be pretty small. They could have been a contributing factor in addition to the chest compression, but that would still put Chauvin at fault.

 

[tall73]

Uh huh. However, is it reasonable that Floyd took the pills just before getting arrested and coincidentally died due to that at the same time he was under restraint that could easily have caused asphyxiation? The chances of death from the pills alone would be pretty small. They could have been a contributing factor in addition to the chest compression, but that would still put Chauvin at fault.

I think the state expert witness who testified regarding the effects of the hold, and the respiratory rate today was quite effective. So the defense is going to have to counter some of that with their own expert or it will undercut the progress they made so far.

However, even having stated that, the defense has the easier job, since they only need reasonable doubt.

a. The state witness noted that after ingesting fentanyl the peak effect would be within 5 minutes or so. Therefore the timing would not be coincidental. The question is whether the fentanyl had an impact, and that will largely come down to the experts giving their view of the physical evidence and video.

b. Because intent is the issue for the more serious charges they have to prove that the officer intended harm. If the drugs, artery condition, hyper tension, tumor (chance of adrenaline impact), after effects of Covid, etc. were seen to play a role in what happened then he may not be seen to be able to anticipate this.

c. The initial statement that he couldn't breathe was made while he was still in the car before the position was initiated. That alone could be enough for some to have reasonable doubt as to the testimony presented that his breathing was not impacted by drugs or other conditions.

 

[FireDragon76]

Police chief testifies that restraint of George Floyd 'absolutely' violated policy, ethics of department

If it violated policy, then that doesn't necessarily support the notion that George Floyd's death was about "systemic racism".

 

[Yttrium]

a. The state witness noted that after ingesting fentanyl the peak effect would be within 5 minutes or so. Therefore the timing would not be coincidental. The question is whether the fentanyl had an impact, and that will largely come down to the experts giving their view of the physical evidence and video.

The timing would be coincidental, because Floyd would have to take the fentanyl just before he was arrested. Also, Floyd showed no symptoms of fentanyl, such as rapid breathing and complaints of chest pains, as the expert noted.

b. Because intent is the issue for the more serious charges they have to prove that the officer intended harm. If the drugs, artery condition, hyper tension, tumor (chance of adrenaline impact), after effects of Covid, etc. were seen to play a role in what happened then he may not be seen to be able to anticipate this.

I think there is serious question whether Chauvin intended harm, making murder 2 a tough sell. As for murder 3:

"Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years."

It's not really intent to do harm that's the issue here, it's doing something dangerously and callously (which very well could cause harm, but not necessarily).

c. The initial statement that he couldn't breathe was made while he was still in the car before the position was initiated. That alone could be enough for some to have reasonable doubt as to the testimony presented that his breathing was not impacted by drugs or other conditions.

From what I could tell, he claimed he was having trouble breathing in the car due to claustrophobia.

 

[tall73]

Floyd would have to take the fentanyl just before he was arrested. Also, Floyd showed no symptoms of fentanyl, such as rapid breathing and complaints of chest pains, as the expert noted.

It is a possibility that he took it immediately before. Especially given the partial pill with his DNA in the squad car, and the report of foaming at the mouth.

https://www.startribune.com/witness...d-fentanyl-meth-george-floyd-s-dna/600043109/


But he clearly had used fentanyl as he still had a sizable amount of non-metabolized drug still in his system. Even the state witness acknowledged that the metabolized drug could have been taken earlier and the non-metabolized could have been more recent.

The defense indicated that they had information that the drugs were taken right before police arrived, though now that may not come to light as the witness has indicated he will invoke the right to to not self-incriminate.
Man in car with George Floyd the day he died doesn't want to testify in Derek Chauvin trial

I think there is serious question whether Chauvin intended harm, making murder 2 a tough sell. As for murder 3:

"Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years."

It's not really intent to do harm that's the issue here, it's doing something dangerously and callously (which very well could cause harm, but not necessarily).

I think they would have a hard time making that case. This is not parallel to examples usually falling under the statute.

What is 3rd-degree murder and 2nd-degree manslaughter in Minnesota? | kare11.com

- hitting a by-stander while performing a drive-by
- dealing drugs to someone who then dies
- Driving through a crowded sidewalk

Those acts of their nature are such that they could result in the loss of human life.

Stiger, a use of force witness, indicated that the particular hold can be used in reasonable ways, but indicated he did not think it was used in a reasonable way here. So it is not the maneuver itself here that is at issue, but the way it was applied. This differs from the acts above that are seen to be unreasonable by their nature, not just the specific application.

And even in how it was applied it does not show disregard for human life, but rather in a few ways showed regard for human life.

Stiger agreed he could have used a taser, which would have been a higher level of force.

An outside expert testified Wednesday that Derek Chauvin could have used a Taser on George Floyd while he was resisting arrest based on the use-of-force continuum employed by Minneapolis police.

And he agreed they did not use hobble restraint device, again a decision not to use a higher degree of force.

The officers called EMS due to injury to mouth, again indicating that there was no disregard of life, and no desire to cause harm.

They then shortly thereafter they re-assessed and asked for a quicker response from EMS due to concern over the demeanor and whether it might be a reaction to substances.

The EMS response was particularly to avoid excited delirium.

Lane told Chauvin he was worried about “excited delirium,” citing a term used by medical examiners to describe the sudden in-custody death of people who may be under the influence of drugs or in an agitated state. “That’s why we got the ambulance coming,” Chauvin said.

They continued to note he was talking, which they took to mean he was still breathing (yes that works until it doesn't as the witness today mentioned). But it does indicate they were thinking he was still responsive.

When Chauvin was informed there was no pulse he reacted in a surprised way.

When an off-duty firefighter on the scene pressed the officers to check Floyd’s pulse, Kueng couldn’t find one. “Huh?” Chauvin replied, according to the transcript.

So there are a number of factors mitigating against the idea of disregard for life or callousness.

Now whether he is convicted on manslaughter due to negligence is a different story. But I don't think they will make murder 3 stick.

From what I could tell, he claimed he was having trouble breathing in the car due to claustrophobia.

It didn't sound like it was just claustrophobia, and there were a number of factors that were difficult to interpret. They kept asking about substances because of his unusual behavior. And they suggested his resistance was part of the problem of breathing.

It’s unclear whether they were attempting to assist, but at one point, an unknown officer sought to intervene, according to the transcripts. “Man, you’re going to die of a heart attack,” one of the officers told Floyd. “Just get in the car.”

Also, Floyd himself referenced the recent case of COVID as part of his concern.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...050efe-c15c-11ea-b178-bb7b05b94af1_story.html

“I just had COVID man, don’t want to go back to that.”

“I just had COVID, man,” Floyd said. “I can’t breathe. I can’t breathe. Please one of you listen to me.”

 

[SummerMadness]

Police officers, not drugs, caused George Floyd’s death, a pathologist testifies.

A forensic pathologist testified on Friday that George Floyd had primarily died of low oxygen, also called asphyxia, which she said had been caused by Derek Chauvin and the other police officers who pressed him to the ground.

The testimony from Dr. Lindsey C. Thomas further supported prosecutors’ arguments that Mr. Chauvin, the former Minneapolis police officer who is on trial for murder, killed Mr. Floyd by kneeling on him for more than nine minutes.

 

[KarateCowboy]

This almost made me cry today. I teared up a little.

I've been doing BJJ since 2011. I've trained hundreds of hours and applied and received thousands of choke holds. I'd never seen the video until now, so I assumed that Floyd was on his back when Chauvin was kneeling on him. After all, that's the only way it could have killed him.

Then I saw the body camera footage.

My heart sank and I started to tear up as I realized that this is why America burned to the ground. This is why more than thirty people like David Dorne died in the most destructive riots in American history. Because of something so abjectly absurd and ignorant.

You couldn't get a tap from that on the mat, much less kill a man, with a knee in that position. Much less 140 lb Chauvin on 230 lb Floyd. I'm 6'3" and 230 lbs. I have an intuitive, deeply ingrained, trained-in sense of what it would take for a choke to work on a body like mine.

There's no way on God's green Earth that Chauvin killed that man. The trapezius is a huge muscle protecting the back of the neck. Chauvin would have to weigh 1000 lbs to kill him with that knee. It's just not possible

It had to be the drugs, COVID, or some combination.

 

[Yttrium]

You couldn't get a tap from that on the mat, much less kill a man, with a knee in that position. Much less 140 lb Chauvin on 230 lb Floyd. I'm 6'3" and 230 lbs. I have an intuitive, deeply ingrained, trained-in sense of what it would take for a choke to work on a body like mine.

There's no way on God's green Earth that Chauvin killed that man. The trapezius is a huge muscle protecting the back of the neck. Chauvin would have to weigh 1000 lbs to kill him with that knee. It's just not possible

It had to be the drugs, COVID, or some combination.

That's called an "argument from incredulity".

Strange that the medical examiner thinks otherwise. I mean, if it's so glaringly obvious, why don't the medical professionals involved agree with you?

Keep in mind that you don't have to close off the windpipe. You just have to restrict breathing enough to prevent enough oxygen getting in and enough carbon dioxide getting out, such as by preventing the chest from expanding.

And I miss your previous avatar.

 

[KarateCowboy]

That's called an "argument from incredulity".

Strange that the medical examiner thinks otherwise. I mean, if it's so glaringly obvious, why don't the medical professionals involved agree with you?

It's an argument from expertise and experience. If the medical experts don't agree because applying choke holds is outside their area of expertise. I doubt those doctors could begin to tell me how to do a basic collar choke or rear naked.

Keep in mind that you don't have to close off the windpipe. You just have to restrict breathing enough to prevent enough oxygen getting in and enough carbon dioxide getting out, such as by preventing the chest from expanding..

That technique can't do that. Not the way he was doing it with the upper shin on the shoulder blade. Not with his weight. You couldn't get a tap from that.

 

[Yttrium]

It's an argument from expertise and experience. If the medical experts don't agree because applying choke holds is outside their area of expertise. I doubt those doctors could begin to tell me how to do a basic collar choke.

It's not a case of a choke hold. It's a case of restricting breathing. Like I said, you can do that just by preventing the chest from expanding. Keep in mind there were other cops helping to pin Floyd to the concrete, including one on Floyd's lower back.

That technique can't do that. Not the way he was doing it with the upper shin on the shoulder blade. Not with his weight. You couldn't get a tap from that.

I think you could get a tap from several guys holding you down with your hands handcuffed behind your back. But I don't know about the rules in your league.

 

[KarateCowboy]

It's not a case of a choke hold. It's a case of restricting breathing. Like I said, you can do that just by preventing the chest from expanding. Keep in mind there were other cops helping to pin Floyd to the concreted, including one on Floyd's lower back.

That's still not gonna cut it. A knee pin like he did is not going to cut it. And he's on trial. Not the whole group. If the whole group were on trial for collectively squishing the life out of him then it would be more complicated. I'm not familiar with group squish techniques.

I think you could get a tap from several guys holding you down with your hands handcuffed behind your back. But I don't know about the rules in your league.

No striking, biting, scratching, or pulling hair, ears or nose. Pretty much anything else goes. Arm bars, triangle chokes, wrist locks, heel hooks, leg locks, collar chokes, sleeve chokes, or sit on his chest, etc. You can even choke the guy with his own belt. Sure, three or so guys holding me down is a no-win situation, but it's not inherently dangerous.

New study: More evidence against the myth of ‘restraint asphyxia’

Lo, and behold:
Overwhelming scientific evidence has found that restraining an arrestee in the prone position does not create an exceptional risk of serious injury or death.

And I miss your previous avatar.

It's good to know someone liked it.

 

[Yttrium]

That's still not gonna cut it. A knee pin like he did is not going to cut it. And he's on trial. Not the whole group. If the whole group were on trial for collectively squishing the life out of him then it would be more complicated. I'm not familiar with group squish techniques.

Uh huh. Well, let's see if the defense uses your argument.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Any decent grappler (wrestling, judo, bjj, etc) can make it hard to breath by putting a ton of pressure on your chest and abdomen while avoiding your neck entirely.

Just noticed your post.

Been doing BJJ since 2011. You can do what we at my school call a "Newtonian Submission" by sitting on the stomach or lower rib cage, provided you're comparable weight. Chauvin's knee across the shoulder blade and partial back/side of the neck could not get a tap, much less kill him. Especially at the given weights. Mr. Floyd was 6'6" and 230, and Chauvin is 140, I'm told. I'm 6'3" and 230 lbs. I regularly roll with guys Chauvin's size and one guy at my gym is the same height and weight as Floyd. I could do that knee pinch to him all day and not even get a tap, much less kill the guy. And I'm 90 lbs heavier than Chauvin. If I tried that and said I was going for a choke with it my teammates would look at me like I'm the village idiot.

Chauvin didn't kill Floyd. Not a chance.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Uh huh.

Now there is an argument from incredulity.

And, in case you missed it:


New study: More evidence against the myth of ‘restraint asphyxia’

Overwhelming scientific evidence has found that restraining an arrestee in the prone position does not create an exceptional risk of serious injury or death.

 

[Yttrium]

Now there is an argument from incredulity.

And, in case you missed it:


New study: More evidence against the myth of ‘restraint asphyxia’

Overwhelming scientific evidence has found that restraining an arrestee in the prone position does not create an exceptional risk of serious injury or death.

I'm not incredulous, I'm skeptical. You may have a point. The medical professionals may have a point. I'm kinda leaning with the medical professionals on this, but there's room for doubt.

I'm always skeptical.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I'm not incredulous, I'm skeptical. You may have a point. The medical professionals may have a point. I'm kinda leaning with the medical professionals on this, but there's room for doubt.

I'm always skeptical.

Fair enough. Healthy pinch of skepticism -- it keeps the moderates moderate.

Truth be told: I'd studied half a dozen martial arts before doing BJJ. I thought "Sure. Just another martial art. I'll take it like water off a duck". BOY was I wrong. How little did I know how much I did not know.

It's a good sport, too. You should try it. One of my regular training partners is a little older than you and just started. He loves it.